grouping / gm / heal spells and potions

[Prometheus]

Here is Toch's note from 4d:
Gotta tell you, murder is murder. Hack 'n slash is murder based nomatter how you
look at it.

If you want to make things align based you MUD have a stationary alignment system
We however are static. Skills and spells rely upon our current position of alignment.
That in itself doesn't make sense because it's not the alignment that defines the skill. No.
It is in fact the SKILL/SPELL that defines the alignment. If  you were to apply this same logic as it is currently
defined in our hack 'n slash actions...then I should say that the USE of skills/spells taht are considered "evil"
should in fact cause our alignment to drop. Not the other way around.

To be honest, I don't totally approve of the blind defense of anothers logic because to be honest, if you
truly sit down talk think about it, the system is half assed. We have a lot of broken flags, stupid rules
and to top it off, the crappiest grouping, and GM system in existance. And trust me, I say this with
all the love in the world. Nothing but good is intended by this perfectly private post.

You guys really honestly need to take a step back and try and fix the stuff that is effecting the players NOW.

Can't group. GM's have been gimped. Vampy flags aren't working. Alignment reqed skills/spells exist..
and to top it off, heals are not worth carrying around. The fact that I have to carry 100billion heals
to a simple place like Dino's and DP is crazy. they weigh too much, and my own cure spell does a better
job. This stuff needs to get fixed.

If the lack of coders is a problem, well all I can say is, stop what you're doing now, and fix the stuff that
is hurting the players. I'm probably the only one even bringing this stuff up, but tat's cause most everyone
else believes that no matter what they say the believe nothing will get done...or they just don't care.

So here are my recommendations once more:

 Fix the alignment system. Either keep it static but cause the skills/spells to affect the alignment..or make the system stationary.
Fix grouping.
Make heals HEALS again. I don't care how expensive they gotta be. We have no PBase..so nobody to abuse them.
Make heals way less.

That's it. Love you guys. Sorry for the lengthy post, but I gotta do it..otherwise nobody will listen to me
as the case usually is from my standpoint.

[Prometheus]

Here is the meat of the post:
1) Fix the alignment system. Either keep it static but cause the skills/spells to affect the alignment..or make the system stationary.
2) Fix grouping.
3) Fix GM.
4) Make heals HEALS again. I don't care how expensive they gotta be. We have no PBase..so nobody to abuse them.
Make heals way less.

Now what I would like to know is what people think is wrong with grouping. Mord made a lot of changes to grouping pretty much putting it back to the old days. I know there is an bug of when a caster is grouped and someone else is fighting the caster will get hit. Thotter is looking into this bug.

The fix GM is the already posted in this forum area. To be honest I think GM is fine and I know for a fact others with disagree with me on it. But we all need to remember that we need to find something everyone can use from the newbies to the old hands.

Alignment I will see what others think on this before I really comment on it.

Heal was changed because they got too buff. I think Molly would be the best one to reply to this part of it.

Prometheus.

[Molly]

First some general observations:
It's obvious that you cannot please everyone in a Mud.
If you change anything that many players are complaining about, someone else will complain about the change, especially if it entails fixing something that was overpowered.
Balancing is a constant struggle, and generally not popular among the players, but nevertheless necessary.
And whether we have a large p-base or a small one - if something can be abused, you can be pretty sure that sooner or later someone will abuse it.

Now about the specific points:
1. Align
You might be right about the alignment issues, but being no coder I am not sure which skills/spells rely on it, so could you please be a bit more specific here?
What I do know is that some weapons and equipment are alignment based (for instance the swords Memory and Sorrow in Osten Ard), and I'm not about to  change that, because it's based on and part of a Quest between good and Evil. So dependent on the path you choose in the Quest, there is one good and one evil sword. They are otherwise identical, and if you don't like the align restriction, just don't use the swords. There are plenty of other weapons available.

2. Grouping
I thought grouping already had been fixed, (apart from the caster bug that Prom mentioned and is being worked on).
Have you actually tried grouping lately, Toch?
Does anyone who has tried it got any comments to this?

