To GM or not to GM

[Molly]

Also since most classes will be different once again, bring back group levelling and exp divied up by the involvement or equally?  Grouping was very popular in old port and helped the pbase in my opinion.  I think that would help bring the community together as well make it a more fun place to be.  There should be no more soloing of hard zones like dark planet and prehistoric forest.... Also this does raise the question of power levelling being possible. But even in old port people weren't power levelled all the time, unless that is you count the grouping.  But grouping made levelling fun back that, instead of making it a chore as it is nowadays. Anyone agree?

I think this is one of the best argument for reducing the GM benefits that I heard so far.

Grouping is fun, it promotes bonding and socializing between players. Back when I was an active player, I never leveled alone. Grouping and chatting with my groupmates between fights was what made the game fun for me. And then for some reason and at some point it became all about soloing.

So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.

[Kvetch]

So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.

I think the answer to that is this:  If xp is based off damage done to target and you have the skills to tank AND heal yourself, why group with people?  If you group that means only that you'll level slower.  why was the way xp was given changed?  i believe that had to do with the powerleveling of people.  So, it means we've got to change how xp is given - not have it based off how much damage you do - and somehow make it so there still isn't powerleveling.   I'm not sure if it's been changed or not.  If it has, it just probably means that people are so used to soloing now they have to get out of the habit.

[Virisin]

Well, it's a combination of GM + tiers + remorts and the new grouping system. Because of GM and stuff, the range between player strengths is vastly bigger than it was on the old code. And seeing as exp is divvied up depending on damage, the only efficient way of grouping would be to find someone with pretty much the same amount of remorts, and definately be the same tier. This is one reason I always voted for change.. Because having no GM and a different system would allow for better grouping, and better PK aswel.. Because PK is affected in the same way as grouping, with the vast differences in strength. I personally would prefer the option of powerlevelling, as opposed to no grouping at all. I know when I was a newbie groups of 10 or more players doing 'aussie runs' were the shiz.. And we'd all get good exp aswel.

(Sorry for the crappiness of the post.. I'm rather hung-over atm.)

[Fizban]

Was Virisin into my stash of Bacardi 151?

[Virisin]

I know where you live..

[Estidn]

I honestly kinda thought the group exp worked out for what it was. I know a lot of rp'ing went on while out on those trips. Like the time Muse killed Darkwolf cause Darkwolf killed a puppy in aussie and Muse called him a traitor to his race. That was fun...

[Robert]

Id say, by removing gm, all of us that did it, lost time, now i dont really care on what happends i know Virisin is whining cause hes to lazy to go level and whatnot, but if you remove it we that did it should have something extra, you cant fuck up the remorts we have its not fair its not like you can do it in 3 hours people ware online alot to get to gm, beeying gm is cool and its not overpowered. As Molly said a Gm is not immortal non gm chars can kill a gm easy. Now stop whining and start playing everything was cool we had something to remort for, if you remove it, people will just stay tier 4 some class level 50 and thats it and recall will be full once more, not that is not. Ayways that was my 50 cents about this problem. Happy Easter to the ones that celebrate it tomorrow.
ciao,

[Fizban]

and its not overpowered.

Yes it is.

As Molly said a Gm is not immortal non gm chars can kill a gm easy.

That requires a mediocre GM and a pkiller with substantial skill to be the non-GM. Yes, Lionheart can kill you, Virisin can clobber you silly, but there are probably less than 5 non-GM's that can touch you.

[Iwku]

I originally voted to remove GM because personally I like the idea of specializing rather than remorting and going back to zero. But given all the recent changes (or proposed changes) and how I've felt about it, I've tried to put myself into the shoes of a GM and I guess if I was a GM I would be very warry of the possible deletion of GM.  I would like to change my vote to neutral.  Anyway, here are just some thoughts on GM.  They are not all my own but I hope you find them worth reading and considering before going forward with the deletion of GM's.

Removing Gm is not going to make the characters more in depth. Gm is not what causes the classes to be unbalanced. It’s not what causes mutliclassing to suck and it sure in **** is not why people don’t group together. And Gms are not overpowered.

