The CRAFT System

[Molly]

Here is the craft system as it stands presently:

There are 6 main CRAFT PROFESSIONS;
Glassworker, Leatherworker, Metalworker, Stoneworker, Textileworker, Woodworker.

It has to be decided how the subskill system for them should be set up, however.

Either each profession could also be the subskill, in which case there will
only be the above 6 subskills totally for the Crafts.

Or alternately each Profession could have 5 subskills. (see the list below).

PROFESSION: GLASSWORKER
Subskills:
- Gaffer
- Glazier
- Marver
- Maestro
- Mirrormaker

PROFESSION: LEATHERWORKER
Subskills:
- Tanner
- Furrier
- Shoemaker
- Glovemaker
- Armourer

PROFESSION: METALWORKER
Subskills:
- Metallurgist
- Blacksmith
- Farrier
- Goldsmith/Jeweller
- Weaponsmith

PROFESSION: STONEWORKER
Subskills:
- Quarrier
- Masoner
- Stonecutter
- Gemcutter
- Constructor

PROFESSION: TEXTILEWORKER
Subskills:
- Weaver
- Ropemaker
- Tailor
- Embroiderer
- Robemaker

PROFESSION: WOODWORKER
Subskills:
- Woodsman
- Miller
- Carpenter
- Cabinetmaker
- Shipbuilder

The current list of craft related subskills looks like this:
RefineOre   RefineGems   ReprocessOre  ReprocessGems  SoftMining   HardMining        
Sharpening     LeatherWork  Tailoring  HeatManagement
Glasswork  BottleMaking  VialMaking
Lumberjack    CharcoalBurn    BrickMaking   Tunneling
Glove Maker    Gaffer  Glazier  Marver  Maestro   MirrorMaker
Tanner  Furrier   Shoe Maker
Metallurgist    Black Smith    Farrier   GoldSmith  WeaponSmith
Quarrier    Masoner  StoneCutter   GemCutter  Constructor
Weaver   RopeMaker   Tailor  Embroiderer
Woodsman   Miller    Carpenter   CabinetMaker  Ship Builder

and would turn into either this:
Glassworker  Leatherworker  Metalworker  Stoneworker  Textileworker  Woodworker

or, dependant of how detailed we want it,  this:
Gaffer  Glazier  Marver  Maestro  Mirrormaker
Tanner  Furrier  Shoemaker  Glovemaker  Armourer
Metallurgist   Blacksmith  Farrier  Goldsmith  Weaponsmith
Quarrier  Masoner  Stonecutter  Gemcutter  Constructor
Weaver  Ropemaker  Tailor  Embroiderer  Robemaker
Woodsman  Miller  Carpenter  Cabinetmaker  Shipbuilder

There could also be some other Craft related professions, for instance:

PROFESSION: ARTISAN
- Instrument maker
- Painter/Dyer
- Potter
- Sculptor
- Repairman

PROFESSION: BREWER
- Brewer
- Distiller
- Perfumer
- Potionmaker
- Alchemist

PROFESSION: SCRIBE
- Papermaker
- Bookbinder
- Scrollmaker
- Scribe

PROFESSION: CATERER
- Baker
- Confectioner
- Cook
- Caterer

Some of the above trades are already in planning, like cooking-catering and brewing

[Tocharaeh]

I ave expressed great interest in the leatherworking subskill set in the past for my zone due to the 90% chance of Lycanthrope being suspended until the completion of skill trees. I would like to learn the finer details on how to sit down and write the system out as I am not well versed in these systems. Heh, I'm a writer not a coder...sadly WHY CAN'T I BE BOTH?! O ya, cuz um...writing is my niche

[Molly]

The Purpose of Crafting

The top skill for a Glassworker would be Mirrormaker, to make a new item for evasive defence
The top skill for a Leatherworker would be Armourer, to make armour.
The top skill for a Metalworker would be Weaponsmith, to make weapons.
The top skill for a Stoneworker would be Contractor, to make personal houses and lockers.
The top skill for a Textileworker would be Robemaker, to make magical garments
The top skill for a Woodworker would be Shipbuilder, to make personal vehicles

The different Crafters would manufacure weapons and/or armour, mainly using wear_locs that are not otherwise available in the game, to avoid conflicts with the Quest equipment.
The wear_locs excluseively intended for crafted items are:
- thumb (left and right)
- saddle (only for mounts)
- ear tip
- shoulder (left and right)
- thigh  (left and right)
- knee (left and right)
- floating about

The Crafters could also make equipment for normal wear_locs, but these should be of mediocre strength, and mainly done to raise your skill and sell the item to mobs. Trading with mobs should always be a part of crafting, even though the main customers would be other players. Shopkeepers in Olde Yorke and other cities could be set to buy the products for TP.

Metalworkers,  Leatherworkers and Textileworkers would be the main professions for making equipment - Weasponsmith, Armourer and Robemaker being their top skills.

But creating weapons and armour would also need the cooperation of two or more crafters, (who could or could not be the same person, dependant on how many crafts a player is allowed to learn).

- For instance a sword would need a blade (metal-or glassworker), a hilt (woodworker), a pommel (metal-, stone- or glassworker), and be forged by a Weaponsmith (metalworker).
- A protective plate for the thigh would need the plate itself, (metal- or glassworker), some padding made of wool and linen (textileworker), and the straps to fasten it (leatherworker). It would all be assembled by an Armourer (leatherworker).
- Magic clothes would be created by Textileworkers, working with different kinds of adornments to enhance the garments, which would involve the other professions and also the aid of collectors of items like feathers, pearls, jewels etc..

In addition some crafters could make their own special objects;
- Stoneworkers, Glassmakers and Woodworkers could make magic items, like wands and staffs, and vials for potions.
- Woodworkers could also make ranged weapons, like bows and arrows.
- Goldsmiths, stonecutters and glassmakers could work with jewels, beads, engraving, filigran work etc., both as enhancing adornments on weapons and armour and for specific items like thumb rings.
- Leatherworkers could make harness for horses, like bridles, halters, saddles and saddlebags, which could all add to the performance of a mount. They could also make collars for pets, for instance for sheepdogs and cattledogs, allowing them to herd cattle on command.
- Stoneworkers would also be quarriers, producing stone and coal needed for the crafts.
Naturally we'd be grateful for input and ideas about cool items that the different crafters could produce. (If possible things that don't already exist in the game. Again we don't want any conflicts with powerful quest items).

As a sideline, Metalworkers would also be farriers, and shoe horses, which would upgrade a mount (considerably raising its movepoints, stamina and strength, possibly adding 1 or 2 tiers to it). This would need to be timered for as long as the shoes last.

Coding support

We'd need coding support to give very limited OLC access in the game port to the highest skilled Stone- and woodworkers (producing houses, lockers and ships).

Most of the crafts could be run by scripts, but in some cases materials, and possibly also colours, should play a part.

The main problem is that the end products when it comes to weapons and armour really should be coded, to get a varied outcome of the crafting process, while at the same time keeping the balance.
Material, crafting skill an a bit of random luck should all play a role in the result.

- For instance a glass blade could be extremely sharp, but also brittle, and so break easily.
- Certain metal alloys should be better than others. (This could be random or calculated).
- Different kinds of wood would be better than others for certain purposes.
- Different colours could be bearers of different magical properties, so that the textileworker could choose what stats they would put on their item.
- It would also be nice if the descs of a garment could be coded to reflect the colour and material used, during the entire process.

All this would need a lot of time, effort and calculation - again something that I am not sure that we have the capacity for. It needs a coder dedicating his time specifically to crafts for quite some time. And I am not sure if any of our coders has the interest for this particular feature.

Meanwhile, we'll probably go for a simpler system, with fewer variables, based only on skill and luck.

Some decisions that will have to be made (mostly for balance reasons):

- How many Professions should one player be allowed to learn?
  Originally I thought one per char, but seeing as our playerbase is limited, and cooperation between crafters is part of the system, we probably need to allow more).

- What stats and max addaffect points would be allowed on the new wear_locs?

- What stats and max addaffect points would be allowed on crafted items for 'normal'  wear_locs?

- There should always be a risk of failure in crafting,
  as well as the odd chance of producing something out of the ordinary.
  What percentage, and how should it be tied to subskill level?

- Should crafted items be timered i.e show effects of wear and tear and finally break?
- If so, should they be possible to repair?

[horus]

Sorry, I am going to have to treat this as the lowest of priority at the moment - it wont come in until after we finish the skill trees.

[Molly]

Guess that means we'll go for a scripted system for now, and leave the advanced stuff like metallurgy, materials and colour affections for later - if ever. 

All we need in code support then are the basic subskills to be put in, so that they can be trainable, which should be a quick fix.

We also need a decision if we should go for the simple or detailed number of subskills for the crafts (see the first post).
My own preference would be to go for the simple version. We can always work with the percentage level of the skill to determine the training quests and the outcome of the crafting process.

I mainly want to weed out the stuff that we won't be using in foreseeable time from the subskill list.

