SUBskill System

[Molly]

At present I think the subskill system is a total mess, that was left half finished and needs to be reworked completely.
Organising it will take a lot of combined efforts from Coders and Builders.
We'd actually want some volunteers in this. If you are reasonably good with the English language and know how to make simple scripts, but don't feel like taking on an entire zone - how about helping out with the subskill system?

Below is the list of what that you currently get with the command subskill in the game.

The colour code is as follows:
Green: The skill is in and working, but might need some balancing
Lime Green: The skill is actively being worked on (quests etc.)
Teal: The skill is in, but the quest is too easy and should be changed.
Red: This should be taken out completely
Orange: Might possibly be needed, but only in a detailed system
Purple What is this? Do we need it?
color=blue]Blue[/color]: Not on the current list, but needed for something in planning.
Black: The ones still in black are the ones I am unsure of.

Those of you who know more than I, and have editing rights, feel free to change the colour code in my list.
Otherwise I am looking for ideas and input on the existing skills, suggestions for new ones, opinions on which ones should be made ordinary skills instead etc.
The coders' opinions in this are particularly important, but naturally we want input from active players as well.
As you can see, I haven't used the red code for take out at all yet, but obviously it will be put to use after the discussion takes place.

There are three main group of the subskills:
- Fighting/defence skills (give various advantages in combat)
- Crafting skills (manufacture items to trade to players and mobs for TP/Tokens)
- Performance skills (mostly for show, but could earn TP/tokens)

It would be much easier to get a grip of them, if we could have the list organised in those groups. I'll try to set up another post, organising them in those groups, with some explanations.

Personally I'd like to reorganise most of the Craft skills to get some structure into the system, removing some of them completely and possibly keeping others as sub-subskills.
I'll be posting a new thread in the near future about the planned Craft system, as it currently stands. (That will involve most of the subskills marked orange in the list below.

         UNDEFINED        FuryAttack        NightRegen        DrainBlood
           Pillage         RefineOre        RefineGems      ReprocessOre
     ReprocessGems          Industry         Marketing            Barter
        SoftMining        HardMining        Sharpening     LeatherWork
         Tailoring          Surveying       Electronics      SmallShields
      LargeShields       Decyphering      HeavyWeapons      LightWeapons
           Brewing       Supervising        Management        Leadership
 GroupCoordination        HeavyArmor       MediumArmor        LightArmor
Lightsaber proficencyLightsaber Double-ended       Dogfighting      Cockfighting
    Streetfighting       DevineWater        CreateWell            Optics
           Milling       Papermaking      Scrollmaking    HeatManagement
         Glasswork      BottleMaking        VialMaking        Lumberjack
         TreeGuard        BonusSpeed       BonusAttack      BonusEvasion
       BonusDamage       Lycanthropy        StunPhaser            Juggle
           Garotte      DragonSummon        DragonTame     DragonEnchant
    DragonMounting     DragonMastery         DragonFly       DragonCargo
  DragonPassengers         BeastTame       BeastTongue       BeastMaster
        TaskMaster    UnDeadOverlord       UnDeadDemon  UnDeadMinorDemon
      UnDeadDragon      UnDeadMaster      UnDeadSummon     UnDeadWorship
              Trip          Throttle              Mask            Cloak
       ShadowCloak           Balance            Tumble             Clown
           Trapese      CharcoalBurn       BrickMaking         Tunneling
    RepelSanctuary           Undying       SweepAttack          Assemble
               Bake              Brew             Craft            Fletch
              Knit              Make               Mix            Thatch
            Weave             Forge     Instrument maker           Painter
            Potter         Repairman          Sculptor         Alchemist
            Brewer         Distiller          Perfumer       Glove Maker
            Gaffer           Glazier            Marver           Maestro
      Mirror Maker            Tanner           Furrier        Shoe Maker
      <UNUSED SUB>      <UNUSED SUB>      Metallurgist       Black Smith
           Farrier        Gold Smith      Weapon Smith          Quarrier
           Masoner      Stone Cutter        Gem Cutter       Constructor
            Weaver        Rope Maker            Tailor       Embroiderer
      <UNUSED SUB>          Woodsman            Miller         Carpenter
     Cabinet maker      Ship Builder         UNDEFINED