3. GMs
My personal opinion is that GMs were overpowered before, and are now better balanced. Actually I was never a big fan of the GM system at all. I'd much rather have defined Classes that are significantly different from each other, each with their own GM skills. Obviously others don't share my opinion, and it seems most players prefer having a free choice between all available skills.
I'd like some more input from players and Staff on this.
As long as the system doesn't result in some players becoming so ridiculously 'uber' that  they can kill anything in the game in 5 strokes, I guess I can live with it.

4. Heals
My own opinion is that heals still play a too big role in the game as it is. If your own cure spell does a better job, I think you should regard that as a good thing, especially since it also promotes grouping.

There are better heals available in the game than the ones sold in the shops, but you have to know which and where they are and collect them, which of course takes some effort.
At least in the old days, there were players who took a pride in figuring out those valuable secrets and use them to their own advantage. People also would plan their attacks carefully, bringing heals to the fighting area in advance, using pets and mounts to increase their own carrying capacity, using different strategies on different mobs, based on the weaknesses of the target...
Nowadays anything that needs an effort from the player seems to be a negative thing...

The biggest mobs in the three 'Uber zones', (Prehistoric Forest, Dark Planet and Dragon Caves) were never intended to be taken on by single players, the zones were put in as a challenge for large groups. Most old players remember the 'Dino runs' with some affection.
For various reasons, some players became so ridiculously overpowered that they could kill them single handed. I can understand that it might be frustrating that this is no longer possible, (especially to the ones that once had the ability), but to me this is just a balance issue that has been fixed.

5. Vamp skills
I am planning to look over the vampire subskills - and above all the quests to get them - since they are way too easily obtained as it is, and consequently shouldn't be too powerful. This is actually  high on my todo list.
In that context I'll also look over the align problems, if you care to specify them a bit.
Until then - if you find these subskills useless, just don't use them.

[Turin Orsini]

I play and level alot my observations from play of late.

1 Align

I understand where Toch is coming from with the fact of a fluctuating alignment, but this is not a real issue. So some spells work better with an evil align and other with a good its a simple thing make a choice and work with it, many other things that can be looked at over the small fact of I want both spells to work at maximum ability with no sacrifice on my own part.

2 Grouping

I have been doing a bit of this as have alot of others and seriously I fail to see what else needs to be changed, it is giving fairly even returns, if people want to complain about power leveling so be it they always will but at the moment with a serverly diminished player base anything that keeps people playing is a good thing. As far as I see it, prior to the last change yes grouping made it imposible to play in a group, but now it is fun and enjoyable and no one has any huge advantage or disadvantage in the group and as such is bringing back the old flavor and fun of grouping.

3 GMs

I do not have a GM character so am not able to comment.

4 Heals

As an active leveling player let me have my whine for the sake of it - I want a healing potion that weights nothing and heals all my hit points and is available at the healer west of recall - now back to the real world healing pots may not be as powerful as your spells but that is the way it is meant to be. There are ways to carry more healing pots and ways to avoid having to need as many of them but if you play smart then you can acheive a fair bit with just heals, and of course if you have your own spells and can supliment your spells with potions as well then you can go further but it is all a matter of time and effort and planning.

The old days are gone, change, adapt, and move on or pull up a beanbag in recall it matters not.

5 Vamp skills

Would be nice to see them work - but easily obtained or not - providing a challenge for players is one thing but constantly taking and making it harder and harder with a smaller and smaller player base is not the way to go.

 Is nice to have views and opinions of what you would like to see in the larger picture, but at the moment the changes and general hardening of the mud seems to be being made by either retired players or people who have no intention of going out and actually having to do anything with the new changes - some thought should go into any changes from the opinion of new character be them new to the mud or not there are not always players on to help if required - try the changes for yourself with a new character and no help or eq see if you find it enjoyable - if you do not find it enjoyable to do this or can not be bothered with it then why should new players.

Just my 5 cents

[Kvetch]

Here is Toch's note from 4d:
Gotta tell you, murder is murder. Hack 'n slash is murder based nomatter how you
look at it.

While that is true in the real world, the "fake" worlds all seem to come to the same belief that if someone deserves to be killed then it's not wrong to kill them.  How many times do you cheer for the "hero" of a story/book/movie/comic/tv-show/etc when they finally find the bad guy and kill them because it's the only way to stop them?  The villian of the story killed someone so they must be evil, yet the hero kills them and they are good.  It works because of the perception of people.

