Author Topic: Making it easier for new players how to advance  (Read 16334 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
Making it easier for new players how to advance
« on: August 28, 2011, 04:38:01 am »
Apparently there is a stage, (somewhere between when new players leave MudSchool, and when they get fully self-sufficient after a couple of remorts), where totally new players find it too hard, or too slow, to advance. Many of them give up at that stage, especially if there is no helper available at the time to answer questions.

Already established players, who start a new alt, don't seem to have the same problem, since they all seem to advance pretty quickly. I'm not sure whether that is because it's easier for them to find a friend to powerlevel them, or because they already know where to go to find the best levelling zones and equipment,

Anyhow, since quite a few newbies give up on the way, and we really need the playerbase to grow, we've been discussing ways to help them along, preferably so that they can do it on their own.
Once already came up with the following suggestions:
'Heals and knowing where the right mobs are are a pretty consistent problem for newbies.  I think one step is to give them heals every couple of levels (along with hints about their clan HQ).  I know they get money, but I don't think that's enough and I don't think the path of getting heals is clear to them.  I also think we should look at giving them a couple "maps".  One at level 5 another at level 10, and another at level 25 which have directions to the best regarded leveling zones.
We may cut out a little bit of the early exploration by pointing out the good zones but I think we'll make the entire process a lot easier for them this way.'


I'm not against giving out maps or directions to some zones and equipment myself, it's actually a step better than just giving them the stuff and powerlevelling them, because they'd have to do some little effort themselves. Cuddling them too much initially tends to make them lazy and less inclined to venture out on their own.

Still I'd like to get some more input from our active players:
- Which zones are generally considered to be best for levelling at different stages?
- Which non-restricted armor/weapons would be best to lead them to? (Ideally they should be able to get it on their own, so it shouldn't require a hard kill).
And above all:
- Are there other factors that could make the game more fun and rewarding for low-medium level players?

Any good suggestions would likely lead to fast implementation, since this thing has high priority.
You can respond either directly on this thread, or via mudmail, note or e-mail (molly.4d@tele2.se).


Offline Jaros

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 07:13:45 pm »
there's already a sign at the end of Venture Ave with zones for under lvl30.

beyond that there is:
convent
osten ard/northern realms
odessin
little italy
quixotica
probably stone age 2 and dry gulch 2
maybe tombstone or hole in the wall - i've never levelled there but it's an interesting journey anyway.
necromunda - there's some solid equipment there as well
parts of alpha centauri (lovenbroy and slunch probably)
maybe poon ocean

a lot of those have aggro mobs and such but they might as well get used to it.  adds a sense of adventure too.  beyond the obvious newbie/tier 1 levelling it all gets a bit hazy i feel, and dependent on personal preferences.

to be honest i think the main problem is that our skills/spells/fight code is so shit.  once you realize such a massive part of the game is typing 'k mob', kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick... you get the idea.  i don't have a solution for that yet, just pointing it out.

Offline Tor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 11:18:07 am »
Once and I have spoken about this a couple of times and I agree pretty much with what Molly posted from her conversation with him.

I don't think heals aren't really needed when quaffing a potion with three cure critics is capable of restoring more hit points than you have, the healing potions in the Seeker hall should suffice. Along with a guide that leads them through the use of the healer, setting wimpy, and that heals are available through exploring, (these may already be in place, it's been a long time since I went through the school.)

Guides leading different classes, (rogue, caster, fighter), down paths that provide experience and equipment better suited to them, although I think the school is a wonderful introduction to the mud. But if they are given gear above some level, and all the same, won't they be molded into another person's idea of the ideal for a first tier of that class?

It seems that some of the newbies don't want to complete the great school that is provided, and I've heard at least one complain of the olive branch rewarded for having gathered the vouchers being useless. Some better way, (more rewards, or choice of rewards), of getting them to stay in school might increase the retention of players.

They sometimes leave if they post a question and are not answered in a very short time. Early on, there needs to be a sign that everyone may be busy when they enter or ask a question, to wait a few minutes for a reply. Some way for those not sitting in recall to know when a newbie has entered the mud, would help in having them greeted. That way they at least know someone is actually here.

Some of the changes that have been made both before and after I joined the mud seem to have made it more difficult for new players. It is harder to get gold to buy potions and pay for practice sessions, perhaps give the newbies more gold for leveling up to some level? It is now possible to power level them again, removing the grinding from the end of school to first remort if they choose. The down side of this is that it sometimes leads to one having remorted, perhaps several times, without really gaining any personal knowledge of the mud. It seems that once they begin following someone they don't even need to watch the screen to gain experience points.

Jaros lists some good zones for leveling, although I'm not familiar with all of them. If we are going to send them to an area with aggro mobs, it should be with ones that will at least give them a chance to flee. Having 400 hit points and getting jumped by a mod that hits you for a 1000 with its back stab or encircle could be discouraging for some.

Offline Jaros

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 06:45:43 pm »
They can be powerlevelled?  I got the impression that you get exp in proportion to the damage you deal..

If they can this is not a bad thing.  Trips Downunder with the older players were always awesome.  Builds community etc.

Not to be negative but we shouldn't get our hopes up that mummying newbies more is going to solve this.  At most it will have a minor impact.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 06:51:56 pm by Jaros »

Loria

  • Guest
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 06:59:38 pm »
I think the hardest part about being a newbie was getting to know my way around. Knowing where to look for equipment was something I always needed help with. Getting power leveled helped me feel confident as a player but it stunted my growth in the previously mentioned areas.

I like the idea about Recall getting a notice that a newbie has signed on. That would help a lot, I think. I am loving Tor and Jaros' ideas a lot. I would think all these ideas would help encourage newbies to stay.

Just my $0.02.

Offline Diandra

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 143
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 01:28:35 am »
Actually it has been suggested before (Kvetch - Vyncent):

Quote
A toggle to let mortals see when someone logs on or off (So they know when their friends log on instead of having to type who all the time).

Maybe it can be restricted to only show the new players who have logged in. I woudln't restrict it only to Recall though, there are actually people (granted they are few) that don't squat in Recall al the time and that can greet new players.  ;)


Offline Prometheus

  • the bang your head against the wall coder.
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 365
    • View Profile
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 09:44:45 am »
To Jaros -> That was rolled back to the old method of split of xp along group members.

And maybe the voucher scripts can be changed to include something useful to the class of the newbie at the time. For example voucher 5 would give the normal reward but without the branch depending on the class entered. Not sure how hard that would be to script since I don't script. But it does make sense to change the Olive branch to some else.

As for heals like Tor said there are enough healing potions. What we might do is to put a healing mob someplace that checks your level and if you ask gives you a free heal sort of like a restore, of course this will depend on remorts as well. Not sure if DG can check for remorts as well. If not then maybe Molzilla or Fizban can add it to DG?

There are plans for a newbie login toggle (For newbie helpers). So maybe if that gets in we can look at a friend toggle that lets you know when I friend logs in. Only issue with this I can see is it can be abused with triggers to pester someone. So this might need more discussion.

Prometheus
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 09:47:08 am by Prometheus »

Offline Diandra

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 143
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 11:52:23 am »
So skip the friend login toggle and focus on the newbie login thing. *egrin*

Edit: Concerning the healthing: for the non-remorts maybe Tra'niche at the Healer's Haven in the Seekers' Guild can be the solution, still would need a remort-check. If you'd also like something similar for remorted players you'll have to think of another place.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:04:34 pm by Diandra »

Offline Tor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 12:54:11 pm »
I was talking about a toggle that would allow players not squatting in recall to see when a newbie had logged in. I thought it was already echoed to recall when someone logged in to the mud... and the one's that come to mind about pestering someone with triggers may be sitting in there already, or spamming who. But that, along with being licked by a strange man, upon arriving at recall, seems to have become a part of our culture. :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:00:30 pm by Tor »

Offline Virisin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 05:32:21 pm »
Jaros makes a very good point in that once you realize how fighting works, ie spamming your one good skill/spell it gets really boring. Both Tor and Jaros make good suggestions, something I would add:

Newbies are kind of forgotten by our strange fighting system, learning the differences between rogues, casters and fighters is not all that clear or easy to understand. We've made it easier for newbies already by only needing to specify Rogue/Fighter/Caster initially before specializing into a class a bit later on, but we don't really teach them at all what they should be doing to optimize their class. An important thing for casters to learn is that the best orb they will be able to manifest is actually on a really easy, close to recall mob: the magical fishhook from the archipelago. As for rogues and fighters, there are plenty of different things they could get, but they need to know damroll is the one stat that will have them noticing a major difference when fighting. Going from 5 -> 25 damroll will be a bit of a mission for a newbie but if they want to see themselves get stronger, levelling up extremely slowly with bad EQ only to remort back to level 1 again will be quite disheartening, if they spend time getting to at least 20 damroll before they make their first remort, they will find being level 1 again a heck of a lot easier.

Offline Molly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 01:36:05 am »
We've made it easier for newbies already by only needing to specify Rogue/Fighter/Caster initially before specializing into a class a bit later on, but we don't really teach them at all what they should be doing to optimize their class. An important thing for casters to learn is that the best orb they will be able to manifest is actually on a really easy, close to recall mob: the magical fishhook from the archipelago. As for rogues and fighters, there are plenty of different things they could get, but they need to know damroll is the one stat that will have them noticing a major difference when fighting.

