Alternative to Timers

[Kvetch]

Ok, you all say there must be an alternative to timers (at least on artifacts) so, let's discuss the possibilities here. 

My main thought on having timers for artifacts is so it doesn't end up where someone who has quit the game (for whatever reason) for years doesn't still hoard the artifacts that they received from quests and what not.  Thus new players will never get their hands on said artifact.  Even a player that is 3 years "new" can't get their hands on an artifact because all "copies" are being held by people who aren't playing (this includes those stash mules).  There are some artifacts that have as little as 5 copies out there.  That requires only 5 people to have their hands on them and not actually be using them for the artifact to never reload.

I wouldn't have such strong feelings about this except it's my belief that if you get something you should USE it - not stash it - not horde it (after all, we're not dragons needing a dragon's horde, right?). 

I don't really like having limits to the number of artifacts you can have at one time.  If you're good enough to do the quest or whatever, you should be able to get the artifact for however long you get it.

I also don't like that the timers only last for only a few "rl days", though since I don't know how many "a few" is I can't comment too much on that.  Perhaps we could increase timers so they last for a month - that seems fair to me.  After a month other people can try to find the artifact when it loads again - though the player with the arti will have some knowledge of worth as they'll know exactly when the artifact will be back on the market - the next time the world tries to load it (which could be anywhere from 30 minutes from that time up to 4 hours or so depending on the zone...).

So anyway, let's talk about alternatives.

[Hayato]

Brainstorming some ideas: (each idea is to be considered separately)

- First, restating my idea on game board: limit to number of artifacts + item bind
- Gold upkeep on artifacts, based on time of ownership.  Raises non-linearly when owning several artifacts.  A max cap might be needed for the tax, in case players are on hiatus.
- Option to purchase a time increase on timered items (if keeping timers).  Tradepoints/tokens as currency?
- Artifacts with no timer, but have an internal countdown for player inactivity.  Active player = keep artifact, inactive player (let's say 30 real life days) = all artifacts purged.  (Probably the best incentive to KEEP players attached the game, eh?)
- Special perze option for artifacts.  More expensive, plus restricted by number and available to owner only.  No timers on perzes.
- Huge increase on all timered items and slight increase in load chances of items, and keep the system as is (laziest option, but somewhat viable I guess)



A bit of math about the timers: If I recall, one mud hour is about 71 or 72 seconds.  If I'm right, that means:
5 mud hours = 6 real life minutes (360 seconds)
50 mud hours = 1 hour (60 minutes)
1200 mud hours = 1 day (24 hours)


I think most artifacts come with about 10k mud hours.. lets say 12k.  So that's 10 real life days for your effort spent in camping the artifact load every zone repop/mud reboot.  Usually, it literally takes several weeks of constant camping to find the item you want, due to how rare some of the loads are, and how long it takes a zone to reboot.  Given the situation now, it is definitely not worth a player's effort of camping for an artifact, much less tell a new player to go out and search for the artifacts on their own and expect the reward to be worth it.

[Kvetch]

Brainstorming some ideas: (each idea is to be considered separately)

- First, restating my idea on game board: limit to number of artifacts + item bind

Restating my thoughts: I don't like limits on number of arti's you can have.  If you're willing to work for them you should be able to use as many as you want.

- Gold upkeep on artifacts, based on time of ownership.  Raises non-linearly when owning several artifacts.  A max cap might be needed for the tax, in case players are on hiatus.

But, the whole point behind having time limits is to get the artifacts off those people that quit ages ago.  Having a max cap wouldn't solve that.  I admit it would suck if you finally got that one arti you were looking for ages for and then real life decided to rear its ugly head and you had to quit for a while and then come back - real life sucks like that.  But what about those people that suddenly can't play for, what - 4 or 5 years - should they really be able to log back in with that arti that they found however long ago instead of letting some poor newbie sap... er.. I mean someone who's logged in the last 4 or 5 years that they've been gone have an opportunity to get that arti?  And what about those people that never inteand to log back in or are created purly for the purpose of being a "stash mule" for artis?  That's why arti's went from being online only to also running while offline.  You can probably thank most people that were here before this change happened for having a stash mule that made the rule get changed.

- Option to purchase a time increase on timered items (if keeping timers).  Tradepoints/tokens as currency?

Possible, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

- Artifacts with no timer, but have an internal countdown for player inactivity.  Active player = keep artifact, inactive player (let's say 30 real life days) = all artifacts purged.  (Probably the best incentive to KEEP players attached the game, eh?)

I like this idea better, but it's like the discussion with Clan Leaders.  All they have to do is log in once for 5 seconds and they keep the arti.. that's not actually playing.  May as well go back to stash mules.  And if you want to put a set time on it what's to stop them from logging in and going AFK for set time?  But it would stop those that leave the game completely from hoarding arti's.

- Special perze option for artifacts.  More expensive, plus restricted by number and available to owner only.  No timers on perzes.

No likey.  I don't like the thought of perzing arti's only because it causes more of said arti to be in game.  There are usually reasons to have limits on items - making them artifacts - because you don't want everyone running around the world with a sword of +12/+12 dragon slaying, soul sucking, etc, etc.  Because, no matter what it's called, it's also called unbalancing the game.

- Huge increase on all timered items and slight increase in load chances of items, and keep the system as is (laziest option, but somewhat viable I guess)

Obvious by now, this is the option I prefer of those mentioned.  I really don't mind people having arti's.  I can't stop people from camping for arti's - everyone will do it if they know where what loads.  I do mind new people not being able to get arti's even if they work their butt off because all of the arti's are being held by people that don't play the game anymore.  And even those that play the game always having said artifact seems pointless unless they're actually PLAYING and not just squatting at recall making having said arti a waste of time and talent for the builders that make them.  As for load chance increase - I guess I"d have to know about how many real players we actually have - not characters - players.  If you only have 10 real players, having an arti that loads 5 copies is still awesome - though those 5 copies will probably end up going to only 1 person as they will make 5 characters and make sure they end up with them.  *coughs*  By I digress.  If you have 100 players, 5 copies makes the arti more worth having only because (provided one person doesn't make 5 character and end up with all 5 copies...) there would be 5 characters that should be held in awe BECAUSE they have the artifact.  People should want to be them and, quite frankly, should be given the chance.

