Author Topic: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.  (Read 41002 times)

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Offline Iwku

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2008, 04:04:37 am »
The forum topic on skill/stat distribution was started on Feb 25th and ended on Apr 22nd. Now, here it is just a few weeks later (May 13th) and the system is already implemented. I didn’t know I felt so strongly about this topic until it was implemented so quickly and I felt the reality of it. I realized in reading Grish’s feedback that I feel exactly the same way.  And, like him, I will give it more of a try but also might just stay at my level when I get to T4, Level 50 (and make the decision to be resigned to not experience some of the more difficult, interesting areas of the game).

This is lengthy.

The people who get the raw end of this deal are the people who are new and the people who do not have all the free time to spend to exploring all of the zones in the game. Just saying a certain skill/spell is in a dimension to a new player is a lot of hard work for them to go explore.  The game has over 150 zones.

The idea was to make more people go out and explore, and find trainers. This does not affect people who have been playing a long time or people who already have all the skills they want (and not going to level anymore).  Even a few of the older players who just log on to have some fun have said they won’t be remorting anymore because they don’t have the time to go out and search all the zones for certain spells or skills.

The new system gives an unfair advantage to the new player versus the older high level player. The older player just put time into levelling their character but now the newer player, from the beginning are the ones who have to go search and find these skills and spells. It hinders new players/people with little time, and makes leveling harder than it needs to be.

It also harms people who are putting their time into helping improve the game, coders and builders. Being a builder or coder and trying to juggle your mortal character must be time consuming. Then, throwing in that you have to search for spells and skills in a whole dimension can be overwhelming.  And Grish is right, even if you know the area, finding the way to an area is not so easy find and a quest in itself…and then you have to find the trainer.

If you ask me, more and more new players are going to think the same way as Grish and find it ridiculous to try to find these new trainers and have one more thing to keep information on in the game.  Putting at least the area of the dimension of the Tier 3 and 4 spells/skills is not something that’s going to harm the idea behind the new system.

You want players to explore and bring attention to older and dead zones. This will still do it and it will take some of the frustration off having to explore every area in a zone for that one trainer mob.  I’m sure there are trainer mobs in and about every zone. So naming the zone area will bring attention to these zones and make people at least know they are in the right area and make it not so frustrating to the player.

Something else this training system does is hinder players is in questing.  You already have to spend a lot of time questing, then to top it off some of the quest have hard mobs you have to defeat for some reason or another.  But if you don’t have a good list of learned spells and skills it can make the quest frustrating because you just spent all that time finding the quest but now you can’t complete it because you are not strong enough. You shouldn’t have to know every zone and dimension like the back of your hand to be able to have the skills and spells you need to help them finish a quest. This is just going to make questing more frustrating too.

All in all the trainer idea is nice, but I thought the whole point was to get people to explore the zones and not to hinder them and make it more time consuming. Between questing and leveling - that right there is a lot of time to put into the game.  Then, to throw exploring all of these zones to find the one mob that teaches the spell or skill you are looking for just makes it more time consuming. The game is supposed to be fun, not something that is going to aggravate you.


Offline Iwku

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 04:32:10 am »
Just one brief comment.

There have been a few suggestions that if you want to know what a skill/spell does then to try a gladiator.  Well, it's not that simple. 

I tried playtesting a gladiator and my gladiator was a different class than I knew.  It wasn't so much fun because I didn't know how to use the skills or spells in that class. So I spent most of my time trying to understand the skill rather than trying fighting strategies.

My understanding of gladiator, is so players can have a good, fun fight regardless of what level they are in the game. But it isn't fun or a fair fight if you are trying to learn the skills at the same time, and the other person knows the skills. And with this new system, it'll take forever to learn the skills/spells.

Sometimes, I think you people are wanting the game to be more of a challenge than it is and forget that for newer players, this game is already a HUGE challenge. And that adding much tougher changes like mob-specific training is just a deterent.  It's hard enough arriving in this game ...actually it's intimidating...half the people are GM or are imm alts.  I love this game, for many reasons. I've been here regularly for just about a year, but it's starting to get too hard...out of my league.

