4Dimensions Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Molly on October 23, 2010, 06:00:59 am
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Kvetch raised a subject on the Admin board about the now dangerously low playerbase, and what might be done about it.
It's a sad fact that 4D seems to be slowly dying - a fate we share with many other text muds, but that doesn't make it any less depressing.
Anyhow, the first thing that comes to mind is of course to ask for input from our players, old and new ones.
So here are some blunt questions that I hope we can get responses to, from both players and imms:
(You don't have to answer all of them of course, just pick the ones that are relevant to you.
And please try to be as specific as possible, we can take critic, but it should be constructive.
The options I put at the end of each question are just starting points).
1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
(game got too hard, game got too easy, too many changes, too few changes, wrong changes, too little RP, too much RP, player conflicts, bad imms, boredom, all my friends left, RL changes, playing WoW etc.)
1B. (for imms) What made you stop working on 4D?
2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
(new code features, new zones, new quests, better balance of equipment and classes, more interesting Clans, more imm-run events, more player-run events, timered events and quests, more new players, more old players returning etc.)
3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
(4D used to be like a big chat room, where people hung out just to talk with friends. Is there any way we could bring at least the Recall Squatter spirit back again?)
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
In particular I'd like ideas about how to target and reach a new audience. (Even of most of the gaming interest has moved to graphics, there must still be thousands of people connected to internet, who like to read, and might enjoy the more complex atmosphere of a Text mud. But how do we make these people aware that Text muds in general - and 4D in particular - even exist, now that muds are no longer mainstream?)
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Maybe it's just nostalgia talking? Maybe it was just more fun because back then it was new and fresh to you? Or because there were more active players back then?
But if there is something specific that you think was better before, please share your thoughts here.
8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?
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1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
Going to uni pretty much, though lots of wrong changes probably played a bit of a part.
2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
Better balance of equipment and classes, more interesting clans, timered events and quests, more new players, more old players returning.
These things would definitely bring me back.
3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
If everyone else was there.
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
This is something I'm not sure about.. Making it an iPhone app would probably be the best way.
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
Mud school itself is really amazing, but the actual character creation code is a bit fucked up and the newbie initiation stuff is weird.
Logging into the mud for the first time you get bombarded with HINTs every 3 or 4 seconds (every second hint being 'use NOHINT to turn off hints'). You then have to wander through a few tutorial rooms going downwards where you've suddenly got to stop going down or you drop out of mud school and start heading north towards mud school itself. Most of these first rooms have inviting down exits all open by default asking if you want to drop out and go to recall. You then have to deal with a really overbearing Gordy the Greeter and choose between mud school, newbie zones and a bunch of other places. This is not ideal for a newbie that really doesn't have any idea whether they should go north, east or west and only really benefits older players creating alts and skipping through everything. Once you actually manage to make it past Lionel I imagine most newbies would be hooked at least for a while, but I imagine a lot of newbies leave before they even make it to the 'real' mud descriptions themselves, and through the tutorial stuff.
This could be fixed quite easily by linking the first 2 rooms a new character loads into up to north of Gordy, rather than south of him. So fresh new players start and head straight towards mud school, and only when they hold their feather, recall and head north again do they hit Gordy.
Also the character creation code is really annoying in that it doesn't allow for a 'back' option, one of the fundamentals of a creation interface.
New characters are also created with nobat toggled off, saving them from 'who' spam but not giving them the details they want during fights.
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Dern, see above.
7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Definitely mostly nostalgia mixed with no players on the mud anymore to hang out with.
8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
Sibling rivalry.
9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
4d has everything for it and also so much against it..
10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?
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1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
Full time job + overtime at said job + school + Family time = hard to play anything anymore until I graduate in June.
2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
Well, with the absense of the new code, I find it unlikely for anything in 4D to truly draw me back aside form basic socialization. It's too monotonous for me. game lacks balance in so many areas across the 4D spectrum.
3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
I do what I can now. nothing will ever keep me away for too long. I like popping in to see who s on, and shoot the shit with them.
