I just want to see how many of our players agree with the new skill tree system

[Estidn]

This is for a complete revamp. Not evening out classes spells/skills hp dam. I'm talking skill trees.

[Tocharaeh]

if yes means skill trees get in...then I vote yes. Our system SUCKS

[Tocharaeh]

Oh, and also... why are we voting on something that hasn't even been test yet? Not a single one of you actually know what is going on. If you were to look at our horrible combat system and understood what you were looking at...you'd be all for skill trees to. Horus just isn't full of hot air. No no, he really knows what he is doing, and what is best for our stagnant class system.

STAGNANT CLASS SYSTEM.

[Estidn]

Maybe before you rant on how horrible the class system is why don't you give us a few examples of why it's so terrible.

[Tocharaeh]

Sure that's simple:

No class depth.
No imagination.
Flooded with a bunch of spells as skills that don't really matter except for a couple constants.
Badly written.
Repeats of other classes, everyone is too similar. The only difference is in the names given.
No competition.
Cannot develope yourself at all, and create the kind of character you want.
No balance.
Spells and skills have been copied and pasted into the code and then had their names changed: (haha, I love that fact) Don't believe me? How about Sanctuary just acting as a second prot_from_good? Heh, morde cracks me up.


Why don't you log onto the number 1 mud, and find out WHY it is number one? I'll tell you why realy quick tho, because it is has a VERY in dpeth clss system, is highly balanced, well thgouht out, no cheap repeats of eachother to "save time". No halfassed ideas. And on top of that, you can make the kind of player you want to make within your class path. Hrm, we can't do that at all. No, we can either go GM, or not go GM.

Now, why don't you tell everyone WHY skill trees are so bad? You don't even know what they are, and have never experienced them by any means. So why debate whether or not we need something you don't understand purely because you don't understand? The persons involved in the reform of our sadly shitty system KNOW what they're doing, and how truly beneficial it would be for us. In addition, it's a friggin beta test! How can you debate something that hasn't even been tried out yet? Very counterproductive in my opinion.

[jae]

I just want to say that I really enjoy 4D as it currently is.  I haven't had as much experience as most of the people that post in the these forums, (which is why I mainly read and not so much post,) so I can't comment on a lot of stuff.  I do think from what I have seen that classes are too similar and casters seem to be incredibly powerful (haven't been one yet, but just from my observations).  I'm all for a new skill tree, but want to point out that I have been driven away from many-a-mud due to OVER complex skill systems and class dependence.  Sometimes I like to be a loner.  And call me an idiot, but from what I've read in here, I really don't understand how the new system is proposed to work.  Maybe that's just me though.

Just my 2 cents.

Jae

[Kvetch]

I'm going to agree a bit with Jae here - I really don't know how the system is supposed to work - and though I trust those that have planned it, there does seem to be a bit of confusion.  On one hand it sounds like you have to choose a skill tree and keep with it to really succeed.. on the other hand, it sounds like you can choose from all skill trees and be a "jack of all trades" if you will.  NOw, if that's right then I"m assuming that it works this way (I'm sure those that are actually working on it will be happy to jump in here and tell me if I'm completely off base - hopefully they don't use too colorful of words to do so):

If you want to specialize in a tree skill then you follow it to the max (to use our current system as an example, that would be choosing hunter and getting all of the skills up to T4, level 50) but there is no remorting after that (I"m assuming) and you will be the best of that skill tree as you can be.

The other way would be to choose to follow multiple skill trees getting a few of each tree  (to use our current system as an example, that would be like choosing hunter T1,lv 50, Mage T1, lv 50, Thief T2, lv 50 - obviously I liked theif so decided to go farther in that than the others).

As I said, I'm sure those actually involved in the skill tree will be happy to tell me I'm way off base and then they'll clarify things for those of us that are in the dark on how this is going to work.  Because, I get confused when someone tells a GM that in the new system he could basically make the same character he has now...  I really don't see how that is even with my explainations.

Kvetch

[horus]

Lets put this in perspective, if I were to try to explain to you the CURRENT gaming mechanics, you would all be confused and complain that its complicated.

All I am going to say on this matter is, we will be running the current version of the code, while playertesting a second version of the code with skill trees. It is during this playertesting (by players) that we will then decide whether to implement it or not. So volunteer to be a playertester and have a say.