A bit of math about the timers: If I recall, one mud hour is about 71 or 72 seconds.  If I'm right, that means:
5 mud hours = 6 real life minutes (360 seconds)
50 mud hours = 1 hour (60 minutes)
1200 mud hours = 1 day (24 hours)


I think most artifacts come with about 10k mud hours.. lets say 12k.  So that's 10 real life days for your effort spent in camping the artifact load every zone repop/mud reboot.  Usually, it literally takes several weeks of constant camping to find the item you want, due to how rare some of the loads are, and how long it takes a zone to reboot.  Given the situation now, it is definitely not worth a player's effort of camping for an artifact, much less tell a new player to go out and search for the artifacts on their own and expect the reward to be worth it.

Hmm.. let's see... DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME CAMPING FOR ARTIFACTS!!!!  THERE IS MORE TO THE GAME THAN THAT!!!
Ok.. now that I've stressed that point...  Camping for arti's seems a waste of time for me, but maybe that's why I became IMM instead of staying mort.  There is now way I'd be able to play that game.  I was always too interested in what the rest of the 4 dimensions held than to sit in once place (of course, I would've had to have figured out where there WAS an artifact to do it) and hope and pray that something would load.  Or is that what the stash mules are used for now?  Any time there's a reboot/crash/copyover, you all run to your favorite artifact place with the mule that was stashed in the closest room you could?  And if you say "thanks for the idea" I'll laugh because I know you all thought of it first. 

As to the timers, 10 days does seem a bit short, perhaps it could be upped or perhaps someone could say why it's 10 days.  As for me, I've put in far more than the 2 cents I usually share so I will leave off and let someone else do their kvetching.

Kvetchy

[Hayato]

Feel free to expand and add on your own ideas to my suggestions too


How can it be improved if you don't like a certain facet of it, etc.

[Hayato]

Prometheus was talking in-game about a system in the works where two timers tick independently, one for offline, one for online.  The offline one obviously having a longer time life than the online one.


Not sure if that's finalized or still up for discussion.


Anyway, I also want to suggest a combination of my suggestions:

Online timer, offline "inactivity counter".  I still think that's a fair idea, despite Kvetch bringing up the point where it's possible for players to abuse by logging in every 30 days.  My line of thinking is, if they're logging in once every 30 days, they're still attracted to the mud, you still have a chance and an incentive for them to return and play.  If they're truly inactive or moving on to other things, then they're really not going to purposely log on every 30 days just to keep the artifacts out of reach of the other players.  And I mean, making timered items an incentive to return to your character.  Why the hell not?

[Estidn]

Maybe the inactivity timer that was mentioned could be worked in with the clan leaders getting demoted to retired :-) Could kill two birds with one stone on something like that.

[horus]

You cannot design a mud based on the elite players because the elite players will always have an advantage over all other players. Whatever limiting factor you place on objects, it then becomes the target of hoarding. Now, if you remove any restrictions on artifacts, then there will be no point for the elite players to continually get that item and stash it in every single character they have. In fact, if they spend the hours each time to get the artifact, then good on them, let them stash it away - since there is no limit, it doesnt hurt anyone.

Isnt the reason why all artifacts are based on hard quests and a super duper crazy assed mob to kill? So, if you have the ability and the know how, then good on you, you deserve the artifact. At the end of the day, even if you remove all restrictions, those artifacts are still near nigh impossible for someone like me to get anyways.

So, if its almost impossible for me to get, then adding further restrictions merely ends up in the hands of the same few players anyways. The harder you find solutions to this problem, the more chance it will end up on the same players. And of course, if it might take me ten hours to get that artifact, for it to only last a certain amount of time, then its not really worth it for me to get.

[Hayato]

Horus brings up a few good points


It might even be viable to do away with artifacts (meaning timers and maxloads) completely and turn them all into normal rare load items, integrate artifacts into quests or uber mobs.


Now that I think about it, I don't really get the reasoning of creating a set of items where the purpose of them is to show the rest of the mud how uber the player is for owning 1 of 5 possible instances of that item, then turning around and trying to balance it equally for all players so uber players can't hold a monopoly over said items.

Highly counter-productive if I might say

[Tocharaeh]

Here is a simple way to fix hoarding, and what not on artis.

1) Make the maxload like any normal item
2) Script the item to bind to a player, and allowing the player to only own ONE of said item.
3) Remove the timer
4) Script the item to prevent any MOBS, clones, and/or mounts from picking up corpse holding arti and/or looting the corpse.
5) Add !melt on drop(my fav) !cursed, and other such flags to prevent players from handing them off, and/or trying to drop them. Also include a !bound flag to prevent players from slipping, and/or handing the arti off to another.

There. Now every player can officially own ONE of every arti. This means we all have equal share, and we can't work our way around the code to gain any more. Once a player picks it up, it binds, and cannot be given to another player, dropped, and so on.
Items should not cost an upkeep. Just give everyone the ability to own one of everything, and leave it at that. The artis load rarely anyhow, why should a player be punished by having to pay to play with it? Just silliness.
We all have a right to own whatever we find indeffinately. I've given you the answer to prevent people form hoarding, while allowing players equal opportunity to take a piece of the neato stuff hidden in 4D

-Tochie
loves artis, hates timers.