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
Well, I've been trying to get people to make a Facebook application for a long time now. Seems like anything I have said to help get numbers up, and help the mud, is ignored for the most part. I'm not even close to being a coder. I don't know prograsmming languages, but there are people who do, and they don't want to do it. What it really comes down to is not what the PLAYERS think about bringing in numbers. It's about what the IMMS are WILLING to do to get the numbers.
As I see it, (excluding you) we have a bunch of imms who have holed out spots of eternal IMMdome, and don't really care one way or another about numbers increase. Maybe it is out of fear of getting in better imms/coders in the future? Look at that whole Horus deal. It only ended terribly. Too many cooks in the kitchen, nobody talking about the same recipy.
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
Most people dont like reading. Every single one of us that plays muds still, tend to be readers. We like imagination. We are a huge minority. However, you are competing with big name games like Starcraft, Warcraft, and the upcoming Dialbo III. People flock to those kind of things, not counting XBOX Live, and PS3 games that absorb gamers lives. Gaming has evolved to a much greater monster. Mudding has gone from mainstream classic internet gaming to that old dirt professor who peeves on all the hot gamers he THINKS are girls. But we all know that there are no girls on the interwebs.
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
See post above. Also, Mudding is not an easy thing to do. Especially our mud. Players now-a-days who do quest on visual games, get ! markers, and ? markers to show who and what is affecting/giving a quest. Players get it easy these days, on top of fantastic graphics to look at.
7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Old code was great. the days of Dela, Alabaster, Omega, Tynian, Odinkirk, Darkwolf, Zsjin, and so on- Those were great times, aside form the blatent cheating that went on of course, but great times. The code was simple. The gear was a little more balanced so taht everyone kinda worked on the same playing field. The only competition we had was to see who could remort the most, adding to their HP/MV/MP like crazy- getting largeer and larger numbers. That was it! So simple, and so fun.
New code came along, and things changed drastically. Groups were messed with. Classes got wierd, and sloppy. People were no longer coming together to fight big bad bosses, and spamming the rest of the world with their deaths. Cheating went rampant, and unculled for a long time.
The only time we had big numbers is when we had drama queens like Exodus/Azreal, and so on. Because 4D likes drama, and our numbers always jump with the intensity of said drama.
8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
Alabaster, Dela, and Odinkirk. I know Odinkirk IRL, and he got me into MUDs. Logged on, and met cool people. Some strange random IMM named Molly welcomed me to 4D and gave me a Gold Token
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I think people these days forget that the new code was originally great. Most of the imbalance and shit came at least a year and a half after the change.
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For me, although I still tend to get on to hang out, it comes down mostly to 3 things...
1: Real life. I am in graduate school, and so I am extremely busy all of the time. Unfortunately, 4D is near the very bottom of the things on my list of things to do even in my free time.
2: Lack of things for me to do in game. I've been a part of 4D for a looooooong time... over 10 years, and not only am I out of big quests to do, the few things I haven't done just don't really interest me enough (if I did do them, once they were done, i'm back to where I am now). I've pretty much explored everything too... theres just not much interest in the game aspect for me anymore.
3: There are very few people around these days, as is quite obvious. I tend to get on more when I see people I know on to chat, but even that is on a downward spiral. I'd probably be back on more if there were more of my buddies from the past on, but even then, see reason 1.
I am still working on a zone, but slowly. Why? Well, because when I FINALLY would get it done, it probably won't see that many explorers. Good zones take a lot of time, and the time I do have can be spent doing things way more productive than building, and its hard to justify that amount of time while in school, when barely anybody will see the end product.
As was my view during the whole code change conversations, mudding is on a downward spiral in terms of popularity and interest. Toch's ideas may hold some weight to boost activity, but only implementing them/time would tell. As for getting them to stay... well, who knows. Probably more people on.
