Skill Tree System

[horus]

I know this isnt original, but this is an example of a skill tree system I am proposing, to make 4D classes very different.


Melee  -->  hand-to-hand --> martial arts (general)  --> monkey stance --> special monkey attacks
                                         martial arts (general)  --> snake stance --> various special snake attacks
                                         martial arts (general)  --> tiger stance  --> etc etc
Melee --> weapon profiencies --> sword specialisation --> special sword attacks
              weapon profiencies --> mace specialisation --> mace special attacks

Further explanation:-
The special attacks could be branches for further specialisations. So for example, monkey stance may have Raving Monkey --> Drunken Monkey --> Rabid Monkey as one branch, and another branch could be Vicious Claw --> Frenzied Claw --> Heavenly Strike. Each martial arts stance has different attack damage, so monkey may be claw attack, snake is pierce, etc.

Each special attack has different effects. Each stance also does different damage, and has different damage multipliers and different speeds.

Weapon specialisations has different effects, but the damage is always going to be based on the weapon used.

So, warriors can decide they like to work with weapons, while others may decide to become a martial artist. Even within each branch, they are very different from each other, depending on which specialty they want to go down.

This is just a simple example that can be applied to casters as well.
         

[Tocharaeh]

mMMm I love skill trees.

For martial artists you can create glove weapons for fists o d00m if they dun wanna use swords 'n such.

[horus]

Furthermore, I forgot to add, that each special attack has ranks. You need to spend 5 pracs to add one rank to each skill, and the harder skills cannot have higher ranks than the earlier skills.

So in the end, you can either have :-
Vicious Claw (rank 5) -> Frenzied Claw (rank 4) -> Heavenly Strike (rank 2)
OR
Vicious Claw (rank 15) -> frenzied claw (rank1)

Of course, each rank of a particular attack will increase in damage range, speed, and any other special effects, so that an example would be:-
Vicious Claw rank 10 - victim has chance to be stunned
Frenzied Claw rank 5 - victim's face is ripped off, and gets blinded
Heavenly strike rank 5 - victim is bashed and stunned

This is a rough example. There will be multiple effects for particular ranks, so it will be impossible for a character to learn everything and have all ranks maxed out.

[Tocharaeh]

I love it when you talk dirty to me

[Loran]

personally i'd love to see something martial arts/a little ninja sprinkled around, with forms -  i do wonder about balance issues and all the weapons  in place becoming obsolete if players were weaponless/extra attacks and whatnot and how this would affect the current skills/spells in place

and for grins  http://seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=mamove

[Turin Orsini]

Ok I am of two minds with this idea.

On the plus side

I think this will breath some new life into the game and give things an interesting twist leading to greater player diversity and combinations. If done correctly and powered right then will allow solo players greater range earlier on, as they will stronger characters.
The difference in individual characters will be much better and allow for greater play of characters.

On the minus side

The implimentation of this is going to be a huge job and take alot of time.
Is this going to get finished and implimented?
How is it going to effect current ingame eq and armour?
It is going to be the closest thing to a Pwipe that you can have without doing a Pwipe.


At the moment the skill and spells of the mud is stagnent and old - we have the same old skills and spells just renamed made stronger or weaker and passed around the classes.

Our classes were meant to be different all bringing something unique to the table but that was lost.

If done correctly then we can have some very different classes all forfilling vital roles in the game where people can play the style that they want to play not be forced to play a class because without being this class we can not survive.

The idea of requiring multiple pracs to go up a single level of a skill or spell will slow leveling down alot, which can go one of two ways either it will slow it down so much players will get bored and give up or it will inject fresh energy into players striving to reach a maxed character.

How will this work with the tier system?

At the moment we have to gain 204 levels to complete tier 4 if this is going to abolish the tier system will each class have a potential 204 levels to gain the required skill points to place into the skills at the inflated values?

What happens when you remort who much of our previous work are we going to have access to? Is there going to be a GM idea in place or is it going to be a stay in the class you have mastered type deal?

I would like to see a GM type senario in place as it allows players that have invested the time and effort to level to carry on their own solo adventures without the heavy reliance on others and simply speaking at the moment we do not have the huge amount of players to have to rely on other players being present all the time to level with.

How are players going to react to starting again - I understand there is talk of compensation and can see good and bad points to this (good) those that have invested the time and effort to gain the levels do not loose everything and have to start again and they will stay with the mud (bad) you will end up with a situation like you do at the moment after the trainer update the older players have all the skills but most have no idea where to find the trainers, yet are top level players - it is essentually making it a totally new game and as such should not all start off on an even footing, this allows for more experianced players to fully test the system as they are playing it not just have players that are currently gm get given it all back again then sit around and do nothing and have to rely on new players to try and find the flaws and gaps that are there as they will be the first ones through the new system.