SpaceNavigation       
Artisan        Performer
Stoneworker     Metalworker    Woodworker    Leatherworker     Textileworker    Glassworker
Cook      Confectioner       Caterer

[Tocharaeh]

My Lycanthrope subskill actually requires extensive coding due to that is all involved. As you said in the subskills post earlier, it IS in fact an affliction along with being an advantage. I will gladly explain to you what exactly the design is for my treasured subskill...that needs coding time. However, because of the fact that it requires the undivided attention of Horus or Promethues on this (thotter just doesn't ave the time), I am not planning to have this worked on until the skill trees are coded and ready for beta test. I think it would be selfish of me to demand so much time from them when they are already working so hard.

So here is the subskill broken down.

Lycanthrope will consist of the following packs as per DnD on which this has been inspired by, and is heavily involved in my zone:

Were-Wolf:
  This is the standard of all were classes. They are agile, smart, and strong. They are voracious hunters, and work in packs together. Colors may range from black, silver, white, cedar, red, brown, and certain common mixtures of colors of fur found in several different breeds of wolf. Upon initially finishing the quest, the player can choose their identity.
Were-Lynx:
   A lynx is a medium sized feline that can be found in the deep mountains and forests. Their fur colors are limited to brow, light brown, and white. They also have to option of having black stripes added.
Were-Rat:
  This is a bipedal were being. They have opposable thumbs, and are HIGHLY intelligent, being able to do what the other lycans ( with the exception of were-Lizards) cannot do: Speak. They have the ability to wield short weapons, and prefer daggers. These particular lycans are generally hated along the lycan circles because they choose to continue to interact with humans, rather than hunt.
Were-Bear:
  This is the strongest contender of the Lycan world. Sporting large bodies, and almost limitless brute strength, these lycans tend to stay on top of the food chain when pure strength, and stamina is involved.
Players can choose amongst an assortment of basic colors found amongst the bear species.
Were-Lizard:
  This was a lycan created through the arcane by those who worshiped dragons. The Cult of Tiamat are filled with an assortment of fanatical races including humans who believe the dragons are the supreme of all beings. They too wished to be like teir great capricious masters, and created this lycan in hopes to be dragonkin. Players will be given a choice of forest green, silver, red, and black for their scale color.
Were-Spider:
  This lycan is considered an abomination to all lycans as this was a demonically inspired creation. It was a gift to te lycan God Malar God of the Hunt by the Queen of Spiders as a reward for is assistance during the great betrayal. Though a gift to Malar many thousands of years ago, such knowledge and reverence has been lost over time, and the spiders continue to be the most hated of all lycans within the accursed circle. They are reclusive, and secretive. They don’t show to be a religious race by any means, but it can happen. Spiders lose ALL EQUIPMENT SLOTS, and gain just 6 additional ring slots. Aside from rings, spiders can also spin spider silk to bind daggers onto their front legs. Spiders rely on surprise, as they lack hitpoints. Speed is their friend if they wish to survive. Spiders are not revered by drow (due to loss of knowledge in the history of the great betrayal), but instead are considered an even greater curse as they have no tie to any single world of existence. For this, drow are hated enemies.

Each species will gain, and lose eq slots because of their size, and whether or not they ave opposable thumbs.

The Design:

Lycans as they stand, with the exception of the rat, and the lizard cannot cast spells because they lack the ability to form words. Rats can also wield weapons, but are limited to daggers.

The Lycanthrope subskill is designed to actually be a levelable skill, like a brand new class to play. Wit every full moon, you turn (you have no choice). When you turn, you will lose eq slots, and gain others (not all lycans will have this happen.). You will gain the use of certain lycan abilities to balance out what you just lost. Say you’re a caster, and now you’re a were-bear: You can’t cast spells anymore (that is your lifeblood, I know) but you now have very powerful attacks such as maul, swipe, and a superior bash ability.

In addition to having new lycan abilities, you will also gain strengths, and weaknesses. For example: As a were rat, you will gain intelligent, and dex, while losing CHA, and STR. Why? Because they’re not a very strong race to begin with, nor are they very pretty to look at.