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I'm not an ex-player or an ex-IMM, but I thought I'd try to answer these questions as I see it:
1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
I'm not an ex-player - I'm still found online most nights (usa nights that is). Off and on I have considered quiting for one reason or another, but I keep staying because I really do love to build on mud's and 4D has so many options and has let me be as creative as I want to be (sometimes pushing me past what I think is my breaking point with scripts).
1B. (for imms) What made you stop working on 4D?
I haven't stopped working (yet - though it has slowed down) but the fact that there are so few players currently on has made me wonder if what I"m currently working on is even going to be seen, much less cared about.
2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
More players on would make me more active in trying to get my zone(s) done so people could explore them.
3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
You need people to socialize with. Without that there is no socializing. I logged on the last two nights and there was one afk person on. After half an hour, I left. I've got a life too and decided to spend a little bit of time with the people in my real life since there was no one in my mud life.
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
I've been doing what I can - posting on sites like TMC and TMS with special things like the haunted house. I may just do a general posting later on those sites to remind people that we're here and we're always looking for players. But without those that know the game willing to stick around to help those that don't know the game, I don't know what we can do.
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
I'm not sure. They seem to like Mudschool as their hand is basically held through that until they get to the academy. So unless we're willing to sacrifice some principals (look, a big yellow ! is above this guy's head, maybe he's got a quest (though we do something like that with the trainers... *innocent look*)) and hand hold them throughout the rest of the mud, I don't know. The only other possibility I have is to make sure that almost every mob has some sort of quest - even if it is a small one ("get me a flower for my girlfriend") instead of just a random number of them (yes, we have a lot of quests), make sure that things listed in the room description is actually listed as somethign to look at (I don't know how many times I see "you don't see that here" when it's in the room description so obviously I did...) and it is little things like that which can annoy people at times when they're expecting so much more.
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Some of it can be the fact that you really don't know how high of a level someone is. You see T4 level 50, but you don't know how many times that person has been T4 level 50. People like to be able to compare how they are with how other people are. If I"m level 50, I want to know that the person that's level 100 is probably going to kick my butt and the person's that level 20, probably will not. But with the teirs, multiple remorting/whatnot, you don't have that. On most games out there, there is a max level to shoot for so you know how far away you are from it, and once you're there, you should be able to take a LOT of things in the game, though maybe not all things - that may require a group. It may take a while to get to that level, but its there. Also, there have been promises of things that "will be in soon" for years. Look at the trader's office in the recall area: * The Crafts are not yet implemented, but we expect them to be soon. It's said that since I was a newbie. I'd almost rather have the trader's office taken out than have people think "oh, in a couple of months we'll have crafts, cool" then be disappointed when it doesn't happen. Right now we don't have a full time coder that works on the mud and makes heavy changes - changes that we'd need to get crafts put in.
7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
I really don't know how to answer this. I don't consider myself having been a player in "they old days" though I've played for around 5 years. I do know when I started, the main playerbase seemed to be Swedes and that timezone, these days, the people I run into are usually from USA. Maybe we need to put a public service message out to the Swedish again.
8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
I was looking for a mud that would let me build. I'd been on a mud and had gotten an idea for an area, but was told "we don't accept player submitted area ideas" which totally turned me off. You'd think that since I'd built on a mud 10 years previous and had at least some building experience there would have been some thought to it, but it didn't even get that far, the IMM on that mud was not interested in listening. So, I checked out - TMC, I think it wask - forum and saw a post by Molly stating some of the things a mud called 4 Dimensions had - quests and things like that. So, logged in, had a problem (kept ending up in some spa when I tried to use the stagecoach in mudschool) and the IMM Molly and Mordecai both actually seemed to care about it and days later it was cleared up. Then I asked about becoming a builder and was told I had to get to level 40... so after doing that about 3 times I finally asked if I was high enough level yet - rest is history. Oh, plus I liked talking to the people on - there used to be people on....
