Poll

Would You Support A PWipe?

Yes
16 (48.5%)
No
12 (36.4%)
Depends
5 (15.2%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Player Wipe (PWipe)  (Read 121216 times)

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Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2009, 04:16:53 am »
I think the Player-builders should keep their rewards. If it weren't for them, especially Emory, we wouldn't have about 80% of the amazing zones that we do. If you take away what they earned, it's a huge slap in the face.
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2009, 05:24:46 am »
I know Egypt is an awesome zone, but I don't think Emory accounts for 80% of the amazing zones in 4d. :P

Also, I think Emory's case was an unusual one rather than the norm. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think builders always used to get houses as a reward for building a zone. I'm pretty on the fence though on this one. Token rewards for houses is something there are actual rules in force around so it's pretty consistent and I personally wouldn't mind builders being reimbursed the 1 gold token or whatever. Not sure about Emory's case.

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #152 on: November 22, 2009, 06:05:43 am »
House rewards for zones was always the norm in old code. It was how they promoted mud growth. Actually, it was the only reason I even started building to be honest. Right after the switch they took that rule away. Now it's 1 gold/100 rooms.
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #153 on: November 22, 2009, 06:09:25 am »
Really? I heard the Emory situation was a deal and wasn't at all the norm in the situation. Maybe my memory is just foggy but I don't remember the change with the new code at all. Ah the joys of old age. :P

Offline Molly

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #154 on: November 22, 2009, 12:13:00 pm »
I know Egypt is an awesome zone, but I don't think Emory accounts for 80% of the amazing zones in 4d. :P

*ahem*
Two of the Egypt zones are actually mine, Ancient Egypt and The Valley of the King. :)
Emory made the Nile, The Egyptian Desert and The Temple of Hatshepsut.

Offline Emory

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #155 on: November 22, 2009, 12:45:21 pm »
Really? I heard the Emory situation was a deal and wasn't at all the norm in the situation. Maybe my memory is just foggy but I don't remember the change with the new code at all. Ah the joys of old age. :P

No, I finished my zone just in time to qualify under the house for a zone rule. I did get an imm for the other sections of the zone....but that imm doesn't really have any powers and can't do anything...so it's just like a high lvl chatty person...I also didn't really ASK for it...I wanted the house...which was actually built into one of my zones (because it was known that I was building for that specific reward, I was allowed to build it at the same time). If I could see any way my house would affect y'all's "economy" I'd shut up...but pretty much all I've ever used the house for is to hold my junk collections....I like collecting "things" but none of them are ever rare, important, worth anything, etc. or to hold RP events (I've done a few out at my house).

I've never claimed to have built all of Egypt...and I'm aware that Molly's part is better than mine :) I did enjoy building and just had slacked off to go back to school. Having finished that, I'd like to get back into the game in some manner or another.

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #156 on: November 22, 2009, 03:02:58 pm »
I know you built VoTK/Town, Molly. lol.

Welp, if that's the case then Emory I wouldn't mind if you kept your house. It'd be up to Molly whether builders should keep their houses.

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2009, 12:46:22 am »
You know. I still don't totally buy into this "letting players who already own houses, perzes, and mounts keep all of the above plus all/percentage of their tokens" could cause problems in the new code. I've really been thinking on this whole problem and so far and here are my opinions on the matter:

1) If the value of tokens drops, and things become cheaper, all quests rewards will need to drop as well. Why? Because of our knowledge of the mud. Because of this, we can easily go through all low level quests and buy back our perzes, and mounts with ease.
    Because of this, it won't really change anything unless we cut back the token rewards of quests, and also remove the ability to token farm of which a few are very capable of.
2) If they have their home/furniture it will mean that they'll have more tokens available for perzes, and house expansions and/or mounts later. I personally do not see how that would be a bad thing.
3) If some peoples perzes are going to have stats dumb down anyway, they should keep them. You're not only penalizing them for their efforts, but now you're removing all stat relevance...so they might as well keep them.

Finally. I have played many many many-a-mrpg and not once have I ever witnessed any pwipe-like actions without compensation. Pay-to-plays included. Why? Because they WANT to keep their players. What I'm seeing here in this board is zero real consideration for the players. You're more focused on FUTURE players, but not on the players that actually keep 4D alive. When we had the last pwipe, even with the grandfathering of things, we still lost a LOT of people. GOOD people. People we'll never see again. Why? Because  we went from a very basic system that was perfectly fine in it's simplicity and imposed a suddenly new system on everyone and caused everyone to (even with their eq) work from the ground up again in an even more tedious grind system. back them we were comfortable with simplicity. We moved from sweet and simple to simple and half-assed with no real direction.

4D is free to play. 4D is also fortunate (and I don't use that word lightly) to have any semblance of playerbase. We're asking the loyal pbase to start over from complete scratch based upon the theories of token value inflation and so forth, and power imbalances. None of these matter if we DON'T lose our loyal pbase that is already highly experienced in the mud. Why? Because they know how to manipulate it. Nothing will change unless you change the mud on the quest level as well.