Your score will change somewhat to give you the information you need to know were you stand dmg-wise, and were exp. Lycans all start out at level one, and you must kill while in lycan form in order to go up in level/skill. The levels are broken down as follows.

LVL 1-12 = Tier 1, lvl 1-12. Total of 2bil experience is needed to complete initial growth stage.
Basic abilities and attacks open as as you level.
LVL 13-24 = Tier 2. lvl 13-24. Total of 4bil experience is needed to complete second growth stage.
New quest opens to resist moon phase imposed changes at lvl 25.
Subskill: Quelling the Beast
LVL 25-36 = Tier 3 lvl 25-36. Total of 6bil experience is needed to complete third growth stage.
New quest opens to turn from normal state to lycan and back at will at lvl 37.
Subskill: Riding the Moon
LVL 37-51 = Tier 4 lvl 37-51. Total of 8bil experience is needed to master lyncathrope.
Upon mastery of Lycanthrope, one can begin upon final lycanthrope quest (epic level) to learn the ultimate skill of Taming the Beast whereupon player can gain bipedal ability, and regain old eq slots (losing the ones gained to replace previously lost ones).
The “= tier X, lvl #-#” means that that is where they stand if they were just a regular player rather than someone who has turned.

As you level, your bonuses will go up, as will your HP. Every lycan has a set amount they will gain automatically. There is no “my bear has more hp than your bear”. All bears will be the same depending on their level. Example: a lvl 18 bear will have the max HP of 2000. So will other lvl 18 bears. What DEFINES your lycan class will be your ability to manipulate the lycan. Your mana, and movement points will remain the same, and will never change. I am using bear as an example, but tis applies to all lycan species.

When you type AFF, you will know what innate abilities you have on you based upon your species. Example (rough):
SPL: (   innate lycanthrope   )          sets LYCANTHROPE
SPL: (   innate Lizard           )          +200   to Health-regen,

Other lycans can communicate with each other with ease because they’re animals. Spacewolves will also be able to communicate with all werewolves.
The goal is not to overload any lycan with a bunch of skills, but instead give them the basics. Each have their own abilities, and strategies tied to them.

For now this is just a very rough draft of a system I need to sit with a coder to work out. They understand the complexities far better than I. I am just a dirty ol’ drow with a big idea, and a dream.

[Tocharaeh]

I just have a few questions for Molly or anyone else involved with te subskills. I've reading a bunc of the orange ones, and purples and I'd like to know what EXACTLY the plan is for them? How exactly are players supposed to benefit from them, and what is their intended impact in the mud?

Also, I see that we have a crap load of subskills out now. How are we as the player based to find them? Are these just in random quests we need to accidentally stumble on? I've noticed that, and I could be wrong, we all have the same subskills for the most part. Is there something tat could be done to give players an inkling of were to look based upon a common teme and so on?

[Molly]

I just have a few questions for Molly or anyone else involved with te subskills. I've reading a bunc of the orange ones, and purples and I'd like to know what EXACTLY the plan is for them? How exactly are players supposed to benefit from them, and what is their intended impact in the mud?

Also, I see that we have a crap load of subskills out now. How are we as the player based to find them? Are these just in random quests we need to accidentally stumble on? I've noticed that, and I could be wrong, we all have the same subskills for the most part. Is there something tat could be done to give players an inkling of were to look based upon a common teme and so on?

Those are good questions, and I am not yet sure of the answers, hence this thread.

Basically the subskills are Mord's baby, and since he left without finishing the idea, I am not sure what a load of them are supposed to do. Those would be the purple ones, and unless someone comes up with a valid use for them, I'd like to turn them red - i.e. take them out completely.

My own additions to the subskills were the Vampire skills, which I always wanted, and also the craft skills, which I know some players want, while others scorn them and prefer fighting.
I think there are two main types of players; Fighters, who prefer PK and bashing mobs and have as ultimate goal to become the strongest player in the game, and Explorers like myself, who prefer a slower pace to the game, and like to collect stuff and delve into details and solve puzzles, but aren't really into fighting. From my experience, the Fighters are not really into Quests either, they just go through them to get the best equipment, and would probably prefer that equipment to be set on strong mobs instead.
There are also two other main types of players; Roleplayers and non-Roleplayers, and that has not very much to do with whether you are a Fighter or an Explorer. I am not much into RP myself, but since they tend to be more intelligent than the average players, I'd like to attract more roleplayers into 4D.

