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Actually the new Mudclient app that KaVir developed for us,  provides some very nice maps on line, not just on the zones that have maps on the website, but of ALL zones.

So all you've got to do is to download Mushclient and the app, and then start using it. There is a thread somewhere that gives detailed instructions, I haven't got time to find it right now, but I'll add the link later.

I totally recommend it, I'm using it myself, and it has really enhanced the Mud interface for me. At present there is a slight bug with tghe "ordinary" maps, (i.e. the zones that don't use the Wilderness code), but I expect that to be fixed as soon as I can get Once off his lazy butt.

I think it would be good to consider exactly why people want to level.

My reasons for levelling were: No emphasis on PK - and GM makes it easy to explore the gameworld. Need to bear in mind that 4D is more focused on Questing. In that case, keeping the skills for the last 8 remorts without any other changes would lead to certain combinations being chosen over the rest. I'd say Priest and Thief, only because of buffs, "pick", decent speed and damage.

I..kind of have a database too, but to be honest, would it really help that much? In some sense, most of the good EQ / Items / Subskills come from quests...

I can TeX up maps and make them look colourful, but that's to the extent of it..

Yep, there is that.

We can at least start with simple information, help commands etc. Also many items - stats and such. That's the big task, items and stats in a searchable format - searchable per zone/time-area/stat etc etc. Hello databasing crazyness...

But yknow, "all our powers combined", etc etc... It's doable.

I know Drupal has a wiki module, maybe I'll look into whether we can get that set up. Might be easier just to set up a mediawiki install altogether for it. Ideally it'd be hosted on the 4d domain itself, but the issue is really how much do we give away. Several clans have lists of alot of great items, where to get them, etc. The issue is finding the balance between providing good information and making the game too easy.

Other MUDs and games have many knowledge databases - wiki pages and dedicated websites for items, stats, quest NPCs, shops, trainers, etc.

We do not. Obviously because it would be such a MAMMOTH task to put together.

I remembered, before I went - yknow - AFK for 2 years or so, that I was going to start collecting stats and information and start building a site to hold all that and present it in a clear and searchable form.


I now realise, that's way too big-a-task for just one person.

For starters, the functionality we would want in this requires a nicely coded site. Or we could just set up a wiki page, that could work? And maybe then people could assist in inputting information....

I know it would be great, and be great for help files too. Sometimes I forget commands, or maybe a player wants some suggestions or ideas as to what equipment pieces they should try to look for, etc.

As long as the information doesn't give away quests, and sticks to the informative side of things, I think this would be a really good idea...

I may keep working on what I already have, at the very least - I'll end up with a nice little 4D Handbook, which should be helpful considering I always forget everything... :p

I still have a squiz at the maps on 4D, just because I like trying to picture where everything would be structured visually...

But I was wondering, is there anyone out there that has awesome graphic design skills that could maybe update the maps, include some of the new places, and maybe look a bit shinier than MS paint-drawn ones?

Players like knowledge and pretty maps like that, they really do. Media and marketing has a lot to do with game success, maybe it'd help if we tried to improve ours?

I could give it a go myself, but I'm not so sure my graphic design skills are good enough

Example:

http://4dimensions.org/files/Medieval.jpg

"Perhaps clearing up some of the older zones would be neat, and reworking the maps to force people into new territory may help some, but I think some people don’t like being forced to travel to new areas (probably about as much as some people dislike socials – aka: forced emotes).  The story behind 4D would actually make for a great reason for areas to appear and disappear over time – the dimensional portals have shifted and suddenly new lands have emerged while old ones have been found.  We could make it a regular thing to shift around areas, but then our website maps are virtually useless.  *shrug*"

Well said. I really like the idea of shifting portals and whatnot, that's nifty.


"While I could agree with the less favoritism, it seems like you mean less IMM friendliness here.  Which is something I have to disagree with.  One of the reasons I stayed on 4D is because both Molly and Mordecai showed an honest interest personally when I (as a level 4(?) maybe newbie pointed out that there seemed to be a problem with the dogcart in the Old West section of the mudschool.   I admit, I was awed (I was only level 4 or so and probably only been on the mud for a couple of hours and an IMM was answering my question personally) but it stuck with me to the point that this day (10+years later) I can still tell you that it was 1) Molly AND Mordecai and 2) the exact thing that happened.  Their involvement that day made me realize that they cared enough to personally see to it.  Though, I must admit that Mord probably thought I was a nag after that since every time I saw him I asked what was up with it."

I don't mean less niceness and friendliness, but I do mean take a step back a bit, and definitely less favouritism. The way I remember (maybe about 12 years ago), there was a line between mortals and immortals. There really was. And it helped the game environment. I know the players are 'supposed' to bring the environment, but the IMMs have a part in it too. And their role, as owners and runners of the mud, needs to show some boundaries too...

It's *great* that everyone wants to pitch in and help and grow the world, but the 'negative' effect of this is generally that people stop actually -playing- the game, and start -working- on it instead, and then eventually they stop doing that.

We don't really have much authority in 4D. There's not many set consequences to many actions. Some set rules or set flags don't even mean anything anymore. A game environment needs it's boundaries. If we have everything we want, what's the motivation to do anything else?

