The CRAFT System

[Virisin]

I think I've said all I can on the subject..

[Prometheus]

<Begin of rant> Mutters about having to read long posts. Can't we keep it simple? <End of Rant>

On to my views.

Are we going to treat subskills as subskills or skills? Since Horus is going to make skill trees do we really need subskills anymore? I'm more than willing to do things with subskills but I feel it would be best to wait till Horus is done with his stuff so it will be easier to code and not do something in the meantime only to have it removed when Horus does his stuff.

So the big questions are:
1) Will subskills stay as subskills or will they be moved to a special skill tree?
2) And how much variety do we want? ie coding wise since we only have 3 active coders with Thotter and Horus being way better than I am at coding things so basically 2.25 coders My concern is time to put in for this. Since we have dg scripting how much coding will be needed?

Prometheus

[Kvetch]

3. The idea behind the crafting system I presented was to achieve player interaction, by involving several different crafters in the production of each major item. I don't quite agree with Kvetch's picture of a player running round from crafter to crafter to improve his basic sword however.
What I had in mind was rather that the player would seek out the local Forge, to put an order for the sword with the weaponsmith, and said weaponsmith would then do the running around to collect the parts, or perhaps buy the parts in advance from other crafters. After a couple of days the customer would return to collect his order. That would be the IC way of doing it.
Again the small player base is a problem.

To me this basically doesn't sound like a player run system with player interaction.  This is one person going to a forge (shop) and putting in an order for a sword.  Unless that forge is the (crafter) player (who in my example was the crafter that could work the iron into the blade in the first place) in which case, my example of the sword is basically correct except for the fact it is the weaponsmith running around instead of the player that wanted the sword.  Who does the running around I was thinking was moot.  The fact that it involved other players to better a weapon is what I was trying to get at.

And, since I don't know how to put in another quote from another post, I'll just type the quote here:

Horus:
"A master armourer cannot create eq that has slots, so this could be a limiting factor to stop the botting."

So, basically crafting an item is pointless since it's not worth anything more than basic shop eq.  yippee.    Remind me to go elsewhere for my crafting where crafters can actually DO something worthwhile other than take up CPU time and space. 

What I read of Tochy's gem idea, I like it as something in addition to crafting.  Which is something in addition to questing.

Can I point out something here?  I'm not asking that crafters be able to make the almighty 12d12+200 almighty weapon of mass destruction that you can quest for by xxxxx quest (yes, that is an exaggeration in many senses of the word - aka: I'm not asking that crafters can make artifact quality weapons).  I am asking that *if* you put in crafting, make it worthwhile in its own right AS WELL AS having it help out questors.  Questors are able to quest for an item that has 3 gem slots available?  Well let crafters make items that can hold up to two gemslots.  Just because something is a quest item (spurs -1armor, +1HR,+1DR) doesn't mean that a crafter shouldn't be able to make something similar.  If I decide to make a quest that gives out a necklace that gives +1AC, does that automatcially make it so that a crafter can not make a +1AC item - because you can get that through a quest?

[Tynian]

Can I point out something here?  I'm not asking that crafters be able to make the almighty 12d12+200 almighty weapon of mass destruction that you can quest for by xxxxx quest (yes, that is an exaggeration in many senses of the word - aka: I'm not asking that crafters can make artifact quality weapons).  I am asking that *if* you put in crafting, make it worthwhile in its own right AS WELL AS having it help out questors.  Questors are able to quest for an item that has 3 gem slots available?  Well let crafters make items that can hold up to two gemslots.  Just because something is a quest item (spurs -1armor, +1HR,+1DR) doesn't mean that a crafter shouldn't be able to make something similar.  If I decide to make a quest that gives out a necklace that gives +1AC, does that automatcially make it so that a crafter can not make a +1AC item - because you can get that through a quest?

Actually, why not let crafters make artifact quality items but with a long crafting related quest, no timer but you won't be able to make another one just like it. Yeah I dont' like quests normally, but that could be interesting

[Tocharaeh]

What I am seeing here is people trying to get out of questing. You know, I'm not much of a quest oriented player either. I like enchanting, rping, and being a recall junkie. I always have. Questing is just a ends that I reach when I indulge in my favorite 4D hobby of all, mapping. There isn't a maze I can't crack, and a zone I can't map, no matter how badly structured it is.

Crafting cannot, and I repeat cannot become this brand new pathway that people can take instead of using their noggin' once in a while. You're trying to make it "worthy" of producing good eq by...questing? I don't get it. Just friggin quest. 4D has a billion and one zones, and quests to match. And then trying to follow up with "give them shops" to make tokens from players...