9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
Seeing as I don't actually play (since I'm a builder and IMM and check on scripts that error, or scripts that interest me, I didn't think it'd be fair since I could use that knowledge for my mort - which to me felt like cheating), I find it hard to answer this question. I have heard from other players that quit that they did it because of the change with how skills/spells were learned (that's when the trainers went in). Some people don't want the extra work of having to look around the zones (and we do have a lot of them) for a skill/spell. personally, even with how it used to be, if I knew I could level quickly, I didn't bother getting the top skill/spell for my class. I mean, look at priest who's top skill is mana blast - at level 50. The next lowest skill is level 32. I never did reach level 50 as a priest, but I probably wouldn't have bothered trying to find whoever trains it (now, if I happened to stumble across them, that's another story).
10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?
Yeah... players. There's a feature I miss and want. Sometimes features get changed and I don't even know it. Like the change from having to choose your class during creation and going to the choosing either fighter/caster/rogue and later choosing your real class. I don't know how long that was in before newbies started asking me questions about it and of course I didn't know anything about it. Which really doesn't make us look too good when the IMM's going "huh? what? What the heck are you talking about???" I don't really know of any features I want back, persay, but I'd like to think that 4D is too good to die - we just need to find the right players to appreciate it more.
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Trainers is one implementation that I think went horribly wrong, and most of that probably lies on me. I still think they could be a really cool feature on a thriving 4d, but the timing of the implementation and the subsequent collapse of Anubis' proposed code changes ended up leaving us with a system that would have been more appropriate after a pwipe and just annoyed a lot of older players into not remorting at all anymore.
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I had really hoped for some more constructive suggestions, but as usual I seem to have been over optimistic.
However, we have to start somewhere, so we'll take what we've got, and maybe some more ideas will come up along the way.
One main complaint, that seems to pop up whoever you talk to, is the specialized Trainers. This was a change that I believed strongly in myself, which is why so much work (including a RP event) was put into it. But apparently it's a change that most players hate, so I guess the best we can do is to revert it.
Consequently the 8 Class Guildmasters, the 9 Clan Guildmasters, and the 2 Trainers at Recall (Lionel and Mike) will be set back to teach all skills and spells. (The specialised trainers will still teach their chosen skills, since it would mean unnecessary work to remove that. People can use them if they want, and ignore them if they don't).
Of course, the above promise is dependent on getting a coder to make the actual change, but since I think it should be a relatively quick fix, I am hoping one of them will oblige relatively soon (fingers crossed).
I've fixed the entrance to Mud School, and I'll take Kvetch's hint and also fix the desc in the Traders' Office, which has been annoying me too for a very long time. I really wanted these crafts, but obviously there is little chance of anyone taking on the massive work that is needed to finish them, so at least I'll make sure that there is no false info given in the game.
However, I am not deluding myself into thinking that fixing the Trainers will make players flood back into 4D. I also don't believe that Anubis bailing out on us with the proposed new code is the main reason for the present decay, even though it certainly didn't help much, neither before nor after the fact.
The main problem lies much deeper, and is partly something that we share with most Text Muds. With all the competition from flashy graphics, Text Muds have gone out of fashion, and the combined playerbase for all text muds is shrinking, while so far the number of muds has stayed relatively constant. This makes it increasingly hard to get new players to replace the old ones that inevitably leave the game sooner or later. And as long as there are no other players on line, the ones that actually do log on will leave soon after they notice that nobody on line is responsive. It's a vicious cycle that leads to a downgoing spiral.
So is there any chance of attracting a larger part of the existing player pool that still are into Text Muds? Or tapping into new sources, by reaching the number of people out there, who still like to read and might enjoy depth and complexity, and alert them of the fact that Text Muds even exist?
Toch mentioned a Facebook application, and I've heard of a Mud that got a significative inflow of players by developing a client that allows people to play from their i-phone.
And Virisin has expressed willingness to do some coding work for the Mud, and can probably combine the inevitable learning process with an assignment in his computer Class at Uni.
Originally I think his intention was to clean up the fighting code, and perhaps get rid of the Tiers and GMs that also seem to have been a rather unpopular change.
But perhaps his offer of putting in some effort would better be directed into working with a client, that makes it more user friendly and perhaps helps attracting a new type of players?
