Ramblings on a Future without GM, with Action Points and Skill Trees

[Jaros]

Priests are the only worthy casters because they have heal and can do pretty much equivalent damage to the others, if not more.  Heal is huge, casters are rubbish without it because of the low HP.

Espers have magic bubble, which is useless for a class that relies on magic damage, and no heal, much like mage.

Earthquake is pretty much an experience fountain and I think priests are the only class that get it so they're also the easiest to remort.

No one goes warrior because it's essentially the same as hunter but lacks utility skills and if I'm not mistaken brace only works while not typing anything or some other similarly crippling compromise.

Gypsy is useful against casters thanks to magic bubble but very average against mobs or anyone else because they can't spam anything.  Also woodsing is rubbish and tinker doesn't compete with spam-skills.

Thief is strong and ranger is now all but identical. both are played in exactly the same way, which is also pretty much the same as fighter but with less HP, less base damage and similar spam-skill damage.

[Once]

Ah, so nothing on my end. Roughly when did these changes come in? Do you feel like it was better balanced before? If I have an idea of the date I can actually look at the subversion logs and see how the formulas have changed over time.

This is pretty helpful information overall.

[Virisin]

Uncapping stats would be a good thing.

[Jason Orsini]

liked that part where each class actually HAVE UNIQUE skills..
but if you make one class defensive, and one offensive.
it in turn will unfold as one of those being the better one don't you think?
this goes for fighters/casters/rogues. in a perfect world each class would have its
unique purpose that no other class could do.. should make each class tier 3 and 4 skills
totally uniqie to each class....woohoo

[Jaros]

Roughly when did these changes come in? Do you feel like it was better balanced before?

No idea.  Partly from the beginning, partly at any point over the past 8 or so years.  It's never been balanced.

but if you make one class defensive, and one offensive.
it in turn will unfold as one of those being the better one don't you think?

Yes.  That's why the challenge has always been in testing/balancing, even if all you do is shift some skills around.

[Virisin]

I think one of the first things you could do would be removing GM and implementing the remember 8 remorts system, and getting that balanced so it meant no one was weaker than they were now if they had a solid 8 remorts behind them.

[Jaros]

What would that accomplish? We have three classes worth playing now; 8remorts would narrow that even further to priest+hunter/thief.  Heal is ridiculously useful so everyone would have it, but then why stay as priest and not just carry on into hunter and have twice the HP and behead?  Players would be uber so mob strength would have to be adjusted.  End result: gameplay is even more one-dimensional.  I think it would be a total waste of time unless the effort was actually put into balancing classes along with it, which I originally thought was a given but clearly isn't.

[Once]

I don't think anyone would just implement 8 remorts only and nothing else. That would of course be ludicrous. What you're running into is a volunteer team that either has:

A) Time Limits
B) Interest Limits
C) Skill Limits

Which sometimes prevents things from being brought in exactly how you'd like and at the speed and manner with which you'd like. A and C are pretty hard to overcome, but I think if you reach out to programmers, make it clear you value their contributions, and try to get them involved (without just telling them all the stuff they won't ever do) you might find more work happening here.

I'm definitely in the A category and occasionally in the B category. Everyone on these boards has the opportunity to help make this place better. Your collective value is in using your player experiences to help us understand what's going to be most relevant to the base, and then using your characters on our test ports to help test things as they come in and rejigger the balance. If the rate or style of progress isn't to your liking perhaps you should ask yourself what you can do to help with it. Chances are there's plenty of things.

[Virisin]

Basically this is what always happens, there's a lot of talk, a few of the most minor changes of a big idea come in, end up making things worse and then nothing else happens for a while. Rince, repeat.

[Jaros]

Yeah, I think it's worth accepting that this isn't going to happen so we can all save our breaths.  Nothing personal about it, it's just too big of a task. 

[Once]

Basically this is what always happens, there's a lot of talk, a few of the most minor changes of a big idea come in, end up making things worse and then nothing else happens for a while. Rince, repeat.

Fair point.

[Once]

Yeah, I think it's worth accepting that this isn't going to happen so we can all save our breaths.  Nothing personal about it, it's just too big of a task. 

Quit being emo.

[Jaros]

http://4dimensions.org/forum/index.php/topic,724.msg5141.html#msg5141

[Kvetch]

I think the chances of things being implemented now are greater than they ever have been in the past.  Why?  Because we have more than one coder that's actively looking at making changes.  Each is working on their own special thing, but all of what they are working on is made to improve 4D.  Some of it may seem like it's trivial (do we NEED a special client for our mud? No, but think of the attention it will draw.  I love the fact we've got someone (Kavir no less) working on one), some of the things they do may seem like the time could be spent on something else - something better - but I'm not a coder and I'm not going to tell them that B comes after A and then have the mud break because in coding C always comes first - before either B or A...  The idea is to use this tread to get the ideas out, tell them what's not working and why, if you can. 

Also realize it takes time - kind of like driving a place that's a half hour away - even if I drive directly back without doing anything it's going to take me an hour minimum, don't call me after 20 minutes wondering why I'm not home... *blinks innocently*  In other words - we want the mud to be great, and we want them to take the time to make it great, so let's stop asking them "when are you going to be home" when they've barely started the drive.

Also, if you continue saying things like "It's never going to get done" and you say it enough times, why would they even bother trying?  Call someone "stupid" long enough and they'll actually start to believe you, even if they are a genius and know better.  It may not have gotten done in the past, but we've got some awesome coders right now that we have to believe in.  I'm willing to believe that they can get anything done if they put their minds to it and if we believe in them.  Call it the tinkerbell theory.  Do you believe in fairies?  I do... *claps hands and stomps feet*  But I believe in our coders even more.  *gives a round of cheering to go with clapping hands and stomping feet*

[Virisin]

There was only ever one coder who could make the changes.