My suggestion would be this:

If the test port is exactly like game port then I would say you should copy any and all pfiles to that port so that we may be able to test it at our fullest ability (eq, house, mount, rpreward, token, gold). I want us to see how much of an ACTUAL imbalance we will see. After copying everyone's pfile over to test port, do the wipe of levels, and have everyone who participates reroll stats and so forth.

I would rather see us actually TEST FOR than ASSUME the existence of a potentially Armageddon-like  imbalance like many of you claim.

Finally: The new system is supposed to encourage the making of alts. The skill tree system is basically limitless is combo's, and because of this players are going to want to make alts to try out each class and so on. So, why wipe current players accounts at all? They'll level through like they like, and make alts for the other classes. In fact, players will all be so busy trying to find class combo's they like anyhow that to be honest...that whole deal will balance the mud out because players will reroll so many times trying to figure out where they want to be. Most players will know what they like bt the 20's, and/or 30's. If not, they'll reroll and try it again. They wont really go anywhere for a long time. Myself included. This being the case, then everyone having everything when they start off in the new system wont really change anything. They'll be TOO busy trying to get it right, and get comfortable in a proper class.

Remember that even though we are free to play, we are going to run the risk of losing a large chunk of our players by removing their rights the the things they've earned. The new system will instill new interest in the game for sure, but only if they have something aside from friends that still ties them to this place. Removing their houses, mounts, and eq will sever forever their personalized ties to a place they have a long history with.

-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline Virisin

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2009, 12:57:10 am »
The new system is not meant to encourage making alts.. We're moving away from being forced to try out every single class so we can stick with the one we want. The rest of your post is just the same stuff you've said for like 10 pages now so I can't be bothered replying and you probably won't read or listen to what I say anyway.

Offline Asmodeus

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2009, 01:12:11 am »
...The rest of your post is just the same stuff you've said for like 10 pages now so I can't be bothered replying...
Says Virisin in reply to Toch  :o

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #160 on: November 23, 2009, 01:29:55 am »
The new system is not meant to encourage making alts.. We're moving away from being forced to try out every single class so we can stick with the one we want.

Um, what are you talking about? That's exactly what skill trees does!!! Now, come back to reality and let's start talking like proper adults who understand the true implications behind large scale changes.

Why does it seem like I am one of the only ones in touch with reality here?

Also, my recent post was intended more for the IMMs rather than the players on this. You're not an IMM. I want a reply from Molly, Diandra, Kvetch, SHORTY, and so on. Speaking of Shorty? Any chance we can get the big guy in on this discussion? This is HIS mud for christ sakes.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:33:02 am by Tocharaeh »
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!

Offline horus

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #161 on: November 23, 2009, 02:14:51 am »
Tochy, just because you dont see how things affect the economy, doesnt make it true that there wont be any effects. Ptesting inflation is impossible, it happens over time, and usually, if you manage inflation well, then everyone is all happy. When I was a youngster, icy poles cost 10c and icecream costed 15c and I considered that a luxury! Now they cost over $1 but guess what? It doesnt feel painful to spend that money to buy it.

Now lets look at 4d. 500k for stoneskin that lasts only a few ticks? Thats painful, even when you can afford it. Alot of things were gained during periods of bugs, bad designs, etc whereby there are not alot of outlets where the gains could be spent. Now, I will try to plug all the holes and ensure that everything makes sense and there will be outlets where you need to spend gold, or tokens or TPs. You cannot create an inflation-free mud if you inherit all the items that caused inflation in the first place. How can you not see that? How can we lower prices of everything, if you already have everything and now, you can earn more tokens, and gold etc and things are so much cheaper?

So the main point is, this cannot be ptested. Only gameplay can be ptested.

Offline Molly

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #162 on: November 23, 2009, 05:45:47 pm »
So Tochy wants a response from an Imm, and in particular from Shorty, since 'This is HIS mud '.
But is it really?  Sure, Shorty is one of the Founders, and without him and Kalten there wouldn't even be a 4D. But, let's face it, he kind of lost interest years back and even if he still logs on sometimes to socialize a bit, he hasn't been active for a very long time. And if he hasn't even realised by now that this discussion is going on, he is not likely to have an opinion.
 
So who IS the owner? Normally the one that has the server or pays the bills for it is considered the owner, so in that case that would be me. Another way of looking at it would be that the Coders own the mud, because they have unlimited access to everything. But to me everyone who puts down significant and consistent work on the Mud - builders and coders alike -  is a co-owner, so in that case we have several owners.

Anyhow, here is my own response: (All this has probably all been said before, so regard it as a summing up).

