Cybernetics

[Jaros]

Also if we get rid of attributes players can all start from the same point and invest in attributes later in the form of cybernetics upgrades.  That way they only specialize as they get a better idea of how they like to play.

[Kvetch]

Can you explain about the getting rid of attributes part... are you saying no-one would have any str, int, cha, etc stat to start with or that they'd all start the same, like say at 9 and then through cybernetics they get to upgrade them?

I kind of like the idea of letting players choose their own wear locations (everyone gets x number and you choose what you want).  Though that may be a problem as builder(s) try to figure out what's needed in various locations.

As for the cybernetics thing, you are saying that not only are you trying to figure out how to adjust yours, but the mob is as well?  So, you may figure out that the mob has their fire augment working and adjust accordingly, but the mob may adjust theirs as well so that information is no longer viable and you have to re-adjust?

[Jaros]

Sorry when I say attributes I mean the unique attributes of each race.  Like Dwarves get -10% melee damage, +10 attack and +40 defence.  Spacewolves get +15% melee damage, -20% magic damage and -10 attack.  They're all pretty much arbitrary and achieve nothing except telling someone how to play and which race is best, whether they like it or not.

Normal stats like strength, intelligence, constitution, etc would stay as they are.

The wear_loc swapping is a cool idea and would be good for correcting imbalances between classes but issues like what the fuck is an elf with horns and a second pair of legs still need to be worked out.

Probably introducing a coded way of just changing race (like a laboratory in the Future space-port say) would be a good pathway to wear_loc swapping later on.

As for the augments, yes pretty much, but:

1) I think adding it solely to PK to begin with would be a good way of introducing it.
2) It could be added only to certain mobs that are meant to be more difficult to kill.
3) It could be that even the mobs it is added to just have one augment set in stone that they do not change that.  So you work out what that is and adjust, and then you're fine for the rest of the fight to use your skills/spells as normal.

[Jaros]

Although there's no reason we shouldn't also be able to alter our base stats (str, int, wis, dex..) in-game as well, IE take 2pnts off your strength to add to your con.  That could be another option in our shiny new lab 

[Molly]

There are several things about the cybernetics idea that I like:

A. We honour the 4D history by keeping the old races, (which even have graphics on the website).
B. A Cybernetics lab is very consistent with our Timetravel theme.
C. New players get a minimum of simple choices, which makes it easy to get started. they don't need to make important decisions before knowing the game.
D. When you have learnt the ropes a bit and decided about what playstyle you like, the options are available for you.
E. Calling the addition cybernetics automatically gives an explanation to things like 'what the fuck is an elf with horns and a second pair of legs?'

There are probably other advantages too, but these are what came to mind first.

[Xeriuth]

I like the idea of cybernetics and augments, the idea definitely has merit and definitely would need some extensive testing. I really like the race lab idea. To be able to create your own race is phenomenal. I just wonder how that can work with quests. When a quest talks to you by your race, will it just say your base race before the cybernetics? Will this change how your race appears in who? finger command? or will it just simply be a way of altering the way your current race looks and you call it whatever you want? Also some body slots read different per original race, like worn on hooves, and worn feet, etc, will those be changeable? If all of this stuff is editable within the race lab, I'm very much in favor for it, even limited it still has merit.

[Jaros]

Prices could be set up so that the cheapest path to the setup you want is to change to the closest race to it and then swap a wear_loc or two.  That would make defining them a lot easier.  Otherwise any cybo-altered folk could just be referred to in the game as borgs or something.

[Molly]

I think the best way would be to refer to them as Cyborg in the WHO list, but keep the original race code somewhere in the bottom, for the quest scripts to refer to.

With an old mud as big as 4D, one should always be cautious about changes that leads to extensive OLC work as a consequence, because there is usually not anyone willing to take on that task - Including me, (I've had my fill of extensive changes brought on by new code in my time).

Coding is relatively quick compared to building, try to remember that before getting too creative.
And that goes for all coding ideas - not just cyborgs...

[Once]

I think the first item that Cybernetics/biolab should be able to affect would be the Loyalty Bonuses we all got back after the first pwipe.

Not a lot of current day players even have these available and some of the old players who did get the loyalty bonuses have expressed interest in getting a different one. This would allow us to get the biolab function itself working and playtestable within the next few days, while also not unbalancing the game since plenty of people already have loyalty bonuses. 

Loyalty bonuses in their current form have already more than outlived their purpose. Everyone that was going to quit over the pwipe quit ages ago, and currently it just adds another disparity between oldbies and newer players.

[Virisin]

Is the loyalty bonus the +25% damage, +25% speed, +25 attack, +25 defense thing we chose at the start? If so, I think they might already be gone, but I could easily be wrong.

[Xeriuth]

how would the new cyborg race, and new races affect all of the !race equipment out there?  I think if it were possible to rename the way your race is on finger, who, score, etc, for cosmetic rp purposes it'd be good, but not sure about gameplay because honestly if someone wants max damroll, but the item is unusable by fauns, like the boxing trunks, but they like having horns, they go faun, change to cyborg and can now where the trunks. Maybe there are ways around this loophole?

Also yes loyalty bonuses do exist..  BonusSpeed                    [100%]
They fall under subskills currently.
Certainly a good way to start off is with loyalty bonuses. Levels the playing field between oldbies with the bonus and newbies without for certain, as long as the cost is reasonable and all parties can afford it of course.

I think a good high end upgrade for cybernetics could be something that increases a select max stat point. Because each of them would have their perks the cost to change it could be adverse, like a lot of gold or maybe decrease the stat you increased base stat by one, if you choose to allocate it elsewhere.  The stat can be raised by a max of three, perhaps by upgrade surgeries, have to get +1 stat first to get +2 and the chance of success of +2 working is a lot less than +1, and finally +3 which could get your max stat to 25, of course permitting you have equipment to fill that void.  This could make people focus on dex, to increase their speed and attack, or int to increase magic damage, charisma, to increase magic damage/hp gains as caster, con for hp gains for everyone, etc. will add diversity, and each of course have their set benefits. I pick 25 because that is currently the max stat in the code, (what imms have). So it should very well be doable. Any thoughts?

[Calypso]

If the player kept the race as part of his makeup like Molly was suggesting, the all the race-specific items/gear/ect would be applied to *that* race. The player has the chance to pay and switch races if s/he wants to.  I know nothing about the loyalty bonus so I can't comment on that.

Also, instead of changing their race on the who board, why not just add another category, like PK|RP|CB (or some such letters) to indicate Cyborg? that way it shows that the person is essentially an elf with all the race restrictions/bonuses that elves might get, but has been genetically altered to have different body parts.

[Xeriuth]

The CB as an extra flag would work, still though, if you can pick and choose wear locations... People might be lopping off their ears for other slots just so they can get more damroll, and get rid of slots that just doesnt have good equipment for that class/race combo. Now if it's you can only pick and choose from the extra slots. Hips, Scruff, Tail, Antenna, Horn, Back legs, Back hooves, and ankles. It could still be taken advantage of, just not to the degree of getting rid of other standard eq slots on players. I am much in favor of class attributes however. Being able to pick whether you get +melee percent damage or negative in another to get positive in one. I just think if you change this, the cost to change it again, should increase, to discourage changing often. So people dont just change because it's cheap each time they change from melee to caster, and vice versa.