Then the big question how many players will we loose to changing?

Equipment with new skills and specilizations what new eq qill we need to balance up the game at the moment if you use a sword or dagger then you are covered but staves, martial arts weaponry, maces etc have not recieved any love in the past, are we going to end up with classes devoid of eq as it is just not in the game and what is there is nowhere near as effective or even on par with current swords and daggers?

[Molly]

I am cautiously positive to a skill tree based skills/spells system myself, since I'd prefer a setup where the classes are significantly different, and with a wide variety of choices, rather than all players ending up more or less with the same set of skills and spells, as seems to be the case now.

Also there seems to be a pretty widespread discontent with our present remort system. But then again, this might just be a vocal minority, while most players would prefer a status quo. Another point is that most of the radical ideas come from players who aren't really active any more.

Still, the Mud seems pretty dead nowadays, most of the older players just hang out at Recall, if they bother to log on at all, and the inflew of new players is not nearly large enough.
So maybe - just maybe - a drastic change of the combat system might help to rekindle the interest for at least some of our oldbies.

However, make no mistake - a new combat system like this means a huge and dramatic change, and most likely not all our players will be happy about it. Some because they dislike all changes, others because they'd rather see a change in the opposite direction.

If - and I say if, because it is in no way certain, and there is a long road to go - but if we decide to implement this, it means that everyone will have to learn to use a brand new set of skills and spells. Everybody will also have to figure out new strategies for the best for PK and fighting mobs.

It also needs a huge amount of coding work, and although we have a volunteer for that, a change of this magnitude will take a long time to work out, test and balance into a viable system. So don't expect any change to happen overnight.

It will also involve a lot of work for the rest of the staff, mostly after the change, (above all with helpfiles, Trainer system and web page info).

It will need patience and tolerance from all players, since we probably have to run the systems parallel for quite some time. We cannot just shut down the Mud for several months while the new system is developed, but we might open an extra test port for it. So we will also need testplayers with enough interest and enthusiasm to carry the ideas through this developing period.
A good thing is that we can use the Gladiators to test the balance.

Hopefully the change wouldn't need to influence the zones too much. 4D has always been very equipment oriented, and I'd like equipment to play a similar role in the new system. We might have to create some new types of weapons, and spread them evenly over the zones, but that's really the least of the problems we'd be facing.

To make the change easier to handle, we should keep the current number of 8 Classes, but it might be a good idea to change the name and general characteristics of a couple of them. I'd however like to keep the connection to our main theme with the 4 Time Dimensions

There will be no need for a pwipe, and we think that we can figure out a fair way to compensate old players with many remorts, (probably by giving them one more or less full trained character of whatever branch they choose for each char with a given number of remorts, but other approaches can also be discussed).

If the system can be implemented successfully, it might bring new interest for players that have more or less tired of the current game. But it could also turn out to be the last nail in the coffin, by losing the majority of our current players. It's a bit of a gamble.

So the first step in this will be an open Forum discussion, to see how large the interest would be for a change. We'd like a lot of input and suggestions from the players in this thread.

Gradually we'll post examples of how the skill trees could be built up for the different Classes, and naturally we'll want lots of input on those too.

We will also open a separate thread, with a poll, where people can vote for and against a change, and also motivate their standpoint. This might allow us to avoid some pitfalls on the way.

So, like I said initially, although I am basically positive to the proposed change, I can also see a lot of problems on the road.

[Tocharaeh]

I'd like to put in my (yet again) formal request for a system like this to be honestly looked into. Certainly The 4d Staff is not alone and there are many like turin, Horus, Xeriuth, Devram, and myself who are willing to help in whatever was we can. As Turin said, the system IS stagnant.

I’d very much like to keep the T4 system. I feel like it’s almost a never ending road sometimes, which is nice because I’ll stop for a bit….then pick it up again. I enjoy long hard roads.
I’d also want to keep the 4d unique classes, and make them a t4 advancement because they’re very much a 4D staple. The other “stock” classes would be basic.
Here is how I’d like the T4 aspect to work (detailed):