Classes

The gladiators showed that classes are not balanced. This is no fault of Gms. Skills and spells need to be properly adjusted. There are tier 1 and 2 spells stronger then tier 4 spells and there are quite a few useless spells.

MultiClassing

Once again having all tier 1 and 2 skills on Gm is not what makes multiclassing suck. Mutliclassing sucks for one because you only get max hp/ speed bonus on whatever tier you are on. Say you a tier 2 thief, tier 2 mage. You only get max hp that a tier 2 thief gets and only the max speed bonus a tier 2 thief gets. Which is going to make that character suck against any a non multiclassed tier 4 player.

Grouping

You say Gm ruins grouping because they are exp hogs - ever taken a look at most of the current Gms out there. They have the best equipment or most of it. That is what causes them to do more damage. What’s going to happen when everyone starts hitting Tier 4 and they are not going to remort out of the class because there is no point to. They are not going to hunt, so no point to group with someone when hunting wouldn’t do them any justice.

There also needs to be stronger mobs that CALL for the use of grouping. Just removing GM is not going to make everyone go “lets group and Kill dinos” because you don’t have to be GM to kill dinos effectively.

GMs being overpowered

Gms should not get every tier 1 and 2 skill because it makes being a certain class in Gm more powerful than another class. But, that is not the Gms fault. That is who ever coded the systems fault. For instance, a tier 4 Gm thief gets parry, dodge, phase and brace. While a tier 4 warrior only gets brace and parry. That is who ever coded parry and brace to be a tier 1 and 2 skill. Either start moving some of the better skills up a higher tier and only allow a gm to pick a handful of spells and skills they want when they reach GM.

The thing that makes most Gms powerful is that they have spent a lot of time in the game. And with all of that time they have learned how each class works, how all the spells works and they have done quite a few good quests so by the time they hit GM they have good quest equipment. Gm is not unkillable - the main thing with how strong you are depends mainly on Equipment.

Making characters more in depth

Actually I think it’s just going to cause more players to become lazy. After you hit tier 4 there is no need to level, and not everyone can quest or likes to quest so there will be even more people sitting around in recall doing nothing.

You remove Gm and raise the amount of exp tnl. That is going to cause more aggravation. It’s going to take longer to get your spells and skills. And sometimes as it is going from mid level tier 3 to tier 3 level 51 on most classes takes forever because the amount of exp is almost trippled from what you needed as tier 1. So it’s going to even take longer and just is going to make it more boring and less exciting.

In conclusion

No one forces you to be Gm. And Gm is not what is ruining the mud. Gm is not what makes you uber. It needs some changes done to it but removing it no. Its a status symbol and it actually gives you something to do in the game and work for. No one forces you to level and you dont have to be Gm to be strong. Virisin, Lionheart and a few others prove that already. Dont blame Gm on why your weak. its called you need to start figuring out quests. And gaining quest equipment. A gm thief with 200 damroll is gonna suck just as bad as a thief with 200 damroll.

[Leonardo]

So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.

I know why people don't group anymore - the group code has become too strict.
Players in a group get exp based on their damage done in combat and everyone gets hit by the mob they are fighting. If a tier4 player goes levelling grouped with 3 tier2 players - beside the fact that the tier2 players will receive very less EXP than levelling solo or even none if the tier4 player does most of the damage - they risk to die very often. So levelling grouped nowadays is not worth it - we don't have to ask ourselves why people don't group anymore - ask directly the code.

Make the grouping code proficent for group levelling again and be sure people will group - I'll be the first to encourage groups myself. I loved group levelling, I get bored levelling solo but I'm forced to do so by the code.

[Virisin]

Rebuttal time..

Iwku first:

They are not all my own but I hope you find them worth reading and considering before going forward with the deletion of GM's.

First of all, GM is not going to be deleted.. Simple as that. So, basically your whole post is moot. But I'll explain why you're wrong almost every point anyway.

Classes

The gladiators showed that classes are not balanced. This is no fault of Gms. Skills and spells need to be properly adjusted. There are tier 1 and 2 spells stronger then tier 4 spells and there are quite a few useless spells.

Gladiators actually showed that classes arn't too bad. Without outside interference, each class on it's own is actually fairly equal. There are a few exceptions, but on the whole it's not too bad. Yes, there are tier 1 and 2 skills/spells more worthwhile than tier 4 skills/spells though. That's a problem, and being worked on.