Now this is the kind of information I meant. ;D
Provided of course that damroll will be the "only useful" stat in the future as well...  :P

Now, to be a bit more practical;
1. Could you provide a list of relatively easy-to-get damroll items, preferably from several different, reasonably safe zones, which would get them out exploring a bit? (No aggros, if possible).
2. Plus some suggestions for a resonably easy to get decent weapon?
3. And where do you suggest we put this info? In Mudschool? The board in Seekers? A new Quest they will be sent out on, to get the info?

Offline Virisin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 03:08:13 am »
As far as relatively easy to get damroll items go, I'm probably not the best authority anymore. But as for what I can remember, the 'easy' questcards were always far and away the best for damroll. I imagine it's similar still now.

Weapon, again I'm not entirely sure. I havn't been a newbie in a while, someone else would have a better idea. Robin Hood's Dagger is probably one of the better options for thieves.

Mud school + the seekers board are probably the better places for this information.

Another thing I think is a big issue is the current HINT system for newbies, which I think is a script based system on the Seeker feather. It's currently extremely spammy and more off-putting than anything. Luckily the most common hint is "TO TURN OFF HINTS USE NOHINT" but which also kind of defeats the purpose of them. I think the hints should be more actually hintworthy, and not just annoying. Kind of like the quest academy hints are actually helpful.

If the hint system was revamped, I would recommend:

All players with the Seeker feather getting hints on a less regular basis.
Refining the set of default hints that players get, to be only the most helpful hints and not just spam.
Adding hints that depend on the player specifically, eg. caster hints, rogue hints, fighter hints.
Specific hints should be thrown in amongst default hints.

Specific hints might be something along the lines of:

As a fighter, you should work on getting good at skills to use during combat. Kick might be a good bet!
As a caster, you will do a lot better if you focus your energy with an orb. Try searching the Greek Archipelago for a good weapon to manifest.
As a caster, you should work on mastering one or two good spells to use during combat, rather than trying to learn everything.

etc. someone else should think of some more.

Another thing newbies get really jipped on is movement and mana. Movement and mana is vital to pretty much all of 4d, exploration and combat, and the vast majority of the current playerbase never has to worry about movement or mana, because after a remort or two they have a decent amount. Newbies though, have to sit down and stop exploring every so often (annoyingly regularly) and if they're not in a good resting spot it can really hamper the fun of exploring when it takes 4 hours to regain your 25 move points, and not all newbies are confident enough to recall, rest up, and then make it back to wherever they were before they were forced to sit. And then during fights, any normal player can just spam the hell out of kick or chill touch depending on whether they're a fighter or a caster, whereas a newbie can manage maybe a few kicks or a few spells per fight, meaning it drags out a lot.

Stamina is a much better idea for a stat, because it affects everyone the same amount, and in a realistic way. If I'm exploring, I will never run out of stamina. But if I go try speedwalking halfway across the world I'll run out of breath. If I kick a few times here and there throughout a fight, I will be fine. But if I spam kick constantly I will run out of breath (or should!). Stamina seems to be pretty much what movement should be, but for some reason we have both.

This is pretty much what defines one's progress in the mud: once you have enough movement points, you can spam the skills that require X amount of movement points and run around as much as you like. Once you have enough mana points, you can spam the spells that require X amount of mana.

Combat is then based on spamming skills or spells during the fight because you have the movement or mana to be able to, when it should be based more on how fast you are doing things to discourage spamming, and push combat in a more interesting direction.

Offline Diandra

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 143
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2011, 04:54:19 am »
I think the info in Mudschool is already extensive as it is. Also not everyone actually completes the school the first time they create a character.

The seekers board already holds some information so maybe some more things can be added there.

Like Virisin said, a revamp of the hintchannel might also be a good idea. But maybe that can be done in a seperate thread. Posting the current hints (seems the original thread got lost somewhere) and then see what can be removed, changed, added, etc.

One thing I haven't seen brought up is the location of where to buy certain potions once a player remorts, especially those that stay clanless for a while. So maybe this can be added somewhere too. Some locations are: the wizard shop in Old Yorke, the potion shop in the future space port somewhere and if I'm not mistaken aren't there some potions sold in Sanctuary Haze too. And not to forget the healers themselves. And while the location is being added also add directions on where to find a bank and how to withdraw money.  ;)

Offline Jaros

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 04:40:25 am »
Also, if you're going killing:

Max your STR with potions.
Always have BLESS at least, which is available in the clanhall and boosts hitroll and move-regen.
Do carry heals but DROP them while you fight along with any other excess weight as it seriously reduces speed.

Offline Tor

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Making it easier for new players how to advance
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 01:31:58 pm »
Jaros,
You forgot about picking up your stuff before moving on. It can be hard to find if you forget and go wandering about. :D

I'm not sure if I remember right, but isn't there a decent weapon hidden in the area limited to newbies N.E. of Olde Yorke, and red nail polish buys one in the central area. They need to know that they need to have room in their inventory for a few things when dealing with mobs.