And if so, should he concentrate on i-phone or Facebook, or is it possible to combine both?
Thoughts, anyone?
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My laptop is in the shop for another 4 weeks that is why i havnt Been on.... be back sooooon
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"And if so, should he concentrate on i-phone or Facebook, or is it possible to combine both?"
-Anything is possible, and I really believe it could help us big time.
I'm going to have a couple extra bucks that I can spare here in the near future to make a facebook add that will pop up. I STRONGLY believe this will help, but really only if we can get an app together. players these days are lazy. DLing a random mud client isn't really gonna happen unless they're truly interested in text games.
IF we have an app available for said lazy players, then BAM, no work required and now they're playing seamlessly on FB! Win win situation in my opinion.
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I will do my best to try and make a facebook client and an iPhone client.. I have no idea how difficult either are at this stage though, and I can't really devote any real time to it until next year. If you can wait until then I would be eager to have a go. As of now.. I have an exam to test me on my Java capabilities tomorrow, unfortunately it's 2 hours after an exam testing me on how much I know about some various political subjects.
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Hi!
I am new to this MUD and I really quite like the concept. I don't know much about it yet, but I can honestly tell you that the first thing that hits me that would make me turn away from it? The move points system.
It is really horrible to be lost in a giant area, trying to find this one quest NPC from a vague mention on a quest card, only to repeatedly run out of move points and have to stop and rest for several minutes. Since there is... almost no one on whenever I am logged in, I can't just sit and chat with someone while I wait, and I am not going to sit there and count the seconds. What happens is that I click out of the window to do something else while I wait. And then, when my move points prison time is over with, I am excited! Yay, I can move again! A dozen rooms or so and then I have to stop and recharge. :(
It kills the experience. :(
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Invest in a mount! Actually not saying that to be mean, but that is one of the reasons they're in the game - to help with the moves. I'm glad you're liking the game so far other than that though. :)
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Yeah, I know about mounts. But then I have to use my precious practices to learn how to ride a mount, and then have to solely depend on it for everything and relearn how to navigate around the MUD.
Mounts are cool for some things, but, I don't mean any disrespect to everyone here, it is a fatal flaw in a design if they are /required/ for daily survival.
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moves are a stupidly dead concept anyhow.
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My instinct shies away from changing something that is the basis for the mount and vehicle system.
But on the other hand I most certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from exploring, since that is the main idea behind 4D.
As far as I know, movepoints are only a problem for low level players, so maybe the coders could set it so that players start out with a higher amount of moves. I'll see what I can do.
And on another note, make sure that you are not hungry or thirsty, because that affects your stamina, and use vehicles where you can find any. If you are exploring in Prehistoric and Future, make use of the ships and spaceships.
And I think you'll see that the mounts are well worth the training sessions in riding, and they defonitely don't make navigation any different. Nor do vehicles, as long as you sit down when driving.
There is also equipment with extra movepoints that you can find, mostly leg and footwear.
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Moves really are terrible. I noticed that when I created a new char recently too.
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Any equipment that gives extra moves is a complete waste of stats.
Hunger and Thirst is really only good if you have battlespam off. Most people don't even know they need nourishment.
Movements/stamina, and hunger/thirst really need to just vanish.
I mean, this is my point exactly. We're still entrenched in an old gaming style that just make people go "Really?". If you WANT peple of the new gaming age to come play an antique, then you got give a little something for them.
does it truly ruin vehicles/mounts? I doubt it. People will buy them anyway because they are cool.
Besides, if my mount has less moves/stamina than me, and is falling everywhere, it's just proof of a bad movement system taht needs to vanish.
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If Convey maxmove still works, it will get a new player an extra 100 maxmove points in exchange for 10 million gold. It could be used multiple times but the cost goes up, the 10 million is multiplied by the number of times the player has used it. It still shows up in the help files.
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I want to point out that moves are pointless so long as stamina still exists.
Remove stamina. Problem semi-solved.
