Poll

Would You Support A PWipe?

Yes
16 (48.5%)
No
12 (36.4%)
Depends
5 (15.2%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Player Wipe (PWipe)  (Read 121203 times)

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Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #135 on: November 18, 2009, 04:58:16 am »
I really hope I havn't come across as thinking anyone's opinions are worthless or invalid, and I certainly don't think Anubis or anyone else meant to either. The reason I make so many posts on the forum is because I really do want to know what other peoples opinions are on things, I quite often require a good discussion to cement my own opinion. Yes, I understand I argue fairly staunchly once I've made up my opinion, I know that and I apologize if I come across as condescending at times.

I'm actually quite gutted reading this line though:
The point of a mature, ADULT discussion/debate is to discuss different ideas and seek out different opinions and LISTEN to them, not just say "NO, what you think is not valid, fuck off".
I have honestly done my best to spark constructive debate on all of these issues, and have made a pointed effort to read and reply to every post made. Almost all of my posts are probably too long, but I specifically tried not to simply sound like I was dismissing anyone's posts or swearing at anyone.

:-\

Edit: Ah, you edited your post. I might just leave mine here because I imagine you're not the only one thinking what you did write, and my post can be directed at everyone. :)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 05:48:35 am by Virisin »

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #136 on: November 18, 2009, 05:05:52 am »
mmmm long meaty posts. *highfives viri* we should get statues for being long winded.
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Offline Kvetch

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2009, 10:27:42 am »
Ok, so let me get the two lines of thought I see written:
1) Pwipe - complete and total.  Gets rid of any unique/horded/uber eq.  Gets questflags off players so they can redo the quests.  Makes it so eq is how it is supposed to be.  Gets rid of any eq that someone may have bought with tokens from an overused bug/builder not seeing the big picture/etc.  

Balances the economy (goldwise) causing mobs to drop less gold (as they should) and letting items (like potions) cost less (as they should) instead of gold economy being non-existant due to the amount of gold everyone (except newbies) has.  Balances the token economy (overall - as older players have knowledge of quests and thus will be able to get their tokens again realatively quickly -but again, gets rid of things that were bought with tokens players shouldn't have had).

2) No pwipe, but you can lower me to level 1 and I want to keep my house/perz/rpeq/mount/marriage/etc.  Keep the questflags on so I can't redo the quests.  Perz eq can be lowered to what it should be instead of being uber because of some glitch/bug/builder cheats/old building guidelines/the oedit bug/etc, but I want to keep it.

Let me know if this is how it's being argued because that's the breakdown of how I see it.

One thing to point out about choice 2 though is that it doesn't get rid of things that players shouldn't have had because of bad building (quest/cheat/etc)/bugs/anything else.

Edit: Ok, was pointed out that pwipe doesn't BALANCE the economy just resets it.  So, I will put in this - hopefully the economy will be BALANCED by the coders/builders so if a pwipe happens the RESET means more.  *blah*  I hate politictions who need each word to be exactly right.  And I thought lawyers were bad.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:07:32 pm by Kvetch »

Offline Emory

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #138 on: November 18, 2009, 03:16:24 pm »
I'm not sure this applies to many of us....but what about those of us who got our houses as building rewards waaaay back when? This is how I earned my basic house...I would be unhappy to lose it. It was my motivating factor for building a zone. I haven't the time to play enough and would be unhappy to lose my entire collection of everything because I haven't the time to redo all that stuff. A part of why I went inactive was the last pwipe...I'm too old and have too much crap to deal with to game 24/7 to rebuild everything and I still haven't recovered from that last wipe.