Offline Molly

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 06:00:00 am »
Guys, guys...
Let's not make things any more complicated, intimidating  and dramatic than they really are.

There are hundreds of skulls and spells in 4D. As someone already pointed out, you don't need all of them to get along very nicely in the game, (unless you aim to be a top PK, in which case the extra edge of some top skills might make the difference. Which is exactly why those top skílls shouldn't be too easy to acquire). In fact, you don't even need some of them at all, since there are substitutes and players have different strategies and preferences when playing. How many of the skills that players have do you think they actually use?

In a way I am glad this discussion about the Trainers came up, since that gives me a chance to bring up a very common misunderstanding - people who think that the 'harder' zones are filled with high-level aggressive mobs that you 'have to' kill.

With very few exceptions this is not so. The only exceptions I can think of offhand are the three so called Uber Zones, (Prehistoric Forest, Dark Planet and Dragon Caves) and possibly also Troll Forest. And if you find any trainers at all in those zones they will be for very high Tier skills.

The rest of the 'harder' zones are 'hard' more in the meaning that they may be a bit tricky to get through, and require some brain work. They usually have more of the undisplayed portals and containers, some of them have tricky mazes, they may have hints buried in the listen/smell or look behind/under/above descs, and they generally have more and harder quests. This makes them more interesting, and more challenging to explore. But you don't have to be a GM, or even tier 4 to get through them - with some normal precaution you can play them quite comfortably as a tier 1, level 50 player, There are actually very few high level aggros in 4D, and the ones that exist are mostly sentinel and can easily be avoided. Quest mobs are generally high level or have a regen script, because we don't really want them to be killed by all and sundry, Quest mobs are meant to be talked to and interacted with, not killed.

Quest heavy zones, like Fenizia, the Egypt-Kush-Punt zones, Enchanted Lands, the Aegean Islands, the Alpha Centauri Planets etc. hardly have any aggro mobs at all, and if they do, these can generally be avoided just by using a vehicle. There are also strategy commands, like consider, flee or retreat, you can set your wimpy high, and even if you do occasionally get killed by a mob - come on, how big a deal is that with automeld and recover at your disposal?

Having to kill a high level questmob to get the reward is really more of an exception than a rule. And even so, the main challenge in the Quest is usually to just find that particular mob. If in the end the mob turns out to be a bit too tough for you at your current level, you've still done the main work, and can easily go back and finish the quest when you've gotten a bit stronger.

As for the Gladiators, what is wrong with using a session getting to understand the skills and spells of a new Class, rather than trying fighting strategies? Each time you learn from the experience, and in the end you may have found out things that might make you want to try a certain Class. And once you have got an understanding of how the different Classes work, you may start winning the fights. And even if you lose a Gladiator fight, what does it matter? It doesn't even harm the Gladiator, they cannot lose exp.

The reason we still left the Gladiators open, is mostly to give all players a chance to test the different Classes. So use them as much as you can while they are still open, because it won't last for ever.

And the reason why people stay at Recall or stop remorting instead of exploring and Questing is not that they need to be afraid to get killed, it's just because they are lazy.


Offline Grish

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 09:10:42 am »
Lots of good comments here, and while Molly you do have some good points, those points pretty much go back to experienced player.

I have been playing for roughly 2 months now, and I cant or havent been to half of the zones you listed, and certainly wouldnt go out of my way to find a vehicle, let alone feel comfortable driving it once I found it.

The quest point is a great point, as I used to narrow in on a dimension and get a quest card and randomly go explore a new zone and try to quest, however since this system went in my only accomplishment has been to get the ali babba zone flag.

Offline Xeriuth

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 09:46:09 am »
As is the spells and skills were distributed in the range of the less extreme skills/spells on easy to get to mobs and the most extreme skills/spells on the hard to get to mobs. Already the difficulty of getting the skills/spells was set in place. By making the first tiers have more info than the last ones you are setting more of a greater curve on the difficulty of the last tiers, which is absurd.  As it is every player has been able to train skills/spells easily and now it's more of a chore than it was before.  Soo if it's a chore for those older players who won't remort now because of the inconvenience, this is a pretty big setback for newbies.... Simply give all names and zone names of every skill/spell in the game.