-----

"I admit, I thought of this the other day and realized that as a new player with a lot of the comments going on over gossip, I wouldn’t stay.  I mean, really, if I was going to make my feelings known about the people with what they say over gossip, most of the players would probably think I hate them.  I don’t.  I do hate what’s said, but then it all falls under “freedom of speech” and  “adult things”.  But it also falls under the “don’t act like an ass” and “be mature about the freedom we give you.”  Which wins?  It’s also because of what’s going on over gossip that I want to finish all the projects I have going on the build port.  Because, once I’m done there, I’ll feel free to move on to someplace else if it all keeps up (yes, I have considered just saying “hell with it” and drop all projects, but I’m not that type of person and I am more invested in this place than it sometimes seems.  It seems to die down once in a while, but then we get people that start it up again.  I understand that some people like that sort of thing, but there are also some that don’t and I wish we could give everyone a chance before we start pounding on them – or letting them into the “family secret” of rudeness and namecalling and other general abuse."

+1. I definitely wouldn't stay as a new player. I would think "Small playerbase, people talking shit over gossip, and no one leaving recall. Screw this, I'ma do something else". I'm not saying everyone would think this, but I'm sure at least some would.



-- RE Once's post...

Perhaps you're misunderstanding what's being said and attempting to change the argument. No one was suggesting a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" mindset, but some of the attitude on open channels - particularly when it's repeated over, and over and over, isn't going to encourage new players. Your spamming to insult and irritate people is just lame and doesn't help anything at all. You don't even roleplay any of it, so it's not an IC thing. Ever since this topic has come up, you've been repeatedly making comments and jokes about how you need to censor what you say and how to ZOMG NOT BE MEAN ON GOSSIP. It's that kind of pathetic attitude that just annoys people and degrades the environment.

You think you're helping Once, and I'm sure - in many ways you are. You used to be a great player. But now, all you do, is sit around at recall and talk and spam people, mainly to get reactions. If you want to help the game, why not try jump into it again. Many people would assist you getting started if you needed it, I'm sure. I could spare a few items even, perhaps.



Personally I think it is totally awesome that so many of out old players want to do something active about improving our game mechanics. Not just sit around at Recall griping about it, but making a genuine effort, doing advanced research, suggesting elaborate improvement plans etc. and also helping some of the ideas come true by practical work on the game - coding, building, bugfixing...
And I find it positively uplifting, that some of those that are putting most effort into the improvement movement are players that at one time or other were labelled "Troublemakers".

+1. I wasn't saying anything different, my apologies if it came across that way. I was trying to say, though, that the mud has a very "Open-source Project" feel to it, rather than feeling like it's a game to be played and delved into. Does that make any sense?...



"Apart from that, I have to say that "depth" mostly must come from the players themselves, it's not something us imms can and will force down your throats.

If you dislike the tone on the open channels, try to improve it by setting better examples, and by not rising to obvious baits.

If you want more new players to stay, talk to them, help them, and try to involve them in the community whenever you see them.

If you want more everyday roleplay to happen, start out by roleplaying yourself, and try to drag others into the habit.

If you have ideas for some larger RP event, like some that we ran in the past, share the ideas with the staff, and we'll provide you with whatever support is needed, as long as it is within realistic frames.

In short - don't sit around waiting for others to do things.
10+ years of mudding have taught me that the best way to get things done, is to do them yourself."

-- +1.

In addition... I think there's too much of a "development" atmosphere in 4d. Too much talk of testing, bad files, coding, or ideas to improve the mud. Whilst all very valid, it takes away from the feel of 4d being a game, rather than some open-source work in progress.

I would seriously suggest cutting back on the openness of development in 4d, and try to be IMMs in game, and leave the rest for behind the scenes, yknow?

Personally I think it is totally awesome that so many of out old players want to do something active about improving our game mechanics. Not just sit around at Recall griping about it, but making a genuine effort, doing advanced research, suggesting elaborate improvement plans etc. and also helping some of the ideas come true by practical work on the game - coding, building, bugfixing...
And I find it positively uplifting, that some of those that are putting most effort into the improvement movement are players that at one time or other were labelled "Troublemakers".

I have a hard time believing that our openness about wanting to improve the game would turn any new players off, in fact I believe that we have the open discussion to thank for much of the resurrection that the game has experienced. Let's not forget that about a year ago, 4D was practically dead, now we regularly peak around 15 players.

Still, Natalya has a point when it comes to lack of atmosphere and depth. I don't agree that a good way to deal with it would be removing some of the older zones however, even though I can admit that many of them are not up to our current standards. But I'd rather adress that in the same way that we have up till now - by systematically updating the oldest zones, adding more extra descs and quests to make them more interesting and renew the interest in those that don't get visited much nowadays.

Apart from that, I have to say that "depth" mostly must come from the players themselves, it's not something us imms can and will force down your throats.

If you dislike the tone on the open channels, try to improve it by setting better examples, and by not rising to obvious baits.

If you want more new players to stay, talk to them, help them, and try to involve them in the community whenever you see them.

If you want more everyday roleplay to happen, start out by roleplaying yourself, and try to drag others into the habit.

If you have ideas for some larger RP event, like some that we ran in the past, share the ideas with the staff, and we'll provide you with whatever support is needed, as long as it is within realistic frames.

In short - don't sit around waiting for others to do things.
10+ years of mudding have taught me that the best way to get things done, is to do them yourself.