Author Topic: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked  (Read 22673 times)

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Offline erwin

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Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« on: May 16, 2008, 12:27:53 am »
The fact that spells are badly organised currently is no reason to not make a good change like this to prepare for the future. Spells ARE going to be reorganised, so are skills. Skills/spells are going through quite a big change atm, not just trainers.

Also, the fact that to be good at warrior/hunter/thief you need the 1 uber skill that class has to offer is ridiculous. Hence why we're going to make the classes more unique, and not have them rely on one skill/spell.

As Virisin said, perhaps we could list skills/spells here which are somehow..not up to par for the tier/level?

I'll state a few.

Bow / Crossbow - Damage on bow/crossbow should be worked up a bit.
Detect Magic - Magic items show up when using an identify scroll on an object.
Flank - not finished yet
Forage - RP-like skill..Could it be removed, and say, let it be learnt with an item/mini RP quest or something?
Hamstring - not finished yet
Mana Blast - Takes up way too much mana (1000+) for a 1-2% damage off hp off a T4 level 60 mob. Damage doesn't show on prompt too, so no way to estimate, and some mobs are even immune to it.
Nightmare - Spell doesn't follow helpfile at all, mob doesn't flee. Some damage is dealt though, but there seems to be no damage message at all. Goes like this
You power up a nightmare attack!, and hp is deducted from the enemy. No multiplier shown, but damage is below average (compared to chill touch), plus the spell can only be cast out of combat.
Pick Lock - I don't like this skill, though I guess it should be in for RP reasons, since most doors are unpickable, and those that are pickable, the key is usually in the same room on a guard. I'd like it if it could be upgraded to the same function as knock does, so it could save a skill/spell slot.
Psi Panic - It has a high failure rate, a successful cast either results in nothing, the mob leering at you, or the mob fleeing. While it can be used in combat, after the 8th-or 9th try and you get your opponent to flee, you're probably almost dead. Good thing is that it can be cast on shopkeepers or peaceful rooms, so you can chase that weaponsmith out of Olde Yorke or the Healer out of Recall.
Weaken - Redundant, since chill touch does damage AND reduce strength, AND is a T1L2 spell AND is affected by mind ice.

I'll update this post as more skills/spells are listed.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 11:07:45 am by erwin »

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 12:33:36 am »
Good idea. I think Mord also plans to lay out all the skills/spells at some point in time so he can make them into skills/spells tree's better. Which should help with organisation, but yet, we need to sort out the individual spells that are cruddy.

Ranged skills: They need a mega overhaul, I wish I could remember the idea I had for them ages ago which would be awesome, but I can't. So for now all the skills to do with ranged weapons are useless.


Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 12:57:21 am »
A skill/spell tree would be good for bucket skills..where you only have a max number of % points you can train up to.

Something a la Diablo.

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 01:02:37 am »
If you post a list of all skills/spells in this thread, I'll have a go at replying with all the ones I think are either overpowered, underpowered, or completely redundant.

Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 01:38:58 am »
If you insist

T0 Skills/Spells
drunk -
firearm -

T1 Skills/Spells
backstab -
life transfer -
manifest -
melee -
chill touch -
kick -
mount -
protection from evil -
detect poison -
forsee -
infravision -
mirror shield -
riding -
word of recall -
minor identify -
protection from fire -
steal -
cure blind -
cure light -
hand-to-hand -
blackjack -
shield -
bow -
hide -
confuse -
corrupt armor -
fortify body -
push -
sleep -
sling -
holy word -
filet -
brace -
detect invisibility -
mana shield -
colour spray -
crossbow -
magic missile -
static shield -
create food -
throw -
sweet dreams -
tame -
air elemental -
armor -
detect alignment -
strength -
dual -
rescue -
track -
create water -
forage -
absolve -
burning hands -
harm -
mana transfer -
scan -
shocking grasp -
sneak -
antidote 1 -
cone of cold -
detect magic -
scribe -
battle rage -
fireball -
poison -
sense life -
recharge -
bash -
snare -
grip -
pick lock -

