4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Mordecai on May 06, 2008, 05:32:12 am
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This is just a preliminary brain dump of this idea.
A few changes I think would work for clans:
Adding physical entrance, so that it is possible to walk in to a clan.
Removing all commodities from a clan.
Enabling a clan points system (these are similar to tokens for players, to buy commodities with).
Allowing clans to influence certain mobs and shops to join their faction or cause.
Having a morale system, that encourages more NPC clan members to join the clan.
Enabling an inter-clan war system.
Currently clans get certain commodities:
- Healer
- Recall Item
- Crest
- Board
- Potion Shop (Healing potion, remove curse wand, strength potion)
- Utility Shop (Container, food, drink)
- Alignment room good
- Alignment room evil
- Clan House
- Clan Prison
- Clan Meeting Room
- Fountain
- Uniform / Rp Eq
- Exit to a distant zone
- NPC Clan members
I suggest these as additional commodities, which all need code support, and will explain why after:
- Remove recall item, and add a coded recall room in each clan.
- Clan Entry Guards
- Clan Gate
- Trophy Room
- Weapon Racks
- Armor Shelving
- Remove Alignment room that does not fit with clans alignment.
- Shop to sell goods collected by the clan members
Shops + Factions
A code change to shops so that keep track of how much they sell.
For a percentage of this amount, and if the shop is sympathetic with the clan alignment, the shop can have its loyalties bought by a clan.
This purchase is for one month at a time, and at the end of that month can't be bribed by any clan for a random period of up to one week.
A percent of all purchases made at the shop while it has been 'bribed' or 'influenced' or 'seduced' at this time go towards the clan funds.
The shop while bribed will not sell items to any clan that is of opposite align (or possibly just when at war) to its current clan.
The shop mob adds to the population of the clan.
Mobs + Factions
A mob flag to allow certain Feature* mobs to join a clan faction.
This mob adds to the clan population, and if the clan is at war, will attack the opposing clan on sight.
Clan points
Points can be earned when maintaining Clan Morale, Returning a profit on shops, Recruiting members, recruiting NPC's, Token Donations, Inter-clan events / competitions / wars, Collecting trophies.
Points are used for adding new commodities to your clan.
Clan Morale
Clan NPC's will be influenced by clan loyalty, wearing clan items, clan donations, membership size, and percentage of members on in a week, bringing back and mounting trophies.
As clan morale gets higher, more NPC clan members will move in to the clan area and will actively defend it, and will pay tax/donations towards the upkeep.
Higher clan morale makes it easier to influence Feature Mobs and Shops to join your cause.
Trophy's
Certain items and Mobs can be flagged as trophys, and when found or recovered, can be taken to the clan and given to an NPC to mount in the Trophy room.
- Certain mob's scalps and heads
- Artifacts
- Items obtained at the end of a quest
- Awards like KOTM, Blue band of victory, and Horse racing
Entrance Guard
After opening the clan up so that it has an entrance you can walk in through from a zone, it will need some basic protection, such as a gate guard, or two, or three. For a small fee of course. The guards won't allow people past unless they have been killed first.
A Gate
Well, you don't have to pay for a gate and a lock, but it may help keep people who can't pick a door from getting past.
Weapon Rack
You always find good weapons you can't use on your travels, why not put them in the weapon rack, and if your clan is attacked, your NPC members will take them up to fight with.
Armor shelving
Same goes with the armor shelving, put the armor items you find on your travels in this shelving unit, and when attacked, your NPC's will wear it to defend your clan.
Cycle the clan's gains
Done on a set time cycle such as monthly at which time:
- Trophies, Armor, and Weapons are cleared.
- Rent is charged on the commodities.
- The Mob's as staff take their fees.
Things that 4d needs checked for balance before this will work:
- Levels of all aligned mobs in the game
- Check clan exits
- Check shop alignments
I need to bring up a few more points, such as how the point system works, recall points, and how clan wars happen.
But for now, I will leave it at that.
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I think you guys might be making too many changes at once.
Adding a physical entrance to a clan is cool. I've often wanted that in case I lost my recall item and had to walk back. And I've wanted it just to get my bearings where my clan hall is. The only physical entrance I've come across is for the Viking clan.
