Author Topic: 4dimensions  (Read 17311 times)

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Offline Virisin

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4dimensions
« on: September 26, 2010, 03:52:21 pm »
I was thinking about 4d last night in bed, and I came up with what I think is a pretty cool idea. I don't think it'll ever be implemented but I wanted to discuss it anyway just to see what people thought. It's a unique idea as far as I know, but I think would suit the needs of 4d amazingly.

Basically, 'zone-levels'. I think it would be cool if characters on 4d didn't have normal levels at all, they had 'zone-levels' which could be different for every zone. 'Zone-levels' would represent how much of a zone someone had completed, with level 100 being absolutely everything there is to accomplish in a zone, accomplished. This would mean players could have quite vastly different strengths depending on where they are in the world, and would likely have some kind of cloud around the dimension start points where they are highest level, with their levels decreasing the further and further they got from the dimension start points as zones get further away and harder to complete.

There are a few reasons why I think this is a good idea:

Firstly, it really puts a real emphasis on the zones of 4d, which really are the backbone of 4d's awesomeness.

Secondly, it would allow new players to compete with old players quite quickly, but not in an unfair way: a new player just finished mud school, hopefully getting up over level 70 by doing most of what there was to do, starts exploring Olde Yorke. There arn't that many things to do in Olde Yorke, so getting to a high level wouldn't be so hard. New players could quickly gain levels and be at least relatively strong in Olde Yorke. They would certainly be no challenge to an older, experienced player out in the nether regions of 4d, but right there in Olde Yorke they at least stand a chance, similar in levels and only hindered by equipment. New players would be able to very quickly start competing with older players.

This could also potentially open more features for zones themselves, I havn't fully thought this through, but getting to level 100 in a zone could allow for creatures to jump to your aid in battle, or the other way around...

I will post more as I remember other things I thought of last night.

Offline Virisin

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2010, 03:59:21 pm »
It could be possible to make mobs invisible to players below a certain level, so that you complete different aspects of the zone and then unlock new ones as you go. Perhaps just getting higher in level you get to see the higher level mobs previously invisible, and once you can sense them they get aggressive.

This could also make PK more interesting as players could legitimately have 'home turfs', or zones they are much higher level in than other zones, and hence more willing to fight there than somewhere else.


Offline Virisin

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2010, 07:34:39 pm »
I think it would be a cool unique feature anyway :-*

Offline Kvetch

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2010, 09:49:06 pm »
I know a lot of people that start building ask me this question: can we change things if someone does something.  And my answer is always "sorry, doesn't work that way".  The thought behind it being... well... an example is probably best here.  I'll post something I seem to remember from someone... anyway, the idea was that there is this area, perhaps a forest that is being drained by the magic of some witch or something.  Once you kill said witch, the area should revert back to what it normally would be - a living thriving place.  The only way I could come up with how to do it was basically to build 2 zones that would sort of lay on top of each other - once you succeed in killing the witch you'd be teleported into that other zone that, other than room descriptions, would be a lot like the zone you were in.  But, that's not the same thing as to what people want.

I've started a zone based on a tv series that I've become addicted too and I'm back to wishing for the exact same thing.  Or something similar.  I'd like moba to be located in roomA as long as questa hasn't been completed.  Once questa is completed then moba should be located in roomB and not rooma (but for others that haven't done the quest, it should still load in rooma).  I've tried to think of ways around this, but usually come up with some reason or other that the trick I"m thinking of won't work.  Just thought of one more and will have to see if it works - later.

Offline Jaros

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 07:12:01 am »
I like these ideas.

Offline Molly

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 02:07:15 am »
I know a lot of people that start building ask me this question: can we change things if someone does something.  And my answer is always "sorry, doesn't work that way". 

I think Kvetch ideas are partly possible to carry out, but it needs a lot of extra building and scripting. I've done the "forest destroyed by witch" idea on a small scale in the Alpha planets Slunch and Yalc, where you are transported to a parallell zone after the cataclysm. Of course, in the Alpha planets this only affects the player that started the event, based on a remote flag, and I think what the players actually want is a change that would affect every one. But it would be perfectly possible to open the parallell zone to all players, until someone completes the quest, and everything reverts to normal, i.e. the original zone is put back in. This is an idea that I really like, since all players could be involved in the effort of saving the forest, and until someone figures out how to do it, the zone stays in the devastated state.

Perhaps coding in double room descs, could make this easier, since then you wouldn't have to make double rooms, just an extra desc for each one. We already have the code base for this in the 'night descs' that Anubis coded in. These haven't been used much so far, mainly because builder activity has been low after the addition was implemented. But I think it would be pretty easy to use the same code for double descs in a zone.

In any case, it can be done, albeit with some work. And since we already have more zones than we really need, one idea could be to grab an existing zone and then 'destroy' it by building a parallell one. I suppose this would need the consent of the original builder though. Personally I wouldn't be overly happy, if someone - (other than myself, of course) - decided to flood Fenizia, turning it into an underwater city, until som player managed to figure out how to close the flood gates again...

But it's an intriguing idea...
And perhaps it would be a great way to revive some of the oldest and least interesting zones...

Offline Kvetch

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 09:00:00 am »
Even if the changes are put in until the next reboot of the zone, I think that would let quite a few builders that asked me that question do what they want.  What I"m saying is if there is a way to do another description like the night descriptions which is the description used if "kill the witch" quest is done.  So, if the builder chose the 2 hour reboot time and it only takes 20 minutes for someone to kill the witch (from the time it's reset) then the base description would be used for the first 20 minutes and then the "quest completed description" is used for the last hour and forty minutes, until the witch regains power and destroys the forest again.  Of course, if a builder wanted, they could choose the "never reset" option and the quest completed description would be used until the mud crashed/rebooted.    Or to make it easier to redo old zones, the basic room description would be the "quest completed description" while a secondary description would be the way the zone looks before the quest is completed.  Something like the flooding of Fenizia, I would assume would be a once per crash/reboot sort of quest, to open it up for the major quests that are part of it.


Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 05:50:19 pm »
When I was working on Selgaunt, I had been working on the same idea if Molly remembers.

Basically the seas were void of life until a lucky player managed to solve the ultimate mystery in the zone. Once the mystery was solved, and the quest completed, the seas would be suddenly abundant with sea life that were previously non-existent. The condition being met, and the mystery solved, would be permanent. Anyone could do the quest, but the honor of saving the sea would lie with the first person to complete it.

I think the best way to load life based upon a quest would be to do it all via special load scripts where they check to see if a condition has been met, and if it has not, then nothing loads. I suck at scripting, so I wouldn't know. :/
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline Virisin

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 09:07:05 pm »
I don't think it would be that hard, especially if Anubis has already set up night descs, to duplicate and alter that code to allow the flexibility you want Kvetch.

Offline Molly

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 10:18:17 am »
I think the best way to load life based upon a quest would be to do it all via special load scripts where they check to see if a condition has been met, and if it has not, then nothing loads. I suck at scripting, so I wouldn't know. :/

There are several ways to set up a scenario like that. One condition is usually that there is only one way to enter the zone, so that you can put a script on that entrance room and make the rest of the rooms !teleport_in.  After a player solves the mystery, a wizinvis mob will be loaded, who will load the rest of the mobs in the appropriate rooms. The first script would also add a zone_reset script on the entrance room, that would perform the same thing each time someone enters the zone, (provided the mobs aren't already loaded). This is a way to make the zone populated for every player that enters, after the initial puzzle has been solved by someone.

Depending on what you want, you could also make it so that the sea only gets populated when a player who actually solved the quest himself enters it. A script on the first room would check if the player has the right flag and, dependent on that flag, start the mob script that loads the rest of the population. (In that case the mobs would all need a script to purge themselves each time the zone resets, or they'd stay until someone kills them). If someone without the right flag enters the zone, it just stays empty.

However, if it were me, and if I really wanted the change to be permanent, and the first player to get the eternal glory on a plaque after solving the mystery and saving the ocean, I'd probably just exchange the zone file. I'd have a zone file with full resets ready, but use an empty duplicate until the initial quest was solved. Scripts are fun, but they sometimes screw up. So why risk complications and add to the memory load, unless it's necessary?

On a different note, you'll have to learn to write your own scripts, Toch. This may sound a bit harsh, but the truth is, that you cannot depend on others to do your scripting. It takes some effort and some testing and experimenting, but the only way to really get better at scripting is to start out simple and then learn from your own errors, like the rest of us have. I'm certainly willing myself to give suggestions, to answer questions, when I can, and also to provide examples, if I have any, but I am not going to write your scripts for you. And I am pretty sure the same goes for the rest of the staff. We all have our own projects that take priority.

Perhaps you can persuade someone else to do some scripting for you. There are several players who don't really want to build themselves, but are good at dabbling with scripts. But this is always a gamble. If your helper tires in the middle of the job, you'll be stuck with a number of half finished scripts, which you have zero chance of fixing yourself, because you don't understand how they are supposed to work. And there is a definite risk of that happening. It's happened to me, so I know how frustrating that situation can become. In the end there aren't really any shortcuts - if you want to be sure that a job is finished, you need to do it yourself.


Offline Molly

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2010, 12:05:19 pm »
Getting back on subject, what I had in mind was something a bit more complex than just a load script to populate an empty zone.

To elaborate on my Fenizia example, the plot could be that the Dwarves and the Gypsies, who both have grudges against Fenizia, decided to work together to destroy the city. Perhaps a player would be sent with a bribe to the Gypsy Queen, to start the disaster. The Gypsy Queen would then put a curse on the floodgates, causing them to stay open, and flood the city completely.

From now on the water level is 5 m higher than normal, showing only the roofs of the city. All the palace interiors are turned into underwater zones, and you need a waterlung to enter them. None of the usual fenizian quests work as long as this condition remains. The inhabitants have all fled the water masses, but one or two of them could be found in another city, to send you on a quest to rescue the city. Any player, or a group of players, could carry out this mission, but until someone does - or the Mud is rebooted (max once a week) - the normal Fenizia zone would be disabled and substituted with a parallell zone.

This is all pretty easy to achieve by just by a script that changes the zone entrance to a new vnum. What takes a lot of more work is to build the duplicated flooded zone. But since the main structure of the two zones would be identical, the flooded zone could be done directly in the file, which would minimize the work needed. Only room descs and flags would need to be changed, and of course the new zone would need its own set of underwater mobs.

Similar ideas could be carried out with any existing zone that only can be entered from one room. One example could for instance be a planet, where the climate might change drastically because of some alien device, turning it into a desert or an icy tundra, until someone manages to counteract the device and restore the vegetation.

Scenarios like these could either be player driven, or run as global events by the staff. The positive thing with them is that they would be reversable and repeatable after a while, making the extra work a bit more justified. As everybody should know by now, I hate to see hard work getting wasted, which is one reason why I am no fan of one-time events.

In any case; if players really like to be able to change the world more or less permanently, this would be a way to letting them have their way, under controlled forms.

Offline Once

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 09:14:17 pm »
This idea does not suck, which is surprising considering its source. I'm going to steal parts of it quite liberally.

Thanks,
Once

Offline Virisin

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 03:28:54 am »
:-*

Offline horus

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Re: 4dimensions
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 04:25:15 am »
I dont know how Virisin's idea of zone levels for players turned into something quite different, without anyone commenting on Viri's zone level idea.