T2 Skills/Spells
clone -
devine mind -
holy strength -
remove curse -
disarm -
cure critic -
teleport -
retreat -
thorn shield -
mounted combat -
bless -
haste -
protection from cold -
weaken -
holy shield -
water elemental -
earthquake -
focus -
water to wine -
dispel evil -
embue armor -
meditate -
parry -
call lightning -
invisibility -
scalp -
knock -
remove alignment -
stoneskin -
lifesuck -
acid arrow -
blindness -

T3 Skills/Spells
tinker -
dodge -
midas touch -
phase -
protection from good -
poison weapon -
summon -
trap aware -
locate object -
berserk -
mind electricity -
mind water -
slip -
advanced melee -
longarm -
sanctuary -
short blade -
fortify -
group shield -
holy shout -
waterwalk -
hold person -
trample -
psi panic -
face -
group armor -
dispel sanctuary -
burning skull -
group recall -
earth elemental -
charge -
joust -
strangle -
charm -
dispel good -
energy drain -
vitalize -
soulsmash -
heal -
chain lightning -
fire shield -
lightning bolt -
animate dead -
enchant weapon -
evil eye -
gate -
smash -
facemelt -
meteor shower -
flame arrow -
flank -
steelskin -
true strike -
manipulate -

T4 Skills/Spells
numb mind -
group heal -
mind fire -
heart squeeze -
curse -
encircle -
hamstring -
master melee -
behead -
cleave -
mind ice -
magic bubble -
electric blast -
inferno -
ice shield -
grapple -
control weather -
fire elemental -
woodsing -
martial arts -
nightmare -
bladedance -
paralyze -
demonshreak -
hyperactivity -
suffocate -
slowness -
mana blast -

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 02:29:58 am »
T0 Skills/Spells
drunk - Good skill. Nicely balanced.
firearm - Ranged weapons are poor.

T1 Skills/Spells
backstab - Good skill.
life transfer - Crappy spell, doubt anyone uses it.
manifest - Good skill.
melee - Good skill.
chill touch - Good spell, quite a lot of use I do believe because it has a good mana cost - power ratio.
kick - Good skill.
mount - Good skill.
protection from evil - Good spell.
detect poison - Meh, I guess there's a point to it.
forsee - Poor buff, something like an extra 20 accuracy or something? I don't even remember what it does so it can't be very good.
infravision - Cool.
mirror shield - Great spell, reflects some damage back from ALL spells, might be a little too strong.
riding - Good skill.
word of recall - Good spell.
minor identify - Crappiest spell out? Top 3 most pointless skills/spells anyway.
protection from fire - Good spell.
steal - Meh, anything worth stealing is on an !steal mob.. Could really do with more depth.
cure blind - Good spell.
cure light - Meh, what's the difference between cure light, cure critic and cure <the other one>.. Heal is awesome, and all of them are crap.
hand-to-hand - Good skill.
blackjack - Good skill.
shield -Good spell idea, but projectiles are crap.
bow - Projectiles lose.
hide - Most annoying skill there is, you never know if you've succeeded or failed, and typing ANYTHING ruins it.
confuse - Good spell I think.
corrupt armor - Good spell I think.
fortify body - Meh, an extra 100ish hp out of like 5500 isn't all that much.
push - Good skill.
sleep - Good spell.
sling - Projectiles lose.
holy word - Average at best, don't think anyone ever uses it?
filet - Waste of a skill slot if you ask me.
brace - Uber skill.
detect invisibility - I'd like to see both invis and detect invis a little harder to get. Currently they're kinda redundant cause everyone has innate of both.
mana shield - Uber spell.
colour spray - I love this spell, but it just never seems to be used. I guess the chance of blindness hitting is too low to be worth the time taken to cast it.
crossbow - Projectiles lose.
magic missile - Great spell as far as mana cost - power ratio goes. I know it used to be my number 1 caster spell.
static shield - Uber spell..
create food - Meh..
throw - Projectiles lose.
sweet dreams - Great spell.
tame - Pointless as mounts are so easy to come by and so cheap.
air elemental - I'm iffy on all elementals really..
armor - Good spell.
detect alignment - If it's not obvious, it's usually neutral. But good I guess.
strength - Good spell.
dual - Good skill.
rescue - Good skill.
track - Cool skill, never seems to work very well though.. I swear I couldn't track an elephant through a china shop. Specially if there was a zone divide in the middle. :|
create water - Meh.
forage - Waste of a skill slot I say.
absolve - Could be cooler if there wasn't such a delay, the idea of absolving someone so their anti-good eq falls off appeals.
burning hands - Not really sure, never used it. Probably because the mana cost - power ratio wasn't good enough.
harm - Great spell, always has a nice multi.
mana transfer - I think I used this once, but it was so dumb.
scan - Great skill.
shocking grasp - Good spell.
sneak - Cool skill, kinda pointless though cept for maybe not spamming recallers.
antidote 1 - Good spell I guess.
cone of cold - Good spell I think.
detect magic - Meh, pretty pointless.
scribe - I always used to abuse scribe, I think it's fixed now though. The idea is cool, the spell itself either sucks or gets abused really.
battle rage - Cool spell.
fireball - Good spell.
poison - Kinda good spell, always nerfed by !poison though, could do with more depth to it.
sense life - Yay, I can see hiding people! But hide sucks and only some mobs ever have it..
recharge - Good spell.
bash - Good skill.
snare - Good skill.
grip - Doubt the buff is actually noticeable.
pick lock - Cool skill, pointless though. Most doors you actually want to pick are !pick.

T2 Skills/Spells
clone - Good spell.
devine mind - Good spell.
holy strength - Good skill.
remove curse - Good spell.
disarm - Good idea, made redundant by the frequent use of the !disarm flag.
cure critic - Meh, see 'cure light'
teleport - Good spell.
retreat - Good skill.
thorn shield - Pretty uber spell, does it need to hit EVERY single time?
mounted combat - Good skill.
bless - Good spell.
haste - Good spell.
protection from cold - Good spell.
weaken - Good spell on players, never seems to make any difference to mobs.
holy shield - Uber spell, probably too uber.
water elemental - Meh to elementals.
earthquake - Great spell.
focus - Poor buff, reminds me of forsee.
water to wine - Idea is cool, if wine wasn't so accessible. We have a binge drinking society, drink to get drunk or not at all. :|
dispel evil - Kinda good spell.
embue armor - Good spell.
meditate - Good skill.
parry - Uber skill/buff.
call lightning - Good spell.
invisibility - Redundant spell, idea is sweet though.
scalp - Good skill.
knock - Never used, but Erwin always talks about it so it must be alright.
remove alignment - Good spell.
stoneskin - Good skill.
lifesuck - Dumb spell.
acid arrow - Ok spell.
blindness - Great spell.

T3 Skills/Spells
tinker - Good skill.
dodge - Uber skill.
midas touch - Average skill.
phase - Uber skill.
protection from good - Good spell.
poison weapon - Average, who wants to add a timer to a good weapon when most of the best weapons have all the flags anyway.. Poison on weapons is so common.
summon - Cool spell. Made redundant by the fact that no one ever groups or needs a recall..
trap aware - Good skill.
locate object - Great spell.
berserk - Alright buff.. Not the best.
mind electricity - Cool spell.
mind water - Cool spell.
slip - Cool idea, but no matter how much weight I give to Gojira he still has 1000000000 speed.
advanced melee - Good skill.
longarm - Good skill.
sanctuary - Uber spell, overused and now redundant.
short blade - Good skill.
fortify - Poor buff.
group shield - Good idea, but projectiles lose.
holy shout - Does anyone even know what this does? It can't be worth the mana cost I guess.
waterwalk - If only there wasn't a handy dinghy at the beginning of every waterway.. Redundant.
hold person - Does it work? If so the idea of a caster snare is kinda cool..
trample - Average skill, the delay if fails is massive, and the delay on the victim is negligeable so the 'bash' effect is nothing.
psi panic - Crappy spell.
face - Good idea but no one groups or fights grouped mobs..
group armor - Good spell.
dispel sanctuary - This is a subskill isn't it? And it sucks.. Never works.
burning skull - Crappy spell I think, I never used it that's for sure.
group recall - If only we had groups. This used to get used a lot.
earth elemental - Meh to elementals.
charge - Good skill.
joust - Good skill.
strangle - Cool skill, havn't tested it since the newest changes to throttle and garotte, but before then it wasn't quite good enough.
charm - Average spell..
dispel good - Good spell.
energy drain - Poor spell. I think the mana cost - power is poor.
vitalize - Good spell.
soulsmash - Poor spell. I never used it for some reason.. I forget why.
heal - Uber spell, probly needs a bigger delay so the tactic for beating Gojira isn't just: tank + spam healer that doesn't fight.
chain lightning - Average spell.
fire shield - Great spell, possible shouldn't work EVERY time?