So the craftskills - the orange ones - are mainly meant for Roleplayers/Explorers, and the purpose of them is to provide an alternative to mob-grinding, while at the same time producing good equipment, which they can sell to the fighters, and so make their own career in the mud.
I've had a Craft system set up for a very long time, but never had the time or energy to finish them. Also, it has never been decided whether the skills should be coded or script-based, or both.
I think Mord pictured them coded, but since we've lacked an active coder for a long time we started to make them scriptbased instead.

So what's in the subskill list now is a mix of what Mord originally threw in, and what I asked to have added later, based on the system I had set up by then. And the main problem is that we now have both in the list, so at least half of them should be removed. I'll post another thread explaining my craft system, as soon as I get a spare moment, with details of what I want, and don't want in the list.
But I also need to discuss with the coders how the crafts should best be set up. I think a lot of the end products need code support to look good and work as intended.

As for your other question, I think that Mord's original intention was that the players would just stumble over the subskills by chance while exploring, but personally I think that is a bad idea and only leads to frustration and/or blabbing. For the ones that I have set up so far, (like throttle and garotte and pillage for instance), there is a helpfile available, telling you who to go to and what to say to start training. And we might make a special room for the subskills too later, giving intructions about the different occupations.

And the Vampire idea is a bit like your Lycantropy - it was supposed to be a pretty complex system with both advantages and disadvantages. But unfortunately a couple of the vampire subskills were activateded prematuredly, and they are rather badly balanced, since the quest is way too easy for the powers you get with the subskill. Probably they should be disabled, untill the time that we can put the entire system into work - which probably won't be any time soon.

In summary, the present subskill system is a mess, like I initially stated, and it would need a lot of time and effort to get it in shape. Time and effort that I am not even sure that we have.

[Prometheus]

Don't forget the subskills are also broken into professions as well. If you do an professions command it breaks down which group each subskill is in. If these are gonna be change then I will need to rework what does where under each profession as well.

Prometheus

[Estidn]

Me and Mord actually had a pretty in depth conversation about the Vampire subskills and how it would work.
It was basically something that you couldnt turn off and would have to quest to have the Vampirism removed.
I.E. You run through a quest and contract Vampirism. Worked something Like this

From 5 A.M. to 3 P.M. Vampire speed, strength, HP,  would be cut in half.
From 3 P.M. to 9 P.M. Stats would remain normal
From 9 P.M. to 5 A.M. Speed, strength, HP, damage, would be boosted by a quarter.
Also can drain blood at any time.

The only thing that's a problem is the mud hours are very short and effective use of the skills would be hard.
If anyone could figure out a way to make the coding work I'd be more than happy to help out.

[Molly]

Don't forget the subskills are also broken into professions as well. If you do an professions command it breaks down which group each subskill is in. If these are gonna be change then I will need to rework what does where under each profession as well.

Prometheus

Well the professions are totally messed up too.
One short glance on the list shows that.
For instance, what is leatherwork doing in the metalworker group?
Or blacksmith and miller in the textileworker group?
And there are several more examples like that.

We need to sit down and totally rework the Professions and subskills, getting things organised and deciding what to keep and what to get rid of.

Forr starters, maybe you could explain what professions do?
Is it just a way to organise subskills in groups, or do they have any real game impact?

[Prometheus]

Then note me an list on 4d Molly and I will correct those issues since I can use my VM at work I can make those changes pretty easy myself.

Prometheus

[Molly]

Great, I will continue this thread on the Admin board then, to get input from other staff members.
No need to bore the players with details, if they are not interested.

[Estidn]

    Supervising        Management        Leadership
 GroupCoordination 

I think these should all be grouped into one skill Leadership that gives bonus for leading a group. I.E. a boost to hp or damage and increases on the size of your group.

I have other ideas that I'll post later.