Maybe I'm not understanding, but ... "removing all commodities from a clan"?? Are you serious? I joined my clan for the leadership and was so thrilled to learn the hall had all those commodities. That was a bonus. The clan board is totally useful, as are all the clan hall things (shops, fountain, healer, prison, meeting room, etc). I love being able to go to my clan for a one-stop-shop and avoiding going through recall. I love my clan crest - not just for the stats, but for the symbolism of trust from my leader.
My clan hall has another type of "commodity" room that was not listed but is so useful. A lot of thought went into the reasoning of that room and we worked hard to pay for the expansions. And I wanted to put in another type of commodity room. My clan supported the decision but the imms changed and inflated the price and it wasn't highest on our priority list. I think the commodity rooms make clan halls unique to the particular needs of a clan. I would really hate to see those rooms go.
You suggest additional commodity things to replace the existing commodities. I'd agree on removing the clan recall item and replacing it with a coded recall room. People seem to change clans, even though most clan guidelines suggest that you are not suppose to change clans. And some people end up with backdoors into their old clans possibly using recall items. So that would be a step in the right direction for clan hall security to do away with recall items and make it coded. And recruiting clan NPC mobs might be good. Those guard mobs that the imms sell to protect the clan hall are pretty useless.
A clan point system is a good idea. Currently my clan has a system like that. Maybe your system is an expanded version? I think it should be up to the clans if they want to implement and support such a system, but imm help on this would be good.
Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but I really would hate to see clan commodities removed.
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Firstly, too many changes at once?
This is just an idea, to be fleshed out, it isn't going in tomorrow.
And as for removing commodities, it would be made so that you could remove them, rather than you just don't have them anymore.
The goal here is for clans to be a strategic base for it's members which if run well, can make a profit and prizes for the clan.
By making the commodities i listed above, able to be toggled on or off by a clan leader, the cost of the clan upkeep will increase or decrease accordingly.
And when I say, clan NPC's, they will need to be much more powerful then your existing ones for sure, if they are to help protect your clan from raids and such.
Iwku, thanks for responding to the post, I will hopefully be able to alleviate your concerns as this idea fills out.
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I like.
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Iwku, You must realize that Mord's ideas either go in immediately (sometimes without notice - or at least my notice... *coughs innocently*) or they take... a while... long while. I have learned that coder immediately seems to be greater than or equal to one or two years. ;) (And that's if they remember). Though, I can't complain, I make areas at about the same speed.
Kvetchy
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And some people end up with backdoors into their old clans possibly using recall items.
That's actually not possible. All clan recall items have scripted checks to only work for members of that particular clan. In fact making the real entrance is more or less to allow you enter other people's clan halls I'd assume.
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And some people end up with backdoors into their old clans possibly using recall items.
That's actually not possible. All clan recall items have scripted checks to only work for members of that particular clan. In fact making the real entrance is more or less to allow you enter other people's clan halls I'd assume.
Yeah, it is.
So in times of clan war, both clans would be open automatically.
In time of non clan war, clans could invite people in to use the clan shops.
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Yeah, it is.
Err, it is possible currently to clan hop and have entrance into several clans? Or was that referring to: "In fact making the real entrance is more or less to allow you enter other people's clan halls I'd assume. "?
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Or was that referring to: "In fact making the real entrance is more or less to allow you enter other people's clan halls I'd assume. "?
That one. :)
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There is something that I really think is needed for Clans, and that is a way for the members to get rid of an inactive or otherwise bad leader. As it is, imms have to step in and do it, and that always creates unnecessary drama and accusations of favoritism. Clans should be run 100% by morts, but as it is, that isn't possible.
At present the DJ is the only Clan that provides a possibility for the CCL to challenge the CL, and take over leadership if he wins the fight. But you still need an imm to do the actual demotion. And - as Nauzhror rightly pointed out - it isn't necessarily the strongest fighter that would make the best CL.