Then we can work with the different scripted craftskills at our leisure. And volunteers for the scripting part would be welcome.

We can still do a lot with a more limited number of end products, even if the result won't look as cool.
Again - ideas for products that don't interfer with other aspects of the game are welcome.

[Xeriuth]

Hmm scripting, I need to start re-dabbling again. Maybe I can actually be helpful for once.

[Kvetch]

The Purpose of Crafting

The top skill for a Leatherworker would be Weaponsmith, to make weapons.

I know it's been a while since anyone posted on this, but I've been kinda thinking about the idea and still want this at he top of some thoughts.  As I reread this though, I questioned one thing - what sort of weapon would a person that works with leather be able to make?  - other than possibly a sap.  Basic weapons are usually made of wood (clubs, basic spears (no stone point), bow and even a basic arrow) or metal (swords, daggers, etc etc).

Just a question to bump this discussion up. 

[Molly]

Oh shit, I see I typoed in my earlier post, I'll fix that after I finish this. :-P

Weapons - like swords, daggers, axes and such,  would of course be made of Weaponsmiths, which is at the top of the Metalworker skills.

They would be dependent on other Crafters for the parts of the weapons, however.
The blades they would made themselves, with the exception of glass blades.
The hilts they would typically by from Woodworkers. (These could also be made from metal, but that would be inferior to wood).
Also to enhance the grip of a hilt, it should be wrapped with leather strips, produced by Leatherworkers.
The pommels they would typically buy from Stoneworkers. (Again, pommels could be made from other materials, but those would be inferior to stone, especially gemstones).

Armourer would be the Top skill for Leatherworkers.
They too would have to buy parts of the armor, (like breastplates, leg plates, padding, etc.), from other Crafters, but the actual assembly of the armour could only be done by an Armourer.

Robemaker, the top skill of Textileworker, would make clothes for Spellcasters.
They would have to buy gold and silver thread for embroideries from a goldsmith.
A mage's robe, to be of top class, would need to be decorated with various items, to enhance the magic, like feathers, pearls, mirrors (from Glassworkers), jewels (from Stoneworkers) etc.

Woodworkers would have Shipbuilder as top skill, meaning they would be able to make vehicles on line.
They would however also make ranged weapons, like bows, arrows, spears and javelins and of course cudgels.
Again they would have to buy the spearheads and arrowheads from other Crafters, as well as the string for the bow, and the thread to fletch the arrows.

The idea is that all Crafters would have to be dependant on others to excel at their craft.
Each of them would also produce some things that they could trade directly, without involving other Crafters, but those objects would not be as valuable. (See the descriptiomn of the system in my second post on the thread).

[Virisin]

I don't like most craft systems at all really and I'm still skeptical (to say the least) about the proposed craft system for 4d. I don't think crafted equip fits in with our questing brand and just making new wear locations for crafted equipment doesn't really solve this. It doesn't allow players that only want to craft to be able to just craft and get by, it just means everyone has to do a little bit more in order to get a full set of equipment.

What I would prefer: with the changes there is potential to change the way innates work with equipment, currently they are just a way of making good items even more awesome, and really only devalue a lot of spells as well as making things a little more convenient for players. With a PWipe and equip balance we could possibly add gem slots to weapons as a way of allowing players to customize their own equipment through the addition of innates. Gems are something I see fitting into a crafting type system (though they could also fit into gypsy skilltrees or any caster skilltree depending on what innate someone wants). I don't think if we do implement crafting it should make it's own equipment for normal body positions or for unique body positions, I think if 4d is to implement crafts we should use them as a way of customizing normal equipment rather than creating equip from scratch.

[horus]

I am pretty crap in this area, so I really cannot contribute to this. Make a decision on what should be done, and I will get it implemented.

[Tocharaeh]

I have some input on this subject, but I wont post it until tomorrow when I have more time. Just want to let you know.

[Molly]

Well I'm open for any suggestions, when it comes to crafts.

A fact is that there are players who really like crafting, and specifically look for it in a game.
It brings diversity, and in my opinion that is always a good thing. It would also offer an alternative way of developing a character to players who don't have the talent for Questing.

Personally I think the special wear_locs could work as a part of our system. It would provide the crafters with a market where to sell the items, and there has to be some sort of substantial reward, for the feature to actually work. Out of bitter experience  I know that any new feature, that doesn't offer a permanent reward at least equal to mob grinding, will not be used, once the first novelty wears off.

However, there might be better ways to set up a crafting system than the one I had planned, so feel free to come with alternate suggestions for a working system.

One thing is sure however, crafts will be put on hold until we get a better grip on the skilltree system, and can evaluate if the crafts can fit into that system in any way. Perhaps as Viri suggested as a way to enhance weapons and armour, by honing, sharpening, decorating or repairing (the latter only if we introduce wear and tear).

What I probably will go through with in any case is Cooking/Catering, which is mostly finished already, and Brewing, which will be a way to produce things like potions, perfumes and beer from recipies and various ingredients that you have to collect - (the potions will of course be the main product).

[Kvetch]

I tend to think more basically so the following is just a basic thought.  The craft system as Molly has listed seems rather .. involved.  To me, most of the crafts are actually what's listed as subskills under her professions and maybe that just means I'm reading it wrong.  I understand the use for Armorers, Blacksmiths, Jewelers, Tailors, but the rest to me seems like "fluff" to hammer out a deeply involved crafting system.  But get too involved and players won't use it because it's complicated.  Maybe my problem (as I re-read what Molly wrote) is I seem to see what she has as the top level of the profession - as the profession itself - not as part of the profession.  Anyway:

I'll use Molly's example as I complete this example of the life of a sword.
They would be dependent on other Crafters for the parts of the weapons, however.
The blades they would made themselves, with the exception of glass blades.
The hilts they would typically by from Woodworkers. (These could also be made from metal, but that would be inferior to wood).
Also to enhance the grip of a hilt, it should be wrapped with leather strips, produced by Leatherworkers.
The pommels they would typically buy from Stoneworkers. (Again, pommels could be made from other materials, but those would be inferior to stone, especially gemstones).

Let's look at the basic life of a sword:
1) get the metal (whether it be mined or is rewarded from a quest) - this could set up mining as some sort of subskill that would be needed.
2) metal goes to metalsmith/blacksmith/weaponsmith-whatever to make the blade.
- Player then has to decide if they just want the metalsmith/blacksmith/weaponsmith-whatever to make the hilt as well - if so basic sword.
3) Player decides he wants a sword that's better than basic, so takes the blade to a Woodworker for a hilt. - basic sword +1.
- Player then has to decide if this is good enough or if they want an even better sword.
4) Player decides for better so goes to a leathermaker to make the grip. basic sword +2
- AGain, player has to decide if they want better, of course they do.
5) Player goes to a stoneworker for a pommel - basic sword +3. (sword is considered completed)
- Player has even more options for a sword as now you can get into making it magical.  You can only make "completed" weapons magical (at least imo as they'd have the stamina to -hopefully- stand up to the rigors of having spells cast on them).
6) Player finds/mines/whatever some gems.
7) Player takes gems to a Gemcutter.  Gemcutter works the gems into worked gems.  Only worked gems can give bonuses or have magic placed in them.
Player takes worked gems and sword to a jeweler/weaponsmith/whatever and has the gem put into the pommel of the sword (more advanced swords could have space for more than 1 gem making it more powerful).  The gem - depending on color/size/ability of the gemcutter - gives the sword some sort of bonus or magical property.
9) Possibly (and I'm not sure how probable this is to do) player could go to a spellcaster (mage/priest/etc) and have a (temporary) spell placed on the sword.  (Possibly some quests could give out permanent spells.) This spell would be based off the rank of the person's ability in that spell.

So, we need gatherers to get the original products - like miners (is this what the metallurgiest is?) for metal/gems, lumberers/woodsmen(?) for wood/trees, Quarrier(?) for stone, etc (hides to tan, wool to weave).

People to work the product (based on profession) and people to put the product together (again, based on profession).

I guess my idea isn't as unlike MOlly's as I'd originally thought.  She just has a lot more subskills than I would have thought of.

[Asmodeus]

All that would be done by players, correct Kvetch?  I only ask because if parts are done by mobs, it just sounds like another quest.

Also, the better someone is at their craft, the better the blade/hilt/etc would turn out.  If you wanted the best sword you could possibly make, you're not going to take it to someone who just started weaponsmithing and woodcrafting, you would take it to those who are masters at their craft.  Are you thinking about different levels of items depending on the level of crafter who makes them?  (perhaps this is mentioned in the forum already, i only scanned it very quickly)

[Virisin]

Looking back at what I said about gems, after hearing an idea from Kvetch (who I think is about to elaborate further) this could be further expanded and incorporated into our skill-trees. Crafting could either be some kind of 'general' skill tree that is available to every class, or even another tree for Gypsies only. So people could choose whether they wanted to learn enough crafting skills to get by on their own, or get a good crafter to do it for some fee.

What I think is of utmost importance though is that crafting should be a way of altering normal equip, not making brand new equip. Otherwise it just won't ever work with 4d.