lightning bolt - Never used it, mana cost - power thingee is probably off.
animate dead - Used to have the coolest bug. Kinda boring now cause followers are kinda stuffy.
enchant weapon - Meh I guess. Good weapons are so easy to come across now that are more than 3dam 3hit it's kinda redundant.
evil eye - See absolve.
gate - If only there wasn't a !gate flag.. It would be a sweet way to PK someone.
smash - I've never seen it work, if it actually does shatter shields, it'd be uber.
facemelt - I used to love it, but I think it's been a bit nerfed, or at least the mana cost - power ratio isn't what it used to be.
meteor shower - Poor spell.
flame arrow - Poor spell.
flank - Cool idea, does it work?
steelskin - Cool spell.
true strike - Cool skill.
manipulate - Cool skill.

T4 Skills/Spells
numb mind - Crappy spell, does anyone use it?
group heal - Uber spell.
mind fire - Good spell.
heart squeeze - Used to be uber spell, not sure what the story is now but I rarely see it used.
curse - Cool spell, but pretty weak debuff.
encircle - Uber skill, too uber.
hamstring - Doesn't work.
master melee - Good skill.
behead - Uber skill, too uber.
cleave - Goo.. Wait no, uber skill, too uber.
mind ice - Good spell.
magic bubble - Uber spell, needs more depth to something so powerful really.
electric blast - Mana cost - power just isn't worth it.
inferno - See electric blast.
ice shield - Great spell if it is fixed.
grapple - Meh, kinda cool, it's never been worth it in a fight though compared to encircle/behead/cleave.
control weather - Good spell.
fire elemental - Meh elementals.
woodsing - Good skill.
martial arts - Weak buff.
nightmare - Weak spell.
bladedance - Weak buff.
paralyze - Weak debuff.
demonshreak - Used to be uber, not really anymore though I think.
hyperactivity - Good skill.
suffocate - Good spell.
slowness - Good spell, but doesn't seem to affect mobs. Negligible effect anyway.
mana blast - High mana cost, low power.

Man that took ages..

Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 02:45:05 am »
Absolve and Evil eye are strange. Evil eye gives you -1000 align immediately, absolve just increases your align by 100-300 points.

Cure critic is actually decent, much better than cure light.

Dispel sanctuary works.

Though, I think most debuff spells or skills / indirect offensive spells or skills / some other spells or skills are actually great, *but we just don't see the effect. Probably this is because most people are not PK, and ARENA flags don't really allow the skills/spells to be used. And the PK people are usually GMs (or non priest, mage, esper), and these debuffs spells are T3 / T4, so hence unless you're a GM esper, mage, or priest, you don't really see how these spells work.

Easiest way would be to temporary make everyone PK for the next KOTM, to compare all the debuff skills/spells.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:59:02 am by erwin »

Offline Fizban

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 09:59:12 am »
Quote
Forsee - Poor buff, something like an extra 20 accuracy or something? I don't even remember what it does so it can't be very good.

10 accuracy, 15 evasion.

Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 09:09:58 pm »
Short question, should the mind spells be looked at or reworked, or spells be given different elements?

Here are all the offensive spells I can think of, and their respective elements.