Leadership is more about social skills, being a 'group player', being able to inspire and motivate the members, your own personal enthusiasm, motivation and goals - and above all - being an active player. Ego-tripped players, who are mostly focused on their own goals, seldom make good Clanleaders. And inactive leaders are always detrimental to a Clan. Without an active leader a Clan dies very quickly. We have seen that happen too many times over the years, even to the most prestigious Clans. And we've also seen Clans being resurrected, as soon as someone took an interest in them and did some active recruiting.
Clans played a much larger role in 4D in the past, and it is a real pity that, with a few exceptions, they seem to have gone 'out of fashion' nowadays. Clans are good for many things; roleplay, group spirit and social interaction, but also for intrigues, rivalry and prestige, which brings some extra spice to the game.
So what could be done?
One suggestion would be to automatically demote the CL two ranks, if they haven't logged in to the Mud for a month, and at the same time automatically promote the second in command to top level. That would get rid of the ones that just fade out and disappear without providing for their Clan.
Of course there are some people who refuse to admit to themselves and others that they actually lost interest, and would log on once a month just to keep their status. So there also needs to be a way for the Clan members to get rid of an inactive, or otherwise unsuited leaders. This could be done by some sort of member vote, where one member could initiate the vote to get rid of the CL with a special command. After that, all the active Clan members get a week or a month to vote yes or no, with a reminder that prompts them each time they log in, until they cast their vote. (The ones that still refrain, or don't log on at all, lose their vote). Both the initiation and the voting should be anonymous, to avoid retaliation from the CL. If the majority votes yes, the CL is demoted 2 steps, and the highest in rank below is promoted to top rank instead. If the majority votes no, the CL stays in power, and the member who initiated the vote cannot activate it again for a month.
But I also have a suggestion that would sweeten the deal a bit for the retiring CL. Create a separate level for retired Clanleaders. It could be higher than the CL level, but once there, the retired CL would no longer have access to the Clan commands, like promote, demote, appfee etc. This would make it easier for a CL to retire on their own accord, when they feel that they no longer have the time and motivation to be an active leader. Keeping their status would make it easier Some Clans have several CLs, because the old ones were kept for mostly sentimental reasons. Sicilians for instance has five, of which only one is active, although Soulstar and Tocharaeh occasionally log in.
The CL should be able to promote himself to the 'Retired' Rank, but after that, he shouldn't be able to go back to being 'normal' CL on his own. The new CL should however be able to promote a retired CL back to power, if they decide that would be a good move. After all, the RL situation always plays a roll, and sometimes players do return after a long absence.
We could also put all the CLS that already left 4D at this 'retired' rank, to add to their and the Clan's status, (which would be have to be done by imm). Having a legendary player as retired CL would naturally be good PR for a Clan. However, you should only be allowed to be a retired CL of one Clan. Normally this won't be a problem, but with all the Clan-hopping going on, there are some players who have been CL of more than one Clan. In those cases they would have to choose which Clan they'd like to grace with their name.
I am not sure if this can be coded, but my guess is that both the member vote and the 'retired' rank should be possible codewise.
So what do you think?
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Sounds ok.
Only thing I see is that if, let's say, you have around 2-3 alts in the clan, then you might be able to sway the vote your way.
I suppose that can be solved by looking at the history of the character's account..what characters he/she once had, and once was in the account. Maybe by linking IP addresses too..for you can not add characters to your account if you don't want to.
Perhaps let the vote be somewhat automated..if the clan leader logs in < x number of hours per month or something...
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I like the idea of an timer on CL so if they go inactive they drop down to a level below CL. Or if we got off-line clan stuff implemented that might help the issues but I can see Molly's concern on if Immortals could clan demote / promote / expel off-line.
Prometheus.
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I don't like a votes system. It's abuseable in so many ways. And.. I just don't think it's a good idea.
I do however like the retired clanleader idea.
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What Virisin said.
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I like the voting idea, based on a percentage of active clan members. With weighting based on clan rank.