[jae]

Another post of my 2 cents:

I've always wanted to get involved in professions and subskills, but there's not enough info in my opinion for me to even know where to begin.

[Kvetch]

I agree with Jae on that.  When I was playing Cati I wanted to experiance all aspects of 4D, but found myself frustrated at the skills and professions mainly because trying to figure out WHERE you get them was impossible (unless of course you want to ask people who know, but then again is that considered "quest info" so, do you ask and get your head bit off for asking about quest info or do you just randomly walk around getting killed by those aggros that you'll eventually run in to).  The other part of that was that a lot of the interesting sounding skills/professions weren't actually in the game - and if I remember right, there was really no way to tell how without doing massive searching in like the help files or what not.  I could be wrong on that, it's been a while since I've even looked at the skill/profession room.

Kvetch/Cati

[Molly]

Well, you are right that most of the Professions and Subskills aren't in the game yet, which is one problem.
Another is that I don't even know myself what some of them are meant to do, because they were Mordecai's ideas, and he never shared them.
These are the ones I'd rather have removed, unless someone comes up with good ideas how to use them. Skills like Industry, Marketing, Surveying, Electronics, Decyphering  etc. may sound cool, but they need a purpose, and I don't know what the purpose is.

I do know what most of the subskills are supposed to do, however, so I'll post some explanations in the upcoming posts.

If there are any of the subskill ideas you particularly would like to see implemented, plesae let us know, and we might put them in the priority list.

[Molly]

As promised, here are some explanations about what some of the subskills do, or are planned to do:

First the BRAVO group, with throttle, garotte, mask and cloak. These are all thief skills, and there is a pretty elaborate quest in Fenizia to learn them.

Throttle and Garotte are fighting skills of course, enhancements of strangle.
The skills also opens a number of quests in Fenizia, where you can earn tokens by carrying out contracts for the local Orsini family.

Mask hides the name of the user in the long desc, making the room message: 'A masked figure is standing here', instead of the usual 'Playername is standing here'.
- In any action the masked person would show as 'The masked figure' for instance 'The masked figure says,'...  or 'The mask figures coughs conspicioualy.'
- In the WHO list the player shows up only as 'A masked figure'.
- The player has to actually WEAR a mask for the skill to work.
- While mask is toggled, this person cannot be attacked unless someone guesses who it is, and types in the right, FULL name. 'Murder Coolguy' would work, but not 'murder co'
- Attacking or being attacked immediately breaks MASK, with the message  'You rip the mask from Playername's face.' or 'Playername sheds the mask with a diabolic laugh.'

Cloak adds HIDING to MASK, so the cloaked person only can be seen sense_life on.
  The long desc (to these with sense_life) would say 'A cloaked figure is hiding here.'
  (Otherwise it works the same as MASK).
- In the WHO list the player shows up as 'A cloaked figure'.

Shadowcloak adds invisibility, to MASK and CLOAK. People with both sense_life and detect_invis on would see: 'The shadows loom deep in one corner of the room'.
- In the WHO list the player shows up as 'An invisible lurcher'.

The Mask, Cloak and Shadowcloak subskills haven't been implemented yet, mainly due to some concerns that a certain type of player might abuse them.

The DRAGONMASTER group will be used for transport and questing in the Medieval Dimension.
A Dragonmaster will be carried by dragons to certain remote areas, the Dragonports, avoiding a lot of walking, and will also be able to take passengers, once a certain level of the skill is reached.
Some of the Dragonports are just shortcuts to existing zones, others will lead to minizones, each with a different quest to solve.
Kvetch is working on this subskillgroup, and can probably explain some more.

The NECROMANCER group, where you summon various undead creatures, is really a variation of the Elementar skills, but with more powerful followers and some suggestive echoes.
The subskills belonging to it are UnDeadWorship, UnDeadSummon, UnDeadMaster, UnDeadDragon, UnDeadMinorDemon, UnDeadDemon and UnDeadOverlord.
You need to collect certain items, before you can summon, and then perform the incantation, and there will be a Necromancer's book with information of which items you need for each creature.
The better you get in the skill, the more powerful creatures you can summon.
The drawback is that there is a certain risk of failing with the ceremony, in which case the creature that you just summoned will turn on you and devour you, instead of following you.
A bit of work has been put into this skill, and Alpha helped with the echoes, but it needs some balancing, and also a quest to learn it, which will probably be put in Hades.

The PERFORMER group, with subskills like Juggle, Balance, Tumble, Clown, Trapese, Cockfigting etc. will start some minigames, where you either succeed in your performance and get rewarded with gold and exp by players and mobs in the same room, or fail, in which case they will pelt you with rotten tomatoes and you lose exp instead.
Obviously this is mostly for fun and entertainment, but a skilled performer can use it as an alternative to mobgrinding.
Some work has been put into the succeed/fail messages of this skillgroup, but to my knowledge Juggle is the only one that is already in.
I'd like Thotter to work on the rest, since he is so good at minigames, (but I ain't sure that I can convince him of doing it).

That's all for today, I'll explain more subskills in coming posts.

[Kvetch]

The DRAGONMASTER group will be used for transport and questing in the Medieval Dimension.
A Dragonmaster will be carried by dragons to certain remote areas, the Dragonports, avoiding a lot of walking, and will also be able to take passengers, once a certain level of the skill is reached.
Some of the Dragonports are just shortcuts to existing zones, others will lead to minizones, each with a different quest to solve.
Kvetch is working on this subskillgroup, and can probably explain some more.

Shoot and here I was thinking other people could explain to ME what these skills were supposed to do.  So.. from the help files in game (in the order of that I think they'll be needed):
Dragon Mastery
This is the main skill used when dealing with dragons.  The more powerful the dragon you summon, the more powerful Dragon Master
you will need to be to control and get the best from the dragon. It counts for ability to summon, tame, mount and fly a dragon. 
This skill can be practiced by using the other dragon skills.

So, as stated, this is THE main skill - you will have no other dragon master skill until you have this one.  As this skill improves, you will be able to able to summer a more powerful dragon. 


Dragon Summon
This skill is used to summon a dragon to the rider or Master. The rider's Dragon Mastery level, decides the level of the dragon that
is summoned.  The higher the level, the better the dragon summoned. Dragon Mastery also effects the time it takes to summon a dragon.

So, this is the skill that actually summons the dragon - but it doesn't make the dragon follow you - that's next.

Dragon Enchant
This skill allows the Rider or Master to tame the newly summoned dragon. The higher this skill is, the more likely it will not turn on its master.  Only summoned dragons can be Denchanted.

So, this is the skill that, if it works, forces the dragon to befriend you and follow you.

Dragon Tame
This ability gives a better chance to enchant a newly summoned dragon, and also control the dragon better when in flight and with a load.

Personally, I don't see much of a difference between this and dragon enchant.  If I had my way I'd make them into one skill.

Dragon Mounting
This skill allows a Rider to mount a newly summoned and enchanted dragon. This skill once practiced, will allow the rider to mount the dragon without agitating the dragon.

So think of this as a way to get a landbound (until you have the dragon fly skill) mount.

Dragon Cargo   
This skill allows the rider of a dragon to be able to carry cargo on its mount.  How well you are trained in this skill decides how much cargo the dragon can carry. A high level summon dragon is needed for this.

Basically allows you to have your dragon mount carry stuff as well as serve as a mount.  The better your skill, the more weight the dragon can carry.  Of course you need to be able to summon a high enough dragon.

Dragon Fly
This ability is automatic and is practiced by flying upon a dragon. The more this skill is practiced, the less chance of the Rider falling
off or losing control, as well as increasing the speed of the dragons flight.

This skill is teaching a dragon how to fly with a rider.  Better your skill at this, less often you will fall off into radom rooms and faster your dragon will get to its destination.

Dragon Passengers
This skill allows a rider to have more control when passengers are on the dragon.  The more this skill is raised, the less chance of the rider and his or her passengers getting bucked off during flight.

This allows the dragon master to take his group - or paying individuals/groups - to remote locations.  As you had to train your dragon to carry supplies, you now have to train them to carry other people.  People that move and squirm are much harder to carry than things that stay put if they're strapped down right.  If you want to get everyone to the destination, you may want to make sure you've a high score so the pasengers don't get bucked off (or lose their grip).