I'd simply deal with another pwipe by continuing to camp recall in rp eq rather than playing because i feel at "home" in this mud....but I'd be pissed about losing my house. I was in the building for the promised house...I delivered the zone and was paid with a house (rather than the token reward). I don't think I'll start back playing though, until this is decided...I'm too lazy to waste any effort :P

On a side note, I'm silly and some of my perzes are nostalgic because of who I was with when I earned it or who gave me the item, etc. I have many "gifts" that I've held on to for this reason alone...most of my perzes aren't even good eq anymore, but I still don't want to lose them...it was hard creating "me." I understand that the mud is changing, etc. etc. and since I'm not active lately I feel I don't really have a right to an opinion, but I'm old, disgruntled, bitchy, and greedy, so I though I'd speak up anyway :)

Offline Emory

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #139 on: November 18, 2009, 03:32:46 pm »
SO you're saying you haven't been here since 2000? If not, you're one of the oldest? I beg to differ :)

Let's see, I think Sarias has been here since 2002/3.
Riley earlier than Sarias I believe, but not by much.
Siresee, I remember when she was a newb. And she came not too long after me.
Emory, see above.
Tynian 1998, about the same time as me, a tad later. We became DJ assassins together.
Jason not too much later than that I think.
Belgarion, about the same as me. though now he's all invis and stuff. I may be wrong, maybe  a tad later than me..or earlier. I dun
              remember.
Xeriuth= ??
Hayato = ??
Yvei = He's popped in and out of here since 1999! I know because he's my little brother and I got him into mudding.
Once dates back to me.
Turin dates back to be.
Kvetch = hrm, 2004 maybe, correct me if i'm wrong kvetchie.
I would need numbers from Asmoday, and Asmodeus, but I think 2001/2ish for them. I could be wrong.
Natalya = ??
Virisin dates back to what? = You say you've not been here since 2000, so WHEN did you come here?

So we're really looking at what...7+ years? Nice. Not much of an exaggeration so far as I can tell. I ball parked it, I didn't exaggerate.


your opinions are your own, even if they're very STRONG ones. but listen. You cannot just say something is worth nothing when CLEARLY it is worth SOMETHING to someone. You're willing to cut your losses pbase wise to get what you want? That is not what playing and investing time into 4D is about. People didn't create chars, and build histories here to get screwed in the end.

So instead of debating how long the majority has been here, and whether or not something actual means anything to anyone. Let's have an actual constructive debate rather than bashing one's words time and time again. Viri, I hate to say it but your constant replies to every single post on here is more counter productive than anything. It is your idea, now leave it up to others to get their words in. Namely the IMMs.

btw- why do we have 20+ votes, and only like 5 people actually POSTING?



I started here when I was 12. I'm 23 years old now (24 next year). Sooooo.. I go back to 1998 too.



I started somewhere around 1997...It was before I had my kidlet...I started playing when I was pregnant because I wanted to kill stuff IRL (hormones) and couldn't.

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #140 on: November 18, 2009, 05:17:28 pm »
This is exactly my point in this whole deal.

Even if my EQ sucks perz wise in the change over. They are still my perzes. I earned them. Emory is no different. In fact, I would like it if her and others like her who had been given houses by the old (and way better house reward system) way of doing things. She put in the effort to create amazing quests for us, and has many things to show for it.

So, what do we do about those people? I say don't even come close to touching them with a 10ft pole.

While many who fully support the pwipe are all focused on stats and power.. there are those of us who are a million years old, and there are things that we hold dear. It's not about the eq becoming obsolete. It's about the memories behind those pieces, those houses, those mounts, and so on.
-------------------------

Here is a suggestion for gold economy. Make all of the friggin shops actual shops. You can't hardly sell a thing anywhere, yet we have tons and tons of useless eq that just gets junked. Let players gather all of their junk pieces and run from armor shops to potion shops, trying to sell their finds. Create a barter subskill or whatever so that there is an occasional increase of profit when selling to shopkeepers.
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #141 on: November 18, 2009, 05:25:43 pm »
Inconsistency is not a good thing in a mud though I don't think, and for instance: builders no longer get a house for building a zone - they get 1 gold token.