I think clans could be allowed to set these fields up like:
clan set feesdue (monthly, weekly, 2_monthly) /* Charge the clan fees automatically */
clan set inactiveafter <X number of months> /* define how long you consider someone can be away before they are inactive */
clan set expelcantpay <yes/no> /* kick people out who can't pay? */
clan set leadertime <X number of months> /* how long can someone be an unchallenged leader for, before allowing an election */
clan vote <1st choice member name> <2nd choice member name> /* single transferable vote system (STV) that doesn't let your votes go to waste */
clan set resetranks <yes/no> /* reset all the members ranks when you have a leadership change? */
So really, instead of being expelled, they just stop showing up on lists and being counted in any stats, or charged any fees.
If you can't pay your clan fees, get out! Or not.
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I am on the fence about the voting part - and yes, I know that I suggested it myself.
Viri is quite right that it could - and probably would - be abused, and he should know, seeing as how many clans he and his bro have infiltrated during the years. I'd like to think that players would be mature enough to not abuse everything that can be abused, but experience has taught me otherwise.
Still, I'd like Clans to be more active and self dependent. I'd like Clans to be able to deal with the situation after a 'Coup' in an an ICly way, by starting to plan a Counter Coup.
I'd like Clans to fend for themselves without having to run to the imms to remove a CL who just faded out and disappeared, (and then the imms having to listen to the bitching from said CL, when they return 6 months later and expect nothing to have changed while they were away). To me abandoning your Clan as a CL without appointing a successor is a deadly sin.
So how about we at least implement the removing of a CL after a certain time's inactivity now - and also the Retired rank, (which I think would help CLs who have really lost interest for the Clan to retire with grace)? We could implement those two changes now, and then discuss the rest a bit more.
I must say I like many of Mord's ideas, but they mean big changes, and we shouldn't rush into it without discussing all aspects a bit more.
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I actually like the voting idea the more I think about it for some reason. Currently, clans are dumb. And voting wouldn't fit in the current clan system. But the more I think about a new clan system - the one Mord proposes, the more I think voting would go well. A real clan upheavel.
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This clan change, if started now, probably wouldn't be in before October.
Considering the amount of building changes it would need.
And the amount of planning and testing it would definitely need.
However, a change like this would permanently add a whole 'nother level to the game, that would, without imm intervention, allow for players to do stuff in the game in an ongoing fashion that didn't just mean grinding mobs for exp.
I think the concept should be pushed through to completion.
And it starts by finishing this draft proposal of how it would all work, so that the creation of this idea can be delegated among the imms as needed.
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Delegate away. I'm up for trying anything - in between my building habit.
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A few changes I think would work for clans:
Adding physical entrance, so that it is possible to walk in to a clan. I like
Removing all commodities from a clan. Removing ?ALL? the commodities listed below? that's a bit rough
Enabling a clan points system (these are similar to tokens for players, to buy commodities with). Wonderful, my long awaited idea! Or will the commodities be removed and everyone gets the clan points to buy them back, so all clans start from scratch essentially?? And who will give points out? Imms? With clanleaders it'd be abuseable... I have some ideas on this area I'll address later.
Allowing clans to influence certain mobs and shops to join their faction or cause. I like this idea
Having a morale system, that encourages more NPC clan members to join the clan. I like this idea
Enabling an inter-clan war system. I like this idea
Currently clans get certain commodities:
- Healer
- Recall Item
- Crest
- Board
- Potion Shop (Healing potion, remove curse wand, strength potion)Heals should definitely better
- Utility Shop (Container, food, drink)
- Alignment room good
- Alignment room evil
- Clan House
- Clan Prison
- Clan Meeting Room
- Fountain
- Uniform / Rp Eq
- Exit to a distant zone
- NPC Clan members
I suggest these as additional commodities, which all need code support, and will explain why after:
- Remove recall item, and add a coded recall room in each clan. Is this really essential? But it works if needed for other code tidbits
- Clan Entry Guards Good idea, should come as a default guard that are upgradeable ..perhaps even buyable traps?
- Clan Gate Good idea, just something small and another addition
- Trophy Room
- Weapon Racks Will it be crashproof?
