Alignment

[Virisin]

Alignment sucks currently, I just had a thought that maybe it could be made more similar to Fable etc.

Rather than mobs changing alignment, quests do. So right from the get-go you can try head towards being evil or being good or just being neutral, and if people are always wanting different sets of equip, I think alignment would be one of the better ways to allow that because if you were only doing the 'good' quests in the first place you wouldn't have to worry about getting a reward and not being able to wear it.

There are some issues with this though, in that it could mean that players only get to experience half the quests in the game, which is a pretty big issue, so I think it'd work better if quests all had dual paths, good or bad, however that's a shitload of work for the builders so I'm not entirely sure..

Just wondering what other people think of the idea and if they can come up with some actually feasible solutions.

[Virisin]

I was about to say screw it, I hate alignment all together let's ditch it when I remembered it's used in some quests. People should use it in quests more it's kinda cool for quests.

[Virisin]

Oooo, remember those 'world events' we're talking about in whatever other topic it is? We could try and make them double sided, help the invaders or repel the invaders. It could give alignment rather than mobs.

[Kvetch]

As a builder I want to scream no at this, but as someone who really doesn't like the way alignment is used/gained in muds (not just ours) I want to commend the idea.  Though, not every quest would have to have a "good way" and a "bad way" because like most of my mobs, quite a few quests are just neutral (go get the apple for the boy).  Though, after writing that, I was thinking that it would be a good thing to do - though what would the bad thing of this be?  Not getting the apple?  but that's not a decision, that's sheer laziness.  *shrug*  The only other thing I could think of is making it so a majority of the mobs are neutral and only those that are obviously good or evil (make sense alignment a bit worthwhile?) should sway alignment one way or another.   If you kill an angel - it's a bad thing.  If you kill a devil - it's a good thing.  If you kill Luke Skywalker - bah, who cares, he was just some guy livin' out in the desert with a droid anyway.

As for making world events double sided - you think that's going to increase the number we have?

Kvetch

[Virisin]

We don't have to have many world quests.. Sure as many as possible would be ideal, one for every city or something but two or three per dimension is good enough, and they can just all be added to the code or however it works so that every tick there is a certain chance a random one will start up by itself. If you could help invaders or repel invaders it'd be cool anyway, but if you got alignment for it and alignment meant more it could be a good way of getting alignment.

[Tocharaeh]

I say give us static alignments so I can always be Chaotic Evil damnit!

[Virisin]

That would be possible if the only way to gain or lose align was during world events

[Molly]

I am not particularly fond of the alignment system, but the fact is, it has been there from the start, and as a consequenece it is used as a variable in many of our quests.

Regardless of how logic it is or isn't, it's one of the few variables we can use to send different players on different paths in a quest.
And the reason we do that is to at least in some small way counteract the Quest blabbing. Blabbing == when one stupid players tells some other stupid player in detail how to do a quest, so that their buddy or clannie or whatever can get the reward without doing anything to really earn it.

Other such variables that can be used in Quest scripts are Race, Class, Clan, stats like Int, Wis, Cha, Coolness etc. and to some extent Level and Tier too.  Basically the Quest Mob would send a Centaur on a different path than a Martian, and might refuse totally to even talk to an evil aligned or low intelligence player.

So what everyone - and particularly coders - should bear in mind is, that if you mess with those basic elements, you also mess up an unspecified number of quests, which might be very hard to track down and fix.

That said, align should be at least resonably logic. It makes sense to me that if you specialize in fighting evil creatures, your align goes up, if you go around senselessly killing innocent women and children it goes down, and if you stick to hunting animals nothing big happens..

[Britnoth]

That said, align should be at least resonably logic. It makes sense to me that if you specialize in fighting evil creatures, your align goes up, if you go around senselessly killing innocent women and children it goes down, and if you stick to hunting animals nothing big happens..

Not very logical at all. Killing 'evil' people does not make you good, it just makes you a murderer too. At the best it should not change your alignment at all.

To paraphrase an old games take on alignment:

It is very easy to prove to everyone you're evil, it is very hard to convince them you are good. Being good align comes from *not* doing evil acts over time. Certain selfless acts (like doing quests to help people) should raise your alignment to lawful/good, but killing a few innocents should immedately drop it back down to evil/chaotic again. It should be a challenge to maintain a good alighment by not killing good aligned mobs, and very easy to descend into evil by just being selfish and killing what you want for your own personal gain.

So, a simple alignment system:

People start at fully 'good'.
Killing neutral or evil mobs doesnt affect alignment.
Killing good mobs drops alignment fast.
Quests can raise alignment.
Alignment slowly raises by itself, but veeeeery slowwwwwly.

[Molly]

Unfortunately all muds are based on mass murder, so what you suggest isn't really feasible, when it comes to gameplay.

It would basically mean that if you want to stay good you'd have to sit at recall all the time, in which case you'd never gain any levels. Sure, many people hate the so called grind, and many players do little but squat at Recall, but that is mostly after they went through the grind.

I'd rather settle for the existing kill-good or kill-evil system, which may not be totally logical, but at least is persistant and easy to understand.

[Xeriuth]

I like static alignments most. Even though alignment can affect outcomes of quests, you can just make it choices? Such an example I had for a zone, say Atlantis. You could play the quests out to either lead to the destruction of Atlantis, or save Atlantis from destruction. All based on choices you make. You'd naturally make the good choices if you are good aligned. Could however incorporate your static align. Make it so if you choose to be evil you have to take the evil path. Because otherwise you just magically all of a sudden turn good just to do the quest the other way? Flags would of course prevent this anways so dosn't matter. I just think with quest-trees persay it makes it more versatile and fits. 
Now maybe have an ideal static alignment but if you are good align and you kill lots of good align mobs you fall out of focus and perhaps are fatigued more, shrug. just some thoughts.

[Tocharaeh]

Having alignments change based upon who your are killing is just so silly. I can kill nothing but evil people, but still be evil....because I like killing people.

I want to be evil all of the time. It really doesn't work in rp if you have detect alignment, and see me all goody-two-shoes but I'm rping a dirty old' drow bent on the destruction of all in his way. It just doesn't work.

I wanna be evil

[Asmodeus]

maybe instead of alignment being base on killing, and having equipment being able to be worn or not worn based on alignment, have alignment based on equipment?

no idea if that idea has merit, but im just thinking that in the new system, there ideally wont be just one set of good equipment that everyone has, but lots of various equipment that could put you at the top of your skill, and maybe depending on what it is could determine your alignment?  (who it belonged to: if it belonged to an angel, increases your alignment, if it belonged to a demon, decreases your alignment... if you had to earn it through a quest for the greater good, maybe has a good alignment, and vice versa)

... yes? no?

[Xeriuth]

One thing that would probably be best for another thread though. Actually I'll make a new thread..

[Britnoth]

Unfortunately all muds are based on mass murder, so what you suggest isn't really feasible, when it comes to gameplay.

It would basically mean that if you want to stay good you'd have to sit at recall all the time, in which case you'd never gain any levels. Sure, many people hate the so called grind, and many players do little but squat at Recall, but that is mostly after they went through the grind.

I'd rather settle for the existing kill-good or kill-evil system, which may not be totally logical, but at least is persistant and easy to understand.

I made the suggestion with the current game in mind. I'm unhappy (but not surprised) you dont even consider it properly and just reject it. 

Most mobs here are not wildly good or evil, so you naturally head towards neutral with the current system.

There are lots of areas to xp in, so you can choose to avoid killing good aligned mobs in most situations.

If you want a specific item from a good aligned mob, you have a choice - either take the alignment hit from murdering a good person, or trade for it for someone who has less moral standards than yourself.

I think this would be a relatively simple change that could add a great deal of interesting dynamics to equipment (if you remove the ability we have now to just make align restricted eq wearable by anyone), quests and so on. Being good or evil could then give different benefits.

Right now alignment is just an irritant whenever it actually matters, but if you want to keep it that way then thats what you want.