I mean if some players already have a master list why not just give a master list to everyone, the purpose behind doing this is still there.  You tell the the exact name of the mob and zone and the person goes there??? Where's the harm in that?  And as I said the difficulty of the mobs they are on is already set in place so I don't think there's much of an argument in place. 

If you are then pointing out the fact that you wanted the harder to get spells/skills that are used by PK's to be very vague, just add new skills/spells that are PK only if that is an argument. That would promote PK and make it a challenge for them to find. That's only if that's what you're getting at.

And this really does hurt newbies badly again, because every newbie that will play the game in the long run will go straight to to Tier 4 remort and continue to GM as is, but going through Tier 4 is tough enough already havent them search very vaguely makes it even that much longer and more reasons to quit.

Grish is a pretty good player and if this is flustering him then it's really flustering other newbies and you can count on our playerbase not growing if that's the case.  This is only an enjoyable feature currently for us older players not younger ones... that's just what I think about this.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2008, 11:58:06 am »
Okey, there seems to be a consensus that we should improve the info about where to find the Trainers, so I guess that's what we'll do then.

We can display the info in several ways.
First and foremost by posting full - (or almost full ) - lists on the website under Skills and Spells and on the Forum.
We might also add the lists on the walls of the Recall Trainer, or even make a separate room for Trainer info, since not all players read the Forums or homepage.
There is already pretty detailed info about it in Mud School, but it will have to be added to..

I think having full lists as helpfiles will be too spammy, but it's also something that we could consider.
Perhaps the mob names could be coded as an addition to skilllist, but I doubt it's possible

And I guess the helpfiles for the individual skills and spells will have to be worked over once again, which will not please Diandra, who already did a lot of work on them.

And, on that note - before we indulge in any more massive work, let's keep this thread running for a few more days, until we have decided exactly what info w want for each tier of skills and spells.
The Staff already has enough things to do, without having to do the work twice too.

So, let's see some concrete suggestions about how the info should be set up.

Finding the actual zones should not be too hard, since the Map Room has instructions about how to get to each zone in the game, and there are also maps on the Website..



Offline Grish

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2008, 12:09:24 pm »
My opinion like i said would be:
T1-Dimension-Zone-Mobname
T2-Dimension-Zone-Mobname
T3-Zone-Mobname (most common with mobname, better skills w/out)
T4-Zone

T4 Could have a few elite skills with just the dimension
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 12:12:33 pm by Grish »

Offline Virisin

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2008, 03:40:38 pm »
Having both dimension and zone is a bit redundant. If you know the zone, you already know the dimension.

Also, as for new players vs old players. I suggested we should set all skills/spells on every player to 0% and then remove the cost of training for a week or so. Just to put everyone on a par, and then add the costs back. But some lazy oldbies slapped me.

I'm happy for a list of all skills/spells up to tier 3 to have their trainer name and zone listed, and for tier 4 skills/spells to have their zone listed. Now that I think about it, simply running about wildly in all of the zones looking for trainers is a bit odd. The fun in exploring can be knowing where you're trying to go, and going there.

Also, gladiators: there's a list of their passwords on the recall board I think, you should be able to choose whichever class you want.

Offline Virisin

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 03:46:07 pm »
Oh yeah, another thing. I think since we've put a bit more emphasis on exploring over killing, we could lower the total exp tnl for players? Everything is so .. BIG .. atm. I'd like to see everything scaled down a bit, mob HP, mob damage, player damage, player HP, exp, gold.. A bit more realistic.

But yeah, for now, lowering the total exp tnl for everyone would be nice. Or at least making it a more square or cubic relationship. So it's much easier for lower remorts.

Offline Iwku

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2008, 03:52:36 pm »
I like Xeriuth’s idea of giving all the information (Dimension, Zone, mob name), especially as some people have the master list.

Lets take for example the spell ice shield which is taught by the Ice Queen on Bent Planet (This information might not be accurate, it was taken from one of the suggestions on the other post). And lets say it is a Tier 3 or 4 skill (that’s a guess for this example).