Convey is great if gold still dropped from everything, as opposed to ONLY humanoids. (one of the dumbest changes ever. We are the ONLY mud to do that crap.)
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I'm working on increasing the starting amount of movement that first time creation players get. And Stamina does change depending on what the area is like ie for example you will lose more stamina walking through the mountains than when you are walking in plains. And Space really sucks up Stamina.
Prometheus
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For now as a help to speed up your movepoints regeneration: there are some inns spread around the Realm that will help you regain your moves faster if you're sleeping in those Inns. Providing you're not hungry or thirsty.
A list of those Inns can be found in the room one west of Recall. Also another suggestion to prevent hunger/thirst, each time you're in Recall, whether you died or just recalled, make a habit to go to the milk fountain east of Recall, and drink the milk till you're full. It not only gets rid of thirst but also of hunger.
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Tocharaeh is right about the gold, some of, (what I take for), the humanoids even quit carrying gold when that change went in. :(
Stamina, isn't it tied to the race and occupation of the player, and as such something they have at least limited control over when creating a character? I need find more information on it.
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Hey
I read what was written before, I would not want to answer all questions, but I think the answer may be quite simple: Clans
I remember what attracted me most to 4d was that it was a fight between clans ,also whenever someone came into play, all the talk, all that was heard ,was about the importance of the clan, about how important it is to do part of a clan and everyone wanted to be part of a clan -> drama -> interest -> lots of people playing
I think some changes should be made also in this side of the game
Also the first remort should require less experience , so people would be "lost" without a clan
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I need to cogitate on Asmo's post.
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Get rid of moves. Possibly keep stamina and tweak it so extreme environments are still extremely difficult to cope with without a mount; eg Llano, outer space.. other deserts. That should only be extreme environments though, where it adds to the zone's dynamic. Nothing should slow down exploration in the vast remainder of the game. Get rid of moves.
Clans require players. More players = better clan dynamics. Fiddling with clans without the playerbase won't do anything.
Although adding the clan war mechanics and mob loyalties Mord used to talk about would be worth it regardless.
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4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
In particular I'd like ideas about how to target and reach a new audience. (Even of most of the gaming interest has moved to graphics, there must still be thousands of people connected to internet, who like to read, and might enjoy the more complex atmosphere of a Text mud. But how do we make these people aware that Text muds in general - and 4D in particular - even exist, now that muds are no longer mainstream?)
You want to reach a new audience. There are lots of people who might enjoy text-based muds, particularly one with as much depth as 4 Dimensions, but they won't even give it a chance because of the lack of graphics.
So...why not add graphics?
4D is a text-based game and that shouldn't change, it's important to play to your strengths. But just as MMORPGs use a certain amount of text, so many MUDs also use graphics, and 4D is no exception. Take the 'map' command for example. That draws a map of your surroundings using ASCII graphics. But wouldn't it look nicer if it instead displayed the same graphical maps that are available on the website, and updated them in real-time as you moved around?
Or how about the prompt? A sequence of mysterious abbreviations and numbers that are displayed over and over, it's like a second language to a veteran but pretty unintuitive for a first-time mudder. Why not move that same information into a set of clearly labelled energy bars?
Players who don't like graphics wouldn't need to use them, they could carry on playing exactly like they do now. But for attracting new players, particularly those from outside the text mud community, it could make a strong selling point.
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
One possible reason may be technical. Your implementation of MCCP appears to be broken. When I connect with Mudlet the session freezes during character creation, and when I connect with BlowTorch the client crashes every time. I connected with TinTin++ in debug mode, and found that you initiate MCCP at the exact point where the other two clients die.
If a new player tries to connect and their client keeps freezing or crashing, they'll just move on to the next mud on their list.
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I think it is not entirely clans that will help the player base grow again, it is camaraderie. Every new player is another potential new player to stay. I kind of lived this idea when I was CL of Dragons. I essentially took anyone into the clan, just had them perform simple find an item quest etc. At the same time teaching them the basics and fundamentals of questing on a better scale than the mud school. At the same time being their friend. This made Dragons the largest clan at the time of active members but we also got labelled as the noob clan because of the members we had.