No big change structure wise. We keep the system we have now, rename the tiers, and add a few extra things. If you’re wondering about the “merlin” deal on the T4 druid side. Merlin was the title for arch druids. Believe it or not, wizard was also a title for Druids in medieval times, but has LONG since become skewed. Anyway, they are right on par with each other in rank.
For theif you’ll see I put bard as the T2 and up. The reason being is that bards can be as crooked as the next cutpurse. The only difference is that bards had musical talent latent with magic…assassins…not so much. Assassins are far more "hands on/Garrote on".  It’s fun because you get “rock star” at T3 which is sweet because of our Future aspect in the game, Slannesh and all that. Yeah, it is cool in my opinion, and of course ends with 4D‘s Gypsy (as it should). Very 4D. Cleric has it’s very clear roads, either you’re a holy man/woman who will bring down the THUNDA from up high!….or you’re the holy warrior who will defend your religion to the death…AND BRING DOWN DA THUNDA! (thunder people...thunder)
We need a separate tree for Esper of course, and so there you have it. Warrior has it’s three classes combined. I never truly understood the different between hunter and ranger, because they’re both very much in tune with nature, and should understand the importance of balance between predator and prey, so I put those two together, which ends in Pathfinder which is the ultimate rank for tree huggers who are in tune with nature, and are masters of stealth, hunt, and navigation. The other side of course is the martial artist side (for you Horus, hehe).

Starting from scratch you learn JUST the basic skills, and a taste of what’s to come. This way you can get the idea of where you’re headed. Once you’ve made your choice, the basic skills stay with you, along with your “taste”. They will remained unchanged when you remort. Any extra points will carry over. As you advance you will keep certain abilities until finally you reach your T4 where you’ll have a complete tree like Horus proposes bearing some skills from the previous remorts, and then having a much larger tree unique and befitting a master of your field. Everyone has their own niche now. Casters have magic, warriors have expertise, rogues have their trade, and psychics have their mental know-how. Each one brings something new to the table.

This is the kind of system I honestly believe 4D could really use. We include the skill tree into our Tier system, creating our defined individual pathways, and I honestly believe people will come and STAY. I do believe that the 4D Quest aspect should be integral to this tier system. As you go up, before you remort, you must quest at your respectful guildhall which has been hidden somewhere deep within 4D’s labyrinth of creativity. To advance, you have to seek out the new Guildhall, quest, and then progress. We lose nothing, but gain a lot.

We really could use this kind of referbishment. As it stands our classes are not balanced, messy, and to be honest- slapped together as a quick idea smoeone thought up over lunch. I am a big fan of tiers, and pathways. For me, I almost beleve the more tiers the better because at least I'm doing something.

Finally, SHOULD you for whatever reason decide you don't like where you are.. There is a simple function>> Reroll. Just type Reclass (T1 class) (password), and confirm... BAM! You're now T1 again. Now, because we're using the skill tree system, we include the funtion REROLL. What you do is you pay a token/rp points/trade points/whatever AT your guildmanster (this is automatically deducted from your bank), type reroll (pw)(confirm), and ZZZZzzzIP, all of the points you have previously invested (aside form the basics taht will never change..cause they're basic) have default back to "total unspent". This allows you to play with different tree combos, and so on.

Okay, that's it for now. This is long enough (sorry everyone). I'm interested to see where this list takes us. 4D needs to be revitilized.    -Toch

[Molly]

I like the system that Toch lined up, but I’d like it even more if it included all our current classes as a starting point - i.e. 8 classes instead of 6, and with the current Class names kept.

Why?
First: because it would make the change a lot less dramatic for the players.
Second: Because it most likely would make the handling of pfiles easier for the coders, during the actual switch. (Players could simply get the Class and Tier they had in the old system transferred to the new one).
Third: Because it would need a lot of less work for the builders to adapt the zones. (existing Guilds could be kept, existing quests that send players on different paths because of class would still work, hopefully the current Trainer system could basically be kept, even with new skills and spells and new names on existing ones, etc.)
Fourth: Because 4D is a very old mud and tradition and theme are important at least to me.
For instance, three of our current classes are tied to a special Dimension in my mind: Hunters to Prehistoric, Rangers to OldWest and Espers to Future. The other five are pretty timeless and work for any Dimension.

Some examples:

Gypsy could have two branches.
The first would be the current utilitarian direction with Woodsing and Tinker, and Taming of pets and mounts added as an extra bonus. (Today tame is a useless skill that everybody has, but what if you had to pay a gypsy to train your animal) ?
The second branch would be the Bard – Rockstar direction, that Toch already proposed for Thieves.

Thief in turn could have one branch that was basically leading to Assassin, and another that would involve the more manipulative sneaky skills of spies, diplomats an merchants (Remember that Hermes was the God of Thieves and Merchants).

Ranger to me is an Oldwest themed Class – (think Cowboys and Indians).
So one direction could be Trapper (specialising in various kinds of traps that could be dropped in rooms, to harm or just immobilize players or mobs).
The other direction could be the cowboy/Indian approach, which would specialise in ranged weapons of all kinds, and also in whip skills (a whip could be used to harm, trip, snare, strangle etc.the opponent).

Hunter could have a Prehistoric theme, close to nature. Think shamans who painted pictures of the prey on the cave walls. But also the heroes of antique Greece like Heracles, who used clubs and strangled lions with his bare hands. Traditionally the antique gods took an active interest in the prowess of their human favourite, so some praying might result in the God throwing a magic cloak over you, or just whisking you out of harm’s way.
Hunters to me would be a mix of magic and brute force, and one branch could be shaman, ending in shapeshifter, i.e. the ability to turn into the animal you defeated.

Esper of course is Future, and would work with twisting the opponents mind in different ways. Obvious spells are confuse, foresee etc, and maybe they should have one offensive and one protective branch.

Warrior would pretty obviously have one barehanded martial arts branch and another that specialised in the use of various weapons, but not ranged ones.

Priest would be fine with the two branches that Toch outlined.

Mages finally have loads of possibilities and it wouldn’t be hard to find two branches for them. In fact I think the biggest problem here would be to choose between the options.

[Asmoday]

got an ideea
on the priest side , why not priests can be holy and shadow/dark
holy talents would focus in healing and so while shadow could be focused on doing damage

oh yeah , and i also think gypsie class should be looked carefully , its most useless class in game
not pointing out anyone just saying , soon ill try to come with some ideeas

[Tocharaeh]

I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based. Should we implement something like that, then what happens is we'd cause alignment issues. The Shadow Plane, and Shadow Weave type stuff which is actually featured in my zone, does site the sources and so on.

However! We COULD in fact base spell affects off of alignment. Say if your alignment is -100 and lower, your magic would in fact be twisted. This would make things very interesting because if you're evil, you'll cast shadow magic, and if you're good, you'll cast well..normal good magics. I think that would be the best idea.

The reason for this suggestion is that I want the two sides of a holy warrior displayed. Melee/Priest. Both are priests, but one of course is more warrior than anything. The holy warrior bit will actually implement some VERY cool stuff. Here are the skill examples I have for you on the melee side:

Charge: Think of it as behead, but it requires a mount, and it will knock the person down.
Rear: This will rear your mount back into position for another charge.
Crucify: (my favorite) Kind of like scalp, but instead you nail the body to a cross.

Now imagine if you will, assume your alignment is currently at evil, then you'd nail someone on a cross upside down. heheh that's pretty flippin' evil. As long as you have a corpse you can do it.

[Xeriuth]

I've got some good ideas, during the day while on duty i'll try to write them up. Much involves, better formation of the trees and crafting anyone?

[Xeriuth]

And btw...

a huge amount of coding work, and although we have a volunteer for that, a change of this magnitude will take a long time to work out, test and balance into a viable system.

If this volunteer is up for the work, perhaps he/she can start on a bunch of other stuff in the meantime, because this change requires a lot of brainstorming before any actual coding.

[Kvetch]

I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based.

ERm.. who says Shadow magic HAS to be alignment based? 

[kitolani]

Molly says:If the system can be implemented successfully, it might bring new interest for players that have more or less tired of the current game. But it could also turn out to be the last nail in the coffin, by losing the majority of our current players. It's a bit of a gamble.

      I have to agree that it's a bit of a gamble to demolish the entire skill structure. After all, there are actually those of us that hang out for more than just the 10,000 different ways you can splat a mob or player.  Molly's post about the little tweaks on each of the existing classes had excellent ideas. Very '4d' in nature, and not too complicated to be added without some huge overhaul.
      The premise of the game is so incredibly flexible that if you can't imagine that you're a ninja or neuromancer without the skillset, you don't deserve to be one. I can see a thief being an assassin, or also a misunderstood treasure hunter. The difference between the two doesn't lie in the set of skills you have, but rather in the way you decide to portray your character.  Everybody has the capacity to steal, some just choose the path of the honest merchant instead.
     Ideas of grandure can be tossed around in moments of boredom, but I implore you to examine the jewel that you already have existing and merely buff it to a shine. What about making the various trades and professions easier for younglings to get started on? That would both encourage roleplay and stimulate the economy. Smuggling your loads of whatnot just to have enough tradepoints at the end of the day to fuel your starbike hardly seems like motivation, but I hear it's fun. It's gotta be better than the daily grind, no matter what new fancy skills you get to spam.
     I'm not opposed to looking at skill trees and such, I just think that they should be lower on the list than more logical things like bugs in the current system that need to be fixed.