The Gross Imbalance That Is Race

[Jaros]

I'm going to keep raising this because it really is not a difficult fix.

The fighting bonuses/attributes that individual races get are:

a) Horribly imbalanced.
A dwarf gets +40 defence, +10 attack and -10% melee damage.  The attack and defense do not even come close to balancing the negative melee damage.

b) Horribly restrictive.
An elf gets -10% melee damage, +10% magic damage, -40 defense and +15 attack (and 50 speed more than other races).  In this case the +magic/-melee do balance each other, but all that achieves is forcing elves to stereotype themselves as casters.  Someone who chooses elf and wants to play melee classes (read: HAS to if they want GM) is severely disadvantaged.

I have been trying to think of a wonderful way races can be made unique and wonderful without affecting peoples' fighting ability but alas I just can't do it.  Graham suggested giving each race a crafting ability, which would be great if at some point in the future we get a crafting system.  Until then there is simply no reason for these 'bonuses/attributes' to exist.

Therefore I again suggest removing them, leaving all races with +100 speed and ~3 unique wear_locs and nothing else.  No +/- damage, no attack bonus, no extra defense.  All players should start on an even footing.

[Bane]

If you are going to remove it i would like to see us be given a choice Kinda like how we use to be able to pick bonuses upon character creation.

Either we can be neutral or take +%10 melee and - 10% magic or +10% magic and -10% melee

I wouldn't worry much about the +attack and defense I dont think it does all that much.

Just a thought.

And I wouldnt say its a severely disadvantaged either with the way it is now, but it does sterotype each race to a certain class.

Id rather see us be given the option than remove it.

[Virisin]

if people are given the option then every elf would go neutral and every spacewolf / centaur would keep the bonuses?

[Jaros]

A one time choice between a melee or magic bonus?  Why?

If you want a damage bonus then come up with a system that is actually interesting that allows you to earn it.  Then make your case in another thread.

This thread isn't really about coming up with alternatives.  It's about removing a useless unbalanced system.

And I wouldnt say its a severely disadvantaged either with the way it is now, but it does sterotype each race to a certain class.

As a melee spacewolf you do +15% damage relative to baseline.  As a melee elf I do -10% damage relative to baseline.  You do the math and tell me how we stack up against each other.

I feel for the newbies who have no idea how game changing their third choice at creation could turn out to be.

[Tocharaeh]

The honestly worst part about the race natural bonus system is that it was brought into 4D. We don't have a set class/remort system where you choose your path and stick with it for nearly forever. Instead, we are constantly changing, and remorting (true 4d style) endlessly.

I'm fine with just removing them entirely, and keeping the unique wear_loc we have for each race.

[Bane]

A one time choice between a melee or magic bonus?  Why?

Why not? We use to have a system sort of like this, and it was taken away. But theres plenty of people around that still have the benefits of those bonus stats.

Plenty of games have special bonuses on character creation. Why does everyone have to be the same copy of everyone else.

If you want a damage bonus then come up with a system that is actually interesting that allows you to earn it.  Then make your case in another thread.

why? Why make it something everyone can get. Once again its just making everyone be the exact same copy of everyone else on the mud.

This thread isn't really about coming up with alternatives.  It's about removing a useless unbalanced system.

Oh so people can only post if they totally agree with you? Not just partially agree, and point out where they dont agree at?

As a melee spacewolf you do +15% damage relative to baseline.  As a melee elf I do -10% damage relative to baseline.  You do the math and tell me how we stack up against each other.

Its not a huge disadvantage at all, You act like getting through melee cause of this is unbearable. With my gear I might do 1k-1.5k more damage per encircle over an elf with the same gear. For people who dont have the best gear in this game they would only notice 100-500  more damage if they was a spacewolf over an elf.

I feel for the newbies who have no idea how game changing their third choice at creation could turn out to be.

Its no different than them choosing which race to play now. Our character creation is quite easy compared to other muds. and thirdly that choice is not going to be a complete game changer.

[Jaros]

Ehhhhhh.

I wasn't arguing with your idea.  I dismissed your idea because it distracts from the point of the thread, which is to remove the ridiculous race imbalances.

[Bane]

Ill post to clear this up, I agree with removing of the racial bonuses.

My other point should be started on its own thread.

[Tocharaeh]

Also, need to get rid of !race flags on items. Friggin stupid, and also creates an imbalance up until someone finally adds a new zone and makes something new.

[Jaros]

So for months now I've been wanting to create new characters to play but these restrictive race imbalances suck all of the joy out of it.  Fortunately that seems an easy fix that no one is opposed to!!! 

[Virisin]

SPACEWOLF: melee damage = damage*1.15
                  magic damage = damage*0.8

DWARF:       melee damage = damage*0.9
                  magic damage = damage*0.9

ELF             melee damage = damage*0.9
                  magic damage = damage*1.1
   
MARTIAN      magic damage = damage*1.05
                  melee damage = damage*1.05

CENTAUR      melee damage = damage*1.10
                  magic damage = damage*1.10
      

[Virisin]

I think removing the race_dam_mod function would be easy.

[Virisin]

Some races don't even get bonuses and some are randomly both +ve whereas some are both -ve.

[Kvetch]

The races that don't get bonuses are probably the ones that are considerded "base races" that everything else is based off.  The problem with this is, of course, why play something that doesn't have bonuses when you can play something that does?  D and D changed this in their 3. System by giving the bace races a different type of bonus.  While others may have infravision, darkvision, dex bonus, whatever, the base race (human) learns things faster.  So there is still a reason to play that base race now.  How this could be adapted to 4D, I don't know.  I was just pointing out something - I think.

[Jaros]

Applying damage bonuses/compromises at creation is the worst time to do it.  If we remove race_dam_mod now we can concentrate on developing elemental and weapon proficiencies that improve through use and eventually accomplish a more balanced version of what these were originally meant to be.  Prom, Once, Thotter?  One of you must be capable of removing them..