So let me get this straight. A player spends 3 weeks in Midlands, gets everything done honky dory and then is expected to pay you tokens for an item you spent far less time in making? Crafting in no way is going to ever equal time for time, minute for minute what players spend when they quest. Never. No way around it. There is zero reason why a crafter should be able to do LESS work than a quester, and be expected to come out practically on top.

4D is a quest mud. Don't like it? Get over it. yeah they're hard. some of them even harder. But if I had to do it, so should you. And I am far from the best quester. I am no Jason. I am no Exodus. I am a Tocharaeh who gets by on what he can. You can too.

Crafting should be made purely for alterations, and slight enhancements. However, I am willing to meet you have way. I think that crafters should be able to make an "ultimate creation". These ultimate items are very rare, and it requires the person to reach such a point where they are completely in touch with their muse, and can bring to the world a highly unique item.  So there would be a possibility of the following event to occure: ( know you guys love these)

Muse places a guardian long sword in the fire.
Muse places a couple bricks of steel alloy in the fire.
Muse stokes the fires.
Muse presses down on the billows, to feed the fire.
The tang of the guardian longsword glows a bright red.
Muse presses down on the billows to feed the fire.
The cubes of alloy glow a bright red.
Muse carefully removes the guardian longsword from the fire.
Muse begins to refold the steel tang.
Muse cools down the tang in the bucket of water.
Muse places the guardian longsword back in the fire.
Muse presses down on the billows.
The guardian longsword begins to glow a bright red.
Muse removes the guardian longsword from the fire.
Muse places the sword on the anvil.
Muse removed the steely alloy from the fire.
Muse places the alloy on the the anvil.
Muse through a series of careful folding, melds the tang with the new alloy.
Muse is working really hard.
Muse continues to hammer down on the guardian longsword.
Muse looks as if he has a new idea.
Possibility A)Muse changes his mind.
This could happen now and then through the process, and ultimately end with him reforging the guardian longsword based upon choices within the crafting system
Possibility B)]Muse feels a strong inner instinct pour from his soul.
This would lead into the making of a brand new item, that would be special and akin to quest gear.

What is the catch? There can only be one such item in existence at any point in time. Or maybe two. Point is is that there is a limit, and until they maxload is back at 0, that person wont make any more of those because that person has given every ounce of creative instinct that they had.

That's it on my crafting rant. I'm sticking to my earlier post on how I think the systems should work. This post is just to elaborate on the earlier one further.


OH, and I'd say only let them make one gem slot. Two is just way too close to the qeq. People will think "Who needs three if I have two already. I'm fine with two.". Yeah, no. We need to keep these systems as far away from questing as possible so that questing does not lose it's life.

[Virisin]

if players could wear something like 5 crafted items, and crafted items could actually be BETTER than quest equipment but also be timered. Much like tinkers now.

What do people think of this?

[Kvetch]

Ah, I can finally contribute in something in this discussion. While I cant add anything to the finer points of crafting, what I can say is crafting trees should be available to all classes. However, crafting should not be treated as separate from the normal class skill/spell trees, nor should anyone receive more pracs to compensate for these extra trees. What I mean by this is, the number of pracs issued will allow a player to prac 8 ranks in each skill/spell, so lets say for argument's sake, this totals 200 pracs. Now we expand on crafting into many crafting trees - I still say we leave the players with 200 pracs, and its up to them to decide whether they want to be a full time adventurer, or a full time crafter, or a combination of both.

The logic is simple - someone adventuring wont have the time or the exposure to build great pieces of armour, compared to someone who makes armour every single day. As they increase in ranks in a particular craft, they are able to use magical materials to create pieces of work - so for example, rank 10 armourers may be able to use composite steel to create full plate armour, whereas rank 15 may be able to use mithril, and embed magical components (either in the forms of magical gems, or other pieces) to their own creations. The higher the rank, the higher the "effects" are. A rank 15 armourer may be able to embed a gem that gives someone a rank 5 stoneskin innate, but a master armourer doing the same thing may result in a rank 15 stoneskin innate.

While I agree with this is spirit, I would also hope that crafting would be something that someone who has reached max level (100 or 200 or whatever the max level is going to be) could do to keep themselves busy while they idle (because you know they'll become recall squatters).

[Virisin]

I think that is a horrendous idea. Crafting shouldn't be something people just do while they idle at recall if you also expect crafted items to be good. This just proves something I've always thought about crafting, people use it to pretend their playerbase is more active than it actually is. Getting to level 100 and then idling at recall is just the same as getting to level 100 and then idling whilst crafting at recall. It reminds me of not counting blacks on a census or something and pretending your literacy rate is much better than it actually is.

[Virisin]

Also, I'm ridiculously overtired and don't actually want that to come across as hostile or anything.. I just can't tell if it is or not because of the above-mentioned overtired thing.