This is what we need clans to become right now. With the little number of players we have we have too many clans. I would personally recommend to temporarily shut down clans like Qualinesti. Perhaps incorporate them into a clan currently there. I would recommend say two or three clans. One good, one neutral and one evil. This way if people join for an RP purpose they have a clan that would fit them.
And if every leader would treat it as I did back when I was Dragons CL and recruit anyone and everyone and teach them, and be friendly, in their own clan RP sort of way then people will certainly be more prone to stay.
After we begin to grow, we could then start doing RP events and such to re-open the temporarily shutdown clans, with player chosen leader for the clans.
If the first thing someone experiences when they join is a companion, someone who they can talk to when they log in, or a purpose and a reason to play and come back then I feel we have a chance at growing.
Also Klax's mention of MCCP, I am unaware of how this works exactly but it would definitely be something to look into. Right now we are still ranked #1 on mudgamers.com and if people are looking for a new mud, they will see that. Our next goal is to keep those new players, and I think we can do that first by simply 'making friends'
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Open clans. I will volunteer Chaos as the test subject. If you've got the balls to land on Queltoria and avoid the dt's littering the landscape to reach the keep, you should be able to gain access to our healer at least! >.< All the good bits are tucked away, and I'm sure we can set up a looting system that's good and fair to keep people defending their stuff. Chaos just recently donated all of their vault contents to the newbies of the realms, and the newbies that were descerning were set up! 4d isn't going to go away, but the ebb and flow will continue as people come and go from their duties to their pleasures. >.<
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Open clans. I will volunteer Chaos as the test subject. If you've got the balls to land on Queltoria and avoid the dt's littering the landscape to reach the keep, you should be able to gain access to our healer at least! >.< All the good bits are tucked away, and I'm sure we can set up a looting system that's good and fair to keep people defending their stuff. Chaos just recently donated all of their vault contents to the newbies of the realms, and the newbies that were descerning were set up! 4d isn't going to go away, but the ebb and flow will continue as people come and go from their duties to their pleasures. >.<
I will volunteer to go into the Chaos HQ and ransack it to my hearts content.
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Come do your worst! :-*
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Come do your worst! :-*
Even though you're the anti-me, the Satan to Christ, the Dr Evil to Austin Powers, I would love to ransack you errr your person errr your personal belongings!
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Too many Kitolani's as the saying goes in Highlander:
"There can only be one Kitolani!"
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I really think alot of the problems that keep new players from staying is for the simple fact after mud school they are just throw into this huge world and they have no idea where to go. They start to explore and its easy to find death. Also the lack of equipment, and how hard it is to find when you are new. I remember how aggravating it was to look around for equipment and die going to a new zone.
After the quest school I think more emphasizes should be put on them exploring the newbie zones then have them seek out their guildmaster in old yorke that will send them on quests in areas where they can find equipment, and places to level.
I dont know how many times i look at a new person who has some levels under their belt and how naked they are, and when they look at you they see this full set of equipment. Now I know people say its easy to find equipment by looking around. This is coming from olbies whos been around for a while. I personally remember finding alot of the races unique spots some of the hardest things to find.
So i really like the idea of giving them the ability to be lead into a direction from their classes guild master to areas they can find equipment best suited for their class. These quest that their guild master gives them I think should also give them a decent ammount of experience also add a few more pieces of equipment to help them level up and fill up their equipment slots.
These quest shouldn't be overly to difficult but it at least will put them in this zone and close to direction of them being able to find this equipment with a little bit of hard work. I think its best to make them work for it then having olbies point them in this direction of just always give handouts.