Kill Darth Vader and you're good because he was evil.
Kill Luke Skywalker and you're evil because he is good.

Now, I'll believe that our alignment system changes you to good/evil too quickly because it should never be an "almost immidate" thing to go from good to evil or vice versa, but if you're constantly killing things at are considered evil then in the eyes of the rest of the "world" who hears your name, you should be considered "good" while the opposite is also true - if you're constantly killing good things you should be seen as being evil.  That is all the alignment should represent is how the rest of the world (NPC's mostly/PC's through RP) sees you.

To make a choice on alignment when you create your character would be interesting, but what if you make an evil character and then start out killing all these things that the rest of the world sees as "evil".  Shouldn't you be hailed as a "good guy"?  And if it continues, shouldn't the alignment be forced to change due to your actions?  Though, I must admit that evil killing evil isn't a far stretch.  Evil kills everything but itself thinking itself to be the right way - the only way.  It really should be harder to be good.  Have you tried being good?  *ick*

So perhaps my example should be: if you create a character that is supposed to be good, but then run around killing all the things the rest of the world (or worlds, I guess) see as good.  Now there is an evil act...  To this end, maybe we should make it so your alignment is neutral or evil and you have to work very very hard to be good...

*shrugs*  Just my 2 cents on that.  I can't even afford the 5 cents that Turin left.

As for the healing potions, I believe that healing should be the domain of clerics and potions should be a piss-poor substitute.  YOu can't afford yourself a cleric then you'll have to do with the substitution - no matter what it weighs or how "weak" it is.

Kvetchy

[Tocharaeh]

Okay, a couple of things:

First off, my bad grouping works just fine. I hadn't heard otherwise since I last posted about grouping last month. Meep.

Secondly, alignment. Though I understand your arguement Kvetchy, it's a weak on. The reason being is that poeple don't DECIDE your alignment. You do. Whom you are affiliated with does. If I kill everyone without second thoughts as to them being good or bad, but soley for my own person gain...guess what..I'm EVIL. In fact EVIL is all about personal gain. If you think about it, we kill good and bad alike to gain levels...we're all technically evil hehehehe.

but seriously, static align is silliness. If we have it, then align reqed stuff shouldn't exist...because I have to watch where my align is in a big fight because god forbid I start having 60% of my eq zapping me in the middle of a fight. Either we have a stationary align system, or not. Align reqed skills/spells doens't make any sense what-so-ever. Such things should never exist.

Vampy-

     I totally agree that the drainblood skill was way to easy to get...assuming people even went to explore it. I honestly think that drainblood while active should be active at all times, BUT it's a skill that involve lag...think of it as a heal, taht is slightly better but diffiult to use, and is a skill like any other. It should be much harder to get in my opinion, but it's nice to have.
   Weapons- Vampy weapons were originally created to replace heals somewhat. The logic that heals are too depandant upon is crazy. heals were created for individuals. Though grouping is wonderful, you cannot hope to enforce grouping in a mud that has little to no PBAse. When we get an average of 15-30 players on all of the time, then you can start thinking about enforcing grouping. However it's not fair, nor is it likely to work. You're just hurting what pbase we have now. Heals, and vampy have always been an important aspect of any and all muds, even group heavy ones.
   The Vampy flag for weapons really does need to be fixed because I can only carry so many flipping heals, and heal myself for so long. Believe it or not but I'm not a caster *gasp*, I'm a ranger who needs to spend more of his time typing KICK than c 'cure light' the entire time. It's not sufficiant. It's not even practical.