- Armor Shelving Will it be crashproof? These kind of seem currently just like a clans donation bin box. Essentially useless as you never know when a crash will occur but still handy for show
- Remove Alignment room that does not fit with clans alignment. I agree, in TR we only have a good align room. I can understand neutral clans having both, and evil clans having just an evil align room. Perhaps good aligned clans get absolve on a mob, evil gets evil eye and neutral gets simply mobs of both types? With this make some spells need good align to be cast... since lots of spells currently need you to be evil, and not much I can think of require just neutral of just good
- Shop to sell goods collected by the clan members I like this idea a lot, especially if the shop saves the items. Perhaps allowed the item be put in the shop at whatever price desired. Sales go to the clan treasury? And are shops available to the public?
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I. Inactivity is a big issue when it comes to clans. As a DJ you are expected to be an active player of 4D. Longing on daily would be greatly appreciated, but that is tough to maintain for everyone, but logging on at least once a week should be easily manageable. If you don't think you can be active enough for the clan, then please ask a council member or the clan leader to leave.
If you know ahead of time that you will not be on for a prolonged period of time, or something comes up notify the Clanleader or Council Member ASAP, post a message on the clan board, or just post a note to all DJ's. This will allow you to stay in the clan for a time. If you plan on returning but not for awhile, we would kindly ask that you leave the clan, but let it known that you will be coming back and you will have free passage back into the clan. If you do not do this, and have not logged on for more than a month, then you will be expelled from the clan.
If it is the Clanleader who has been inactive for a month without warning he/she will be expelled from the clan by an immortal and the Highest Honor Point member will take over as leader.
II. Honor Points: Honor Points are something that is very unique to the Dark-Jedi, no other clan presently has a ranking system quite like ours. Think of yourselves as a Dark-Jedi through and through and always seek to bring glory to the clan. No matter what you do, you can be beneficial to the clan. It doesn't matter what type of player you are or what you like to do you can succeed no matter what. Here is a list of something things that you can do to bring honor to the clan:
1. Doing RP sessions that show your loyalty to the Dark-Jedi.
a. Any RP session you do that you report to the immortals or place in the forums, let the Dark-Priest or Rank 9 of the clan know and you will receive some award points for doing so.
b. Also for simply registering as an RP, you will receive 100 honor points for free!
c. Again be sure to tell Rank 9.
2. Completing any Council run quests.
a. The Honor points given for these quests will be determined when a clan run quest is held.
3. Donating tokens or gold to the clan.
a. Every 10 million gold is worth 1 honor point
b. Every Bronze is worth 1 honor point
c. Any increment of higher values will count towards points, but nothing smaller than 10 million gold or one bronze.
d. When donating, be sure to give the gold and or tokens to whoever is the Overlord or Rank 10 of the clan.
4. Scouting for potential Jedi.
a. Just simple keep your eyes peeled for people that you have befriended and could be a potential Dark-Jedi.
b. Report your findings to Rank 9 of the clan. He/She will report your findings to the Clanleader, and if your scouting leads to a new member, you will be awarded honor.
5. Collecting scalps from people in other clans, if you're a PK.
a. This is the most rewarding category for all honor points.
b. If you scalp someone…
3 tiers below your tier- 1 honor points
2 tiers below your tier- 2 honor points
1 tier below your tier- 3 honor points
Your same tier- 4 honor points
1 tier above your tier- 6 honor points
2 tiers above your tier- 8 honor points
3 tiers above your tier- 10 honor points
c. You cannot scalp the same person more than once in a month, nor does anyone in the Seekers guild count.
d. Also simply registering as a PK entitles you to a free 200 Honor points!
e. You must tell the Dark-Priest or Rank 9 of the Council when you apply for PK to get your honor. You must also give him/her the scalps to be accounted for.
6. If anyone sees themselves to be experienced in the fields of espionage they can consult the council for more details.
a. Honor points will be discussed under such instances.
That was something I had wrote up for DJ's when I was helping them out during the DJ revival. Just a small light on how inactivity and clan points could be distributed. What do you think? feel free to use and elaborate.
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I'll elaborate a bit more on what and how I think clan points should work and ideas revolving around that whole concept.
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I never knew that you were the one that made "The Way of the DJ" point system Xeriuth. It's really good.
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It's silly.
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Just a few things, because some other people have already said things I agree with, no point in me repeating, and as usual I'm doing many things at once...