Corrupt Armor - Earth
Weaken - Earth
Earthquake - Earth

Holy Word - Spirit
Dispel Evil - Spirit
Holy Shout - Spirit
Mana Blast - Spirit

Magic Missile - Air
Meteor Shower - Air
Heart Squeeze - Air
Suffocate - Air

Burning Hands - Fire
Fireball - Fire
Dispel Good - Fire
Facemelt - Fire
Flame Arrow - Fire
Inferno - Fire
Burning Skull - Fire

Harm - Death
Lifesuck - Death
Dispel Sanctuary - Death
Soulsmash - Death
Energy Drain - Death

Shocking Grasp - Electricity
Call Lightning - Electricity
Chain Lightning - Electricity
Lightning Bolt - Electricity

Chill Touch - Ice
Cone of Cold - Ice
Hold Person - Ice

Poison - Water
Acid Arrow - Water

Colour Spray - Light
Blindness - Light


Mind Water seems *relatively* useless compared to mind ice, mind electricity, mind fire, mainly because it boosts one offensive spell, acid arrow, which is a directional spell, and hence, some mobs are immune against it.

ATM, without potions, priests greatly benefit from such mind spells (majority of their spells come under that), followed by mages, and then espers.

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 05:03:44 am »
I think the whole spells/elements system itself needs to be reworked. Some elements have more agressive spells than others, classes are randomly designated elemental strengths and weaknesses.. There should be some order to it. Like players choose the elements they want to specialise in, which have their own weaknesses, and learn the spells according or something.

Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2008, 06:43:02 am »
But, if that was done, would that remove the need for classes, or add generic 'elemental' type skills/spells?

I mean, ok, I'm a ranger, I choose fire element, I get minor fire defence spells and minor fire attack spells.

I'm a warrior, can I even choose an element? Do I get any skills which 'use' elements?


Offline Fizban

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 09:07:43 am »
Mind water is better than ice in my eyes because acid arrow is a great spell.

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 02:40:45 pm »
That's what I've been thinking about, whether making elements in more depth, and more organised would remove the need for caster classes.. Which I'm not sure would be a bad thing, but it'd mean a shitload more work.

Offline erwin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 05:35:07 am »
What are skill/spell slots, anyway? As in, I've heard Molly and Prom mentioning something about having all the available skill slots used up, so no new skills/spells can be added in.

I don't know whether this can apply here, but what about level restrictions and degree which spells/skills can be used?

Say, Priest and Hunter get the spell 'heal' at T1L5. If you're at T1, you're restricted to cast 'heal cure light'. At T1L34, they can cast 'heal antidote 1'. At T2, L10, you get to cast 'heal cure critic'. At T3L32, you can cast 'heal heal'. I'd guess there'd be ifchecks to see if you're of a certain class, or if you've found a mob/ done a 'quest' to get access to cure critic and heal.

Or a basic spell "Protection", and depending on the class you are, you can cast protection spells ranging from prot fire, prot cold, prot good, prot evil, mirror shield, holy shield, mana shield, thorn shield, sanc, fire shield, ice shield, magic bubble, etc.

Or a spell "Mind" for mind fire, mind elec, mind water, mind ice.

*Edit. On a second thought, maybe not, since that would probably need a mass reworking of everything, such as potions, wands, scrolls, code...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 05:37:28 am by erwin »

Offline Virisin

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Re: Spells/Skills that need to be reworked
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 03:27:44 pm »
Skill/spell slots are the availablea amount of skills/spells we can have. 200 is the limit I do believe, and we currently have 200 skills & spells so without getting rid of some, we cannot add anymore in.

But yeah, I like your idea, it gives a bit more depth. I'd also like to have mastery spells along with your element. So you can learn 'fire/water/air/etc' mastery, and it unlocks those type of spells for you.

Again, it seems to remove a bit of the uniqueness from each caster class and I'm not sure how to combat that, but I do think that spells need more depth. Elements too.

I'd like to see a massive rework of potions and wands and scrolls as well, it seems silly that I'm able to get every single spellup potion as a fighter, whereas a caster can't get potions of hyperactivity or martial arts for instance. Fighter/Rogue buffs are unique, caster buffs arn't.