Would it be okay if you were allowed to have your perzes back as free RP eq after a pwipe Toch?

Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.

Offline Kvetch

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #142 on: November 18, 2009, 05:33:55 pm »
On that note, Toch, to keep the economy balanced, the builders (screams and runs for cover as she finishes this statement) would have to go though each and every item and make their costs relavent to the new economy.

*peers out from her hiding spot*

What I mean is this...

Dagger: 2d10, +3 Damroll, +2Con
Worth: 500,000
(are you kidding me?)

So, I find said worthless (in a fight) dagger and sell it - what would be a good sell on a 500,000gold weapon?  10%?  That's 5,000 gold that we're putting into the economy for selling a worthless dagger.  Ok, I admit that I'm calling it worthless because everyone knows you can max all stats easily (at least that's what everyone tells me) so the con is worthless.  The damroll may be better than con, but seriously, who's going to keep ahold of a 2d10 weapon just because of +3 damage?  And that was just the first dagger I looked at.  I can only imagine what others are.

Having said that, I am all for selling stuff at the shops, but I also thinks that shops should have a set amount of money.  Depending on the village/town that the shop is in, they may have only 10,000 gold to spend on buying items - at least until someone  buys something from them - so if you sell two of the aforementioned daggers to the shop, you've busted the bank until the shop sells something to someone else - a potion or whatnot.

I serioulsy don't know what Anubis has in mind for money sinks to help keep the economy from ballooning out of control - I really hope he has a plan otherwise we'll be right back into this same mess in 6 months to a year.  I've often asked for the weapon/armor damage/repair to be put back in - as one of the ways to get some gold spent in the game.  After all, damage to weapons and armor while they're being used, is more "real" than everything always being at 100%.

Speaking of.. *Kvetch goes running after a random thought*

Offline Emory

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #143 on: November 18, 2009, 06:28:29 pm »
Inconsistency is not a good thing in a mud though I don't think, and for instance: builders no longer get a house for building a zone - they get 1 gold token.

Would it be okay if you were allowed to have your perzes back as free RP eq after a pwipe Toch?

Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.


But why should I lose a reward that I, in good faith, earned? What the current reward is should have no effect on previously completed agreements...I understand this is just a game, but that's like retroactively deciding an agreed payment was "too much" and going back and confiscating it.

Offline Kvetch

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #144 on: November 18, 2009, 06:39:30 pm »
Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.

That would only be worthwhile if the "another far away shop" is farther from the source of the thing you bought than where you bought it.  Ok.. that was confusing.  Let me liken this to a game I play.  Actually, they are lots of games, but it's all based around the same thing: Eurorails, North American Rails, Nikkon Rails, etc, etc (even Lunar Rails - don't ask, I'm not tellin').  The whole game is based upon picking up one item from one location and then dropping it off at another location that wants the item.  Depending on where the location is depends on how much they're willing to spend for it because of how close/far they are from another city that carries the item.  For exampe (Let's use North American Rails - only because I live in the US and may actually know where a few of the cities I'm going to spout off are located):  Let's say that Boise, Idaho wants Oranges.  You can get oranges in either California or florida.  Now, Boise doesn't care which oranges they get, they just want oranges.  So, since California is closer to Idaho than Florida is, they'll only pay based on what it's worth to get it from California - just because YOU picked up the oranges in Florida doesn't mean they're going to pay more for them.

This is fun.  You all are finding out what sort of person I am by the games I play when I'm not playing 4D.  Strange, isn't it? 

It would be interesting if something like this could be worked into the game, but as in the rail game - once you built your rails, what is there to stop you from making money without spending it?  (In 4D terms - once you find out the best location for selling an item - even if you buy an item in one shop and transfer it to another - what's to stop you from basically "grinding/botting" until you're back to having basically unlimited gold?)