No one ever actually said GM makes classes unbalanced, I just said classes could be cooler without GM. But it's not going to happen.

MultiClassing

Once again having all tier 1 and 2 skills on Gm is not what makes multiclassing suck. Mutliclassing sucks for one because you only get max hp/ speed bonus on whatever tier you are on. Say you a tier 2 thief, tier 2 mage. You only get max hp that a tier 2 thief gets and only the max speed bonus a tier 2 thief gets. Which is going to make that character suck against any a non multiclassed tier 4 player.

Multiclassing is MADE to suck currently.. GM doesn't make it suck because we're not meant to multiclass. I think multiclassing COULD be a cool option, but for it to work, it kinda needs GM to be removed. I never said GM makes multiclassing suck. Again, we're not removing GM though. There are possibilities on different styles of play, but a GM overhaul isn't really on the agenda. Skills/spells organising and groups are.

Grouping

You say Gm ruins grouping because they are exp hogs - ever taken a look at most of the current Gms out there. They have the best equipment or most of it. That is what causes them to do more damage. What’s going to happen when everyone starts hitting Tier 4 and they are not going to remort out of the class because there is no point to. They are not going to hunt, so no point to group with someone when hunting wouldn’t do them any justice.

There also needs to be stronger mobs that CALL for the use of grouping. Just removing GM is not going to make everyone go “lets group and Kill dinos” because you don’t have to be GM to kill dinos effectively.

I say GM and tiers and remorts ruins grouping because of the vast differences in strength. And it's true.. But we can fix grouping. And it's possibly going to go back to the way it was prior to code change, which was rather fun.

Also, if we WERE to remove GM, and we're NOT going too... We would change the time taken to level to tier 4 as well. You always seem to miss the fact that when something is changed, other things are changed relatively around whatever was changed, to keep the same scale.

GMs being overpowered

Gms should not get every tier 1 and 2 skill because it makes being a certain class in Gm more powerful than another class. But, that is not the Gms fault. That is who ever coded the systems fault. For instance, a tier 4 Gm thief gets parry, dodge, phase and brace. While a tier 4 warrior only gets brace and parry. That is who ever coded parry and brace to be a tier 1 and 2 skill. Either start moving some of the better skills up a higher tier and only allow a gm to pick a handful of spells and skills they want when they reach GM.

The thing that makes most Gms powerful is that they have spent a lot of time in the game. And with all of that time they have learned how each class works, how all the spells works and they have done quite a few good quests so by the time they hit GM they have good quest equipment. Gm is not unkillable - the main thing with how strong you are depends mainly on Equipment.

"That is whoever coded the systems fault." - I must say, that made me laugh. If somthing is unbalanced, is it always ok because it's not the systems fault, it's whoever coded the systems fault?

Anyhow, yes, GM's are overpowered, but it's partially because of certain bugs. And those are being fixed. And with a more organised skill/spell system, it will be pretty much fine anyway.

Yes, equipment is the main factor, but masteries are as well.

Lion: Yeah, pretty much. A strict group code that's focused around tiers and remorts means we all lose.

[erwin]

With the current speed changes, I'm not sure if the system of giving xp to those who do damage would be feasible, I'd rather an equal split, *even if it leads to people power levelling. I'd guess the aggro mobs roaming about high level zones would put off some people from power levelling, especially if they kill in one hit.

As for multiclassing, that would be a cool idea, but we would need additional skills/spells that would make multi classing a viable option, something like what Mord said a long long time ago. Like a Gypsy/Thief could steal from a distance. Or something like that. And the HP would need to be equalized. Perhaps once you hit a certain number of remorts, say 20, your HP at each tier would be roughly the same as the average HP of the T4 hps of your multi-classes.

As of now, I'd think caster classes have the advantage of being more 'specialized' than the melee classes, with spells like dispel sanc / control weather / evil eye / magic bubble / etc at T3 and above, whereas melee classes just get a generic cleave / behead / encircle, and a small boost to stats with hyperactivity / martial arts / etc.

I'd like to think that a T4 Esper with 3 remorts can do some major PKing, even without elementals