The way the system is now, the clue might be “the ice shield trainer is somewhere in the future dimension”.  For the experienced player and GM’s that might be a fun challenge because they would know all the areas and know the trainers are in-character, so would probably be able to guess one or two mobs who it could be and go there and train.  Sort of fun, not too frustrating or time consuming.  And once there, they might have another look around the zone.

For the less experienced player, that information would be useless. It not only presents an insurmountable task to search every zone in the future, but you wouldn’t even know if it is a spell that is one of the ten useful spells for your class or not. If on the other hand, the clue was to see the Ice Queen on Bent Planet in the future that would be hard but obtainable.  I didn’t even know there was a Bent Planet.  At least it would seem like other quests in the game where you have a clue and a shooting chance to complete it. Having the trainer name and location would lead you to a new area, so you wouldn’t feel that it was time wasted. Then once you are there, you could explore and do the quests on Bent Planet.

Offline erwin

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2008, 11:57:11 pm »
How about,

T1- Zone - Mobname
T2 - Zone - Mobname
T3 - Zone

T4 - Hints

I would say that the hints are more to encourage players to go to the map room and look for the zones, and maybe while they are doing so, decide to go to a new zone to level/explore/quest for a change. It's more psychological, I think.

Eg. If Ice Shield was on Bent Planet..

In a far away section of the Galaxy, where everything is warped and mishappen, lies a being which could teach you the locked secrets of ice magic.


Or if Necromunda was where a certain skill is

In a dying city where two rival gangs fight for dominance, and crime is rampant, where the populace are afraid to step out of the homes, there is only one man brave enough to grapple for his own victory. <insert skill here>

At least that would entice players to go look for the zones and maybe play about in them, instead of just saying Ice Queen in Bent Planet for Ice shield. There's nothing to further..draw the player to that zone.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:49:39 am by erwin »

Offline erwin

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2008, 01:07:48 am »
I don't like lowering the xp tnl.

For all the new players I've seen, when they get to a certain level, I always see this message.

A dock worker brags, "Hahaha <New Player>, I just pissed on your corpse."

That, or some such variant.

Offline Molly

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2008, 02:35:14 am »
How about this:

T1 - Zone - Mobname - Location*)
T2 - Zone - Mobname
T3 - Zone
T4 - Hints

*) The 'location' would be info like 'the city Olympia', 'the island Naxos', 'the planet Yudore', since some zones are really large. With the smaller zones obviously no location would be necessary.

I like Erwin's idea about hints. It means a lot of work coming up with and writing those hints, but perhaps we could get some help from the more active players there? Just send the hint suggestions to me, and I'll set up a file for them and probably reward you too.

And thinking about it, if the main object is to get people out exploring, giving the zone might be a good idea. Then people can go to the Map Room to get some directions about how to get to that particular zone. And hopefully find something of interest in it, apart from the Trainer they were looking for.

I still think it's a pity that so many of our best zones are rarely visited, because most people just stay in their old ruts, and then complain about grinding being boring. Of course it's boring, if you never even try to do something new. :P

Offline Virisin

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2008, 03:38:16 am »
Good call. I reckon that works well.

Offline Iwku

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Re: Feedback regarding trainers, from the new guy.
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 04:54:08 am »
I feel almost ready to give up on this topic.

I still don't even understand what prompted the initiative to make this change and why it is a good idea or how it makes the game more fun. The old expression "if something's not broke, don't fix it" seems to apply here.

If the main objective is to get people out exploring...then I don't understand.  New players and players working towards GM mostly are out exploring or trying to collect flags or levelling. The people sitting around at recall are GM's and heros who don't have to worry about finding all these new trainers because they have all their skills/spells.

If giving zone names for trainers is a reason to get people exploring at Tier 3, then why isn't it a good reason at Tier 4?  I can see if you've remorted though 4 or 5 classes you probably should be expected to know the lands better.  But if it is just your second remort class and you need tier 4 skills, you would be struggling with figuring out any "hints" at the map room. 

This game should be fun, not like work.