Regarding CL inactivity, when I took over CL of vamps, I implemented the only thing I think we can currently "do" to try ensure we dont have clans without CLs. There's no set way to manage this without IMM involvement really, but the problems mainly seem to happen when CLs come back from being inactive and chucking a fit.
In Vampires, in a nutshell version, I have layed down set rules and procedures a CL should follow. If a CL becomes inactive for x amount of time, they are to be replaced, and demoted. It's effectively a contract. By taking the position of CL, you accept that if not active for longer than 4 weeks, you will be removed from CL, and the CCL, next highest member, or member voted for CL by other members (OR selected as the "next CL") will come into play.
In vampires, I have already expressed who I'd like to be CL, should I become inactive. First and second choice even. Everyone is aware of the rules.
I have also laid out "application systems" for anyone who wishes to apply for being CL, whether the current one is active or not. Many different variables come into this, and a lot of detail which I won't go into here.
Running a clan is more than just sitting around, occasionally recruiting. I think a lot of clans would run smoother if they had some procedures and policies in place. That way, if it is set in stone, and imms do end up having to follow the instructions left BY the CL in the first place, they cant get in trouble, and the "inactive" CL just needs to accept it.
Cant play, dont step up to the job.
Any of my members are welcome to apply for the CL position from me, should they desire.
And if I am not sufficiently active, I will be replaced.
Lay some rules down for your clan, people.
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RE Honor system, I remember speaking to you about that like a year ago, when I was trying to think of how to do it myself.
I'll be doing something similar myself, I hope, with vampires. It's just the HOW to do it which needs to be defined.
It is a good idea though, because I like to "push" my members to new heights. But I'd like to be able to reward my members for what they do too, and new challenges they fulfill..
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Baby steps...
We're getting clans set in the mud now so there are obvious entrance/exits with look descriptions. These will have barriers for the time being, to stop anyone outside your clan from getting through the barrier.
Possible next steps, open for further discussion: Either opening the clanhalls completely so non clan members can enter other clan halls, (boards would remain private), and clans would have the ability to start paying for further protection etc.
Or, clanhall barriers being removed for players from clans at war. ie, if I were to declare war on DJ's, I'd be able to enter their clanhall, they'd be able to enter my clanhall, for the duration of the war.
That's what's on the agenda currently.
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I am assuming that clans will be allowed to keep all their existing exists, and that the new entrance/exit will be free since this is an imm imposed decision vs an individual clan request. Can the new entrance/exit be made so that mounts (groups) can go through them? And out of curiosity, how do clans currently without exits leave their clan hall? Use a recall scroll each time?
I am strongly against clan halls being open for non-members to enter whenever they wish. Clans are like private, restricted membership clubs and in real life such clubs are not open to the public, and it makes no IC sense to do it in the game. And it would be really annoying if you are having a meeting or talking to a clan member or waiting for your corpse and some yahoo comes strolling through your clan hall.
I like the idea of barriers being removed from clan halls for clans who are at war. Will non-pk clan members be allowed to try to kill intruders?
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There will be ONE entrace/exit per clan, and it will be open for mounts/groups. It is a simple room exit, it's not a portal or anything..
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And out of curiosity, how do clans currently without exits leave their clan hall? Use a recall scroll each time?
Currently each clan has an exit into the "real" 4D world, but not entrance into the clan from there. This is what is currently being fixed. All clans also have a portal room which has about 5 exits into the "real" 4D world - one for each dimension of the world and then one to recall.
I'm not sure how I feel on this. I can see non-clanmembers gaining access to a 'waiting room' which could have flyers, banners, pens, etc, to give out to possible "recruits", but to let anyone walk through the clan (except for the crashproof room where clanmembers store their stuff, I'm assuming) seems a bit... silly. That would allow any person to buy objects from any clan that he/she wanted due to the stores the clans have. Personally, I wouldn't want people running around with the "viking clan only" items just because they could get to the person that has them.
My.. however many cents you want it to be.
Kvetchy
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And out of curiosity, how do clans currently without exits leave their clan hall? Use a recall scroll each time?
Your clan recall item can also send you to recall....