[Britnoth]

Lets put this in perspective, if I were to try to explain to you the CURRENT gaming mechanics, you would all be confused and complain that its complicated.

All I am going to say on this matter is, we will be running the current version of the code, while playertesting a second version of the code with skill trees. It is during this playertesting (by players) that we will then decide whether to implement it or not. So volunteer to be a playertester and have a say.

Then, fix the current system removing unnecessary feature and making it simpler. Do not leave it as it is, adding ontop another level of features making the game even more complex to understand. Less is more people....

[Kvetch]

I guess the qustion is, is this adding to the code we alread have (thus people can still have the characters they have today if they want) or is this replacing the code we currently have (thus is a brand new ball of whack)?

[Kvetch]

All I am going to say on this matter is, we will be running the current version of the code, while playertesting a second version of the code with skill trees. It is during this playertesting (by players) that we will then decide whether to implement it or not. So volunteer to be a playertester and have a say.

Well, sign me up for playtesting.  I suppose that's the only way I'll figure out what you guys are talking about since information given seems to be 1) confusing and 2) misleading and 3) not consistant with everyone asking.

Kvetch

[Prometheus]

I think people miss the point. How does anyone know how things will work if skill trees aren't given a try. People complain about stagnation but they want the orginal classes fixed. But isn't that what skill trees will do? Give you a chance not to be stagnant? I mean people scream bloody murder when you change things but if you don't do it your way we get bitched at over it.

Prometheus

[Tocharaeh]

I think because certains people like to complain too much, other players here are getting scared.

Listen, if you're new  and have only been here a few months then you wont truly notice a thing. If you're old, well you'll notice a fresh of breath air.

Skill Trees will allow you to DEFINE YOUR PATH rather than have your oath defined. Does that make sense? There will be no class stagnatation, only stagnant players. As it stands, we have both. That isn't a good thing. Instead of getting all scared about skill trees, andf letting other people (estidn mainly) MAKE you scared, and hate the idea of a GOOD change for 4d... why not just wait, test, and judge for yourself? We are not cows here. We are humans beings... so think for yourself.

What you have to understand is is  that the combat system here is horrible. Horus can only tell you guys so many times that it is, so trust him on this. For 4d there is no "small change". If something is going to be fixed, EVERYTHING will be effected by it. Ask Prom, ask thotter, and hell even ask Diandra and Molly. They will tell you the same thing.

You as the 4D pbase are BLESSED with this extremely rare occurance where we have an actual coder who can do things the RIGHT WAY rather than a bunch of dabblers adding snipped form forum postings across teh web, and then building a mud based on those snippets. I did the very same thing when I was building my own mud. Let me tell you, it does not work. By building muds this way, you get a messy and highly unnstable system.

There are no small changes for 4d. To fix the broken system will mean changes WILL happen, and you'll feel them regardless.

All I ask you people to do is trust our coders because WE cannot do what they do. WE cannot fathom (well, I can..I've tried coding before..ick) the complexities of coding, and what they have to sift through to even allow us to kick a mob.

Here are my tips for today:

Sit back
Relax
Don't worry
Play test
Open your mind
Enjoy the game
Give feedback during testing
and finally....
DON'T WORRY.

If you do not have a bakcground in skill trees like some of us who DO, then it is best not to fret over it. Just play the game, and go about your business. Whining about everything is not productive at all.

-Toch

[jae]

Sorry, I was just trying to get some clarification on what changes are proposed.  Wasn't trying to whine or sound scared.  How can I volunteer to p-test?  Or am I too new of a player to get involved in that?  Like I said before, I enjoy 4D, and because of that I WILL continue to ask questions about these proposed changes.  I think that it is unfair that just because I am a new(ish) player and don't know a lot about coding or skill trees I should be expected to just sit back and shut my trap.  It's not my style, you know?  I like to give input and contribute to things that I enjoy, and to effectively do so I need to understand that to which I am giving input and contributing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't know if I agree with the new skill tree system yet or not because I don't know enough about it.  So sign me up for playertesting and then I'll let you know.

Jae

[horus]

Btw, I forgot to mention, this poll is stupid. We are not completely revamping the current system - I am taking what is ALREADY here, and making it clearer, and simplifying the combat engine. I really do not want to have to repeat this - its NOT a revamp.