GMs- I've been pushiong for GM class specifics for almost two years now, and sadly only now is my favorite someone on the same page as me.
        I have happily written the system over and over again on the forums, I think three...maybe four times now. I would LOVE to see GM's for class specific areas. GM of Warriors = Some cool name like Grandmaster of blahblah or something. They get their own special set of skills/spells. GMs got gimped by taking away certain T1 skills. First you take away T4..okay fine, I'm down...by T1? You gotta be kidding me. GM's were supposed to be the best of the best because they took the time to do what most everyone else refuses to do out of laziness, MASTER EVERY CLASS. Man, you took away T1 basic skills form us...now we're nolonger masters. great job on gimping. GM's were supposed to be unique. On top of that Dino's, and DP were built for creating challenge for those of us who aren't totally challenge by ourselves. I can thank you in a lot of ways because I know now taht nobody will ever be able to get the Gojira stuff taht took HOURS to nab by myself. I know that nobody will ever be able to survive it by themselves (tho sonya designed it to be a solo ordeal). Knowing that, I can say that through my great hard work, I and my fellows within this SOLO minority lay claim to that fact. We took on the UBER mobs ourselves with none to support us but our wits, and nice set of balls.
        Yeah, unique class specific GMs would be awesome, and I think they should be attained through questing, AND leveling. I think it should be hard, and something to be proud of.

To sum up:

    I was wrong about grouping.
    Align req skills/spells is stupid.
    Static align sux
    GMs should get all their t1 skills/spells back.
    Vampy flag for gear needs to get fixed.
    Heals weigh too much. Make them lighter! (please?)
    I love you.

-Toch

[Tocharaeh]

OH and also for the align thing. ITEMS and SPELLS/SKILL shouldn't "consider" you evil/good. So who cares what the world thinks of you? Items know based upon your alignment in your SOUL...not reputation. What the hell do created items care about hearsay?...

-Toch

[Molly]

What the hell do created items care about hearsay?...
-Toch

The problem with you, Toch, is that you sometimes try to apply RL logic to a Mud world, whether it's about martial arts skills or enchanted objects. A Mud has its own rules, and some of them are magic rather than logic.
Sure, created items don't listen to hearsay. But if whoever crafted them also put a spell on them to serve only the good - or evil - I guess you have to accept that. Or refrain from using the items.

Another problem with you is that the changes you propose usually are so fundamental that it seems to me you are asking for a totally different Mud. Which is probably why the response to them isn't overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

[Tocharaeh]

This isn't about a different mud, and this certainly isn't about rl logic. This is standard gameplay logic. HEARSAY does not decide your alignment. You do. And items and skills/spells do not listen to hearsay since they can't, they're not sentient, and so on and so forth. You can say an item might be, and if so, script it. I was a shit talking piece of armor that rags on me for being Drow. You say an item is sentient, I wioll believe it, but I was randon talking scripts since all sentient items communicate mentally, and even attempt to control you. (this is a fact, go check gameplay sources such as dnd, shadowrun, and so on...sentient items choose, manipulate, and control whenever possible...unless good aligned but even THEN they try to guide you towards their own value system and logic.)

Skills/Spells are completely different. They are an extension of you therefore ARE Evil/Good depending on HOW you've put them to use. This isn't about a different mud. This is about logic. 4D's logic for align based abilities is the worst idea I have EVER heard. For goodness sakes, you need to be EVIL to cast evil eye....but you don't have to be good to cast Absolve...makes a lot of sense...NOT.

Align based anything NOT spell/skill should be left alone, but the skill/spell thing really needs to be changed. And honestly static align was the dumpest idea in the world. I am evil, I RP evil..but my align says +150 because I have anti-evil eq...makes a lot of sense people *snickers* seriously static align is stupid. Gimmie a staionary align any day. I'd love to walk around as a Neutral Evil. At least then it's true when you cast detect align and go "Holy shit, he really IS evil"

[kitolani]

Whaaat about those girls we think are neutral good?  What will we think ot them? Shall we tussle them
inn' their tassles? Awaiting ears want to know.

[Tocharaeh]

I'd like to tossle their tassles.

[Estidn]

The old days are gone, change, adapt, and move on or pull up a beanbag in recall it matters not.

Like I said before, I really disagree with this statement and think it's hurting the mud. It does matter. Our mud for the past few months has been pretty dead. The problem with that is for a lot of people the mud is no longer fun. There was no social aspect to it. Grouping came back and it brought back some of the fun that attracted a lot of us to the mud. I hate to say it but newbies aren't going to level if they have to find a healer to drag around with them every time they want to level. At the end of the day the muds purpose isn't to prove who the best player is. It's to have fun. And if people aren't having fun why would they play.