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #145 on: November 18, 2009, 06:42:24 pm »
I agree totally, which is why I think a pwipe that affects everyone in the exact same way is the only fair way of doing things - as long as everyone looks at the benefit to the mud objectively. If we start trying to confiscate houses from people that earned their houses through lumberjacking, and not actually building an awesome zone like the parts of Egypt you made, Emory, that are now integral to 4d.. We're walking down a slippery slope.

I do see where you're coming from though, and the people that got houses from building are some of the only people that I could actually potentially see being allowed to keep their houses afterwards..

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #146 on: November 18, 2009, 07:05:55 pm »
Any buying/selling between shops is pretty hard to balance, you're right Kvetch. Any profits would have to be minimal if at all. Not sure it'd be possible to code any of that stuff you talked about in, without giving every room in 4d a coded co-ordinate like Outer Space though..

Offline Britnoth

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #147 on: November 18, 2009, 07:29:53 pm »
Alright, I expect this to be an extremely long post, so I will try to break it up into short paragraphs ;)

Okay, first issue, playerwipe or no playerwipe? Full or partial?

Quote
"I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong." - Natalya

I agree with the pwipe. I also agree that it is very unfair to everyone, but the issue that many people seem to forget is:

If we do not have a pwipe now, we will have one when the mud dies.

Why?

Quote
"but from talking to the coders it's obviously a bunch of hacked together stuff that looks like a cat threw up - not a pretty picture.  The way to really get things working right is to start from scratch - coding wise first.  Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse." - Kvetch

It is unfair - because everyone has wasted their time already, on a mud that wasnt upto scratch gameplay wise.

Do not take a pwipe out of context. It cannot be just a reset to fix old grandfathered items, token inflation or whatever.

It *must* be the end result of totally replacing the hack + slash elements in the game. Grouping, classes, races, char builds, skills, spells, physical stats, all need to be looked at and rethought.

If (and I mean if, I dont hold my breath here) this is done, then we have to have a pwipe. Imagine you play snakes and ladders for 10 years, and then move to playing risk, would you keep your old scores and playing pieces from playing snakes and ladders? No, of course not.

To make the pwipe valid, the game really has to change to be good enough to match the quality of the zones and the playerbase 4D has.




Alright, we have a pwipe if we get stuff fixed. But what is 'fixed' exactly?

Quote
"Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse." - Kvetch

This is why I do not favour the 'skill trees' being proposed. To me, it is exactly 'patching' over the cracks in the game rather than fixing the core elements of the game. We will still have the irritating features that make no sense and limit gameplay.

It also makes little sense in reality.

Ah, bringing up reality in a fantasy time travel mud involving magic where you cannot technically die? Yeah I know, but if something doesn't make sense to you, it's often a good warning that what you want to do is likely to confuse players and limit the game experience.

Prime examples: Charisma increases spell damage and gives you more hitpoints when you level. Damroll is the only important bonus for melee types.

How does being pretty or showing empathy give you a more powerful magic missile or help you absorb more physical damage before you die? Its confusing, and counterproductiove to have one stat *both* improve your spells and make you gain more HP. Same with damroll - its the only bonus that really matters once you have anything like decent equip. What even is damroll again? Wouldn't like, strength govern how hard I hit instead? Intelligence or widsom affect spellpower more? Dexterity affect my ability to avoid attacks rather than armour?

Who knows what mord was smoking.  :P




So, we get a skill 'tree', where you are limited in the total number of skill choices you can have.

Well we already have normal skills and spells do we not? Are all skills and spells going to be like that or just a certain number of them? The big danger here is that we have a large variation in the usefulness of these skilltree options, making everyone pick the same things... and then there is:

Quote
"Option 2: Option 1 + 'skill rank' introduced as a stat available on some equipment. A weapon might have say, backstab +5 which would directly influence their backstabbing multiplier and maybe turn a 2k backstab into a 3k backstab." - Virisin

Okay... IF skill trees were implemented, then this is how they must be done. We need variation in equipment, to get that we need real choices that are genuinely different for different characters. Skill trees would be designed to bring variation and balance to characters to encourage grouping and interdependency.

To bring this to equpiment too, we would undoubtedly need to have items giving some kind of bonus to these choices, such as +5 backstab skill on an item.

But this causes a big issue - you're basicly saying that all the good items in the mud will need to be looked at and such skill bonuses like that to be distributed among them. So, to do the job right imms are going to have a significant amount of work editing equipment already in the game...




Now back to my earlier point - how is it reasonable to limit a character to only learning *some* skills, and then not learning anything ever again? It seems counterintuitive to anyone coming at it from a fresh viewpoint. While at the same time, if we keep how player stats curretly work, everyone will have maximum strength, dexterity, constituion, wisdom, intelligence, and spellcasters with good charisma. The stats being easy to max.

Characters will only learn a lmited number of skills or spells or whatever, but they will all be super strong, intelligent, agile, etc. etc?

Where is the logic here? My view is that it makes more sense to reverse this - to allow players to slowly learn new skills and spells, but to have a maximum limit on the total level of *physical* type stats the character has.

IE: if you have high str, dex, con etc, and you are a tough melee type, you do not have good int, wisdom, or other spellcasting related stats and so your spells will be awful. BUT you can still learn them, even if your ability is greatly reduced.

Similarly a character built to be good spellcasting will be bad in melee, but they could still choose to learn those skills if they wished to. It is just weak from having poor strength, dex or whichever.




How could you do this? simple: look to remove the hard caps on stats. Make stats the important determining factor in combat, remove hitroll and damroll and speed, so only 1 stat is used in determining success, failure, damage etc instead of several.

You then are fixing what currently lets the mud down, and simplifying the game for new players, not adding another layer of complexity onto an already barely functioning game system.

Of course, removing hr, dr, speed boni etc means editing a ton of good items to make them valuable again, right? But... if skill trees were done correctly some item editing is going to have to happen at some point anyway, to make it worthwhile - so isn't it better to take the harder path and make the game simpler as we go?




Doing it this way also has a major bonus, at least to me: With characters defined by their physical strengths, classes become redundant. You can even get rid of classes if you want to and allow people to train up their stats (with a total stat cap to prevent people being good at everything).

This lets you tailor your character to how you want it, choose the eq you want to improve the strengths your character has, *and* allows you to divide your stats between *types* of character, in effect giving you the option of playing a *true multiclass* character. That was the original intention of the tier system in 4d before it was then destroyed with grand masters.

This is how my favourite mud did things: Personally I've never came across another mud which came close to the flexibility and freedom it provided players, and the variation in equipment it had. I don't think it wouldd be a bad idea to emulate at least parts of it.
"I don't like having rules that cannot be enforced, that just makes people lose respect for all rules." - Molly

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2009, 08:00:25 pm »
Thanks for taking the time to actually write an in depth response Britnoth, one of the best in the thread.

Quote
It *must* be the end result of totally replacing the hack + slash elements in the game. Grouping, classes, races, char builds, skills, spells, physical stats, all need to be looked at and rethought.

I agree, and a PWipe would definitely only be truly considered after full playtesting of a new system and if it was agreed the new system was worth it. I also do hope the new system does address all of those points. It's what I'm aiming for.

Quote
Prime examples: Charisma increases spell damage and gives you more hitpoints when you level. Damroll is the only important bonus for melee types.

I agree, charisma was a half-assed attempt at making it a worthwhile stat whilst also trying to differentiate casters from meleers. I guess it was an attempt to hit two birds with one stone, which seems to have not ended up working out very well.

Quote
Quote
"Option 2: Option 1 + 'skill rank' introduced as a stat available on some equipment. A weapon might have say, backstab +5 which would directly influence their backstabbing multiplier and maybe turn a 2k backstab into a 3k backstab." - Virisin

Okay... IF skill trees were implemented, then this is how they must be done. We need variation in equipment, to get that we need real choices that are genuinely different for different characters. Skill trees would be designed to bring variation and balance to characters to encourage grouping and interdependency.

Glad someone finally responded to this, I agree with option 2, glad I'm not the only one.

On to your suggestions:

Quote
Now back to my earlier point - how is it reasonable to limit a character to only learning *some* skills, and then not learning anything ever again? It seems counterintuitive to anyone coming at it from a fresh viewpoint. While at the same time, if we keep how player stats curretly work, everyone will have maximum strength, dexterity, constituion, wisdom, intelligence, and spellcasters with good charisma. The stats being easy to max.

As you said, I really don't think realism is a mud's most important goal, however on this point.. How is it reasonable for a character to learn EVERY skill or spell? In real life, someone good at boxing might also be strong and fast and good at a few other boxing related skills, but they're probably not going to be amazing bards.. I see nothing unrealistic about this, and think skill trees are a fairly realistic adaptation of real life to be honest.

I do agree the stats are too easy to max though and I don't think it should be a given that players can simply max all of their stats. I think this will be looked at.

Quote
Characters will only learn a lmited number of skills or spells or whatever, but they will all be super strong, intelligent, agile, etc. etc?

Where is the logic here? My view is that it makes more sense to reverse this - to allow players to slowly learn new skills and spells, but to have a maximum limit on the total level of *physical* type stats the character has.

IE: if you have high str, dex, con etc, and you are a tough melee type, you do not have good int, wisdom, or other spellcasting related stats and so your spells will be awful. BUT you can still learn them, even if your ability is greatly reduced.

Similarly a character built to be good spellcasting will be bad in melee, but they could still choose to learn those skills if they wished to. It is just weak from having poor strength, dex or whichever.

I think we could have both, rather than one or the other. As I said above, I think skill trees are a realistic way of looking at things and I've always thought skill trees were awesome anyway even if they arn't realistic. :P I do agree though that taking player stats into account when we talk about character builds would be a good thing though. I've always hated how easy it is to max player stats, and I would support some kind of stat point cap on players, without actually having any cap on the stats themselves - so long as the stats are balanced in their benefits. That is extremely important.

Quote
How could you do this? simple: look to remove the hard caps on stats. Make stats the important determining factor in combat, remove hitroll and damroll and speed, so only 1 stat is used in determining success, failure, damage etc instead of several.

You then are fixing what currently lets the mud down, and simplifying the game for new players, not adding another layer of complexity onto an already barely functioning game system.
Removing the hard cap on stats is a good idea, but as I said I think a cap on player point stats is a good thing as well, otherwise we'll end up with equipment inflation again and players will just end up with higher stats than before. Some kind of cap on player stats is necessary in order to promote different builds - just like with skill trees and the cap on practice sessions.

Quote
Of course, removing hr, dr, speed boni etc means editing a ton of good items to make them valuable again, right? But... if skill trees were done correctly some item editing is going to have to happen at some point anyway, to make it worthwhile - so isn't it better to take the harder path and make the game simpler as we go?

Let's hope the builders are willing.

Offline Asmodeus

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2009, 02:08:14 am »
I was just thinking about something and thought I should post it to get opinions on it.  So as i've stated, i'm all for the complete and total pwipe.  However, I started to get thinking about our amazing builders here, and how they get certain awards for building zones.  But now with a pwipe, they're losing any award/reward they got for putting actual hard work into making the game better (not just leveling and such).  Now, THERE is something they can't get back by just mindless killing and non-mindless questing, considering if they did every quest, they couldn't get those particular things back.  I'm sort of leaning towards allowing builders keep what they earned with their months of hard work to make the game better for us players, especially since its not like their zones are getting wiped... just a thought.  Unless of course you think a good reward is keeping their imm after the wipe?

Again, just posting random ideas... thoughts?