1. The pwipe and the equip wipe are two different things.
We need the pwipe for the new combat system to work, and to revive the Mud, where currently most older players just idle at Recall.
Hopefully the new combat system and the skill trees can bring some new interest and challenges for everyone, old and new players alike. But for it to work, everybody needs to start from scratch. There really is no way to keep your level and still have a go at the new system, it's too different.

The change will have to be playtested before we even think of putting it in the gameport, so for quite a while we're going to run paralell ports.

We need the equip wipe to get rid of inflation, and a number of overpowered 'illegal' objects that are still in the game, but hard to track down, because those that have them guard their secrets.
The pwipe seems to be pretty accepted by most players by now, but some players cling to their belongings, for various reasons; power, status, lazyness, or sheer nostalgia.

2. The equip and house wipe needs to be all or nothing.
Letting some players keep their tokens, houses and perzes would only creates imbalance and resentment, since we'd have to draw the line somewhere, and everyone below that line will suffer the most and feel that they were treated injustly.
It also won't work against inflation. We want things like houses and perzes and heals to be cheaper, so that those things won't be out of reach for the newer players, who are the ones needing them the most.
We tried a half ass compromise the only other time we had to do a major overhaul, the so called 'grandfather clause' that Toch mentioned. I sometimes think that many of the oldbies stopped playing, or started idling at Recall because of the grandfather clause rather than in spite of it, since it gave them such a big head start that they didn't need to make an effort. And most of the players that left had lost interest in the game even before. I also think that the grandfather clause is at the root of our present inflation, because instead of dealing with the problems back then, we just made them bigger.

3. If we do an equipwipe, we also need to wipe all questflags.
Otherwise people won't have the chance to get their stuff back, because nowadays all quests are set up so that you only get the big token reward once.

4. Even with an equipwipe, the older players will have big advantages.
Sure, the older players usually have a lot more to lose than the newer ones.
But in return it will be easier for them to level, because they know their way around the world, where to find useful things and where to fight at different levels.
It will also be easier for them to redo the quests, because a quest is really just hard the first time. Even if you forgot what you did, it will be easier to figure out again. It's like cycling. Once you learnt the technique it never goes away.
Knowledge is the one thing we cannot take away.

So the older players, who choose to actually continue playing, will race right to the top again.
The active players, (meaning the ones that are currently active) will also have big advantages, even if they are lower level, since they will be up to par with the newest zones and the latest changes in the older ones - and the zones will be the same.
I don't see this as a bad thing. It's natural that people should have some advantages for playing the Mud for such a long time.

5. With an equipwipe we'll be able to lower prices on just about everything.
The prices are insane right now, due to inflation, both token and gold are affected.
As an example, a house used to cost 1 gold token. Now even the cheapest house costs 5 gold.
Newbies, who are the ones that really need potions, cannot afford them, while the older players, who use spells instead, just ackumulate gold.

All economies suffer inflation over time, but in some cases it goes out of hand.
In our case, the inflation was caused by mainly 4 things; an unstable code, some crash bugs, buggy quest scripts and badly designed features. I'll have to take a lot of the responsibility for the last two ones myself, since when we started 4D over 10 years back, I was very inexperienced. I went from never even having played a Mud to being Head Builder in less than a year, and as a result I did many mistakes - we all did.
Some bugs were a bit funny, like the Sicilian's 'secret weapon', others, like players deliberately crashing the mud to duplicate things or to abuse features like farming, gardening and lumberjacking, were just plain irritating. Over some periods there was also extensive blabbing about quests, which lead to players having items that they never would have been able to get on their own.

Now we have patched most of the glitches, fixed the bad scripts and removed the features that enabled people to pharm unlimited tokens. New bugs will appear, they always do with new code and new zones, but we know a lot more about how to avoid them nowadays.

6. Nothing will be removed, just put on hold.
We wouldn't delete any player houses, they would still be connected to the world, although they wouldn't be crashproof and everyone would be able to enter them, until you pay the fee for them again. (When it comes to bragging value, that would rather be enhanced than the opposite, when everyone can view your mansion).
Same thing with perzes, the items would still be there, waiting to be rebought, unless of course you'd prefer making new ones.

***
In summary; all things considered, I've gone from being totally against an equipment wipe to being in favour of it. I understand how traumatic it would be for some players, but it would solve so many problems in one strike. And we'd never get a better chance of doing it, than in connection with a major code change.

This is a once-in-a-lifetime chance.
We are also lucky enough to have a coder, who has both the ability, the time and the will to put down all the effort needed for a major change.
Let's not waste that opportunity!

Offline kitolani

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #163 on: November 23, 2009, 07:52:55 pm »
Let's just do this. Have you seen how many times this thread has been read? Pretty awesome.

Offline Tocharaeh

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Re: Player Wipe (PWipe)
« Reply #164 on: November 24, 2009, 03:35:45 am »
See? Now THAT is a post Molly.

And with that, you have my official "Yay" on this matter.
-Tocharaeh D'Araesth
The Dirty Ol'' Drow that time left behind in fear of obliteration!