A few examples would be
1. The Mage Guild master wife has is attending a banquet dinner at the Blue Dragon Inn and she wants to make sure she looks her best.So he asks you to take her dress to Marguerite at the Silk and Satin shop to have it tailored. Now they will be rewarded with some experience and also the store provides some equipment that has stats suited for their needs as a mage.(A good suggestion from Loria duplicate the items he sells but for a male)
Now lets not forget that with a fancy dress you also need some fancy jewelry, but his wife has recently broken her diamond bracelet and She needs it deliver to Janet at the jewelery store so she can fix the link. This will give them the ability to know where to buy some shiny rings that will help their charisma.
2. The Warriors Guildsmaster is in need of a personal guard to escort his family to Dragon Islands. There's a few pieces of equipment that they can buy at the store there that will help melee fighters.
3. After you finish the quest for the Mages Guildnaster he will ask you to help gather some fresh seafood for the banquet dinner and asks you to explorer the Agean sea and gather him up a list of fish. This will point casters towards the magical fishhook.
Now as they continue with quests from these guildmasters their guildmasters will lead them directly into new mobs that will give them new small quests that will lead them elsewhere for a bit till they are a bit more prepared to take on the 4d world completely on their own.
Now I also think that beginners should also earn more then just gold for reaching certain levels. They should also be rewarded with equipment based on their class and race. Just because some slots with stats that help their specific class are harder to find than others.
Ex - Tails. I remember it took me forever to find a tail slot. Low stats items are not gonna hurt the game play and it will help give the players a full equipment set and make it a little easier to help them level with the added stats and armor.
The olive branch, If i remember correctly you can only use it till level 20. Raise this limit or slowly make the item get weaker as they go on, but letting them keep it a bit longer help them level a bit more quickly. There is also a pair of glasses in the old west, i cant remember if its the quest school or the newbie old west zone. Gives them inn infravision but it also has a level limit.
If you like my ideas, I will continue and start gathering all the items I can find it in the easier zones and give ideas of quests that can put them in the general location of where these items are; along with finding out which slots for mages/melee are the hardest to find for newbies to make for rewards for hitting a certain levels.
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These are good points.
I've been thinking that designing a single 'quest' that basically leads newbs through their first few remorts would be a good way of guiding them. So instead of being thrown straight from school into one massive world as you say, we could have someone akin to a newb version of Roger Young directing newbs through a long string of tasks that would involve both collecting a set of useful equipment (quest and regular), reaching certain levels/tiers, and probably hunting down a few items from useful zones (eg: tradepoint regions).
I think that would work better than just adding more independent quests because we already have heaps of those.
I'm pretty busy with a bunch of things but Bane if you are keen to track down worthy and achievable sets of melee/magic equip for newbs that would be really useful.
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HAha... Jaros your funny :D
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This is a great idea. If you start putting the work in and showing it on the forums here we'll make sure your work isn't wasted. I think a lot of good could cone of this.
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I also think that Bane's post is an excellent idea. It could definitely make a difference in retaining new players.
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I'd also recommend anyone else who can spare some time to join in. Make a new thread and get to work. I'll post more about this tonight.
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I have to say that the original post was asking if 4D was dying. At the time, I thought the question was yes, but it was just a matter of time. These days, with all the coding and all of the PLAYER ideas flooding th forum, I thing that maybe CPR has been used and there is new life in this mud. I want to thank everyone that has helped breath new life into our beloved mud. I also want to say, keep the ideas coming!!
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Going to attempt to not say the same thing as others have... But all my answers basically follow along the same tune...
1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
Real life got in the way - relationship etc. But, moreso, other "oldbies" were leaving, nothing exciting was happening anymore, roleplay died with the loss of people like Soulstar, Zenathos and Kierta (and many MANY others). Everyone just sits at recall now, nothing happens. What's the point? Every time I log back into 4d (once a week or so for 30 seconds), I half contemplate playing more, but then realise I have to re-learn everything for the gazillionth time, don't have a good weapon cause the tinker ran out :p, forget all the commands for homes and mounts, and everyone's AFK. Not a motivation, unfortunately. I wouldn't mind trying to change that, though.
2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
More atmosphere. Some well played characters. People in Sicilians who really act like gangsters. People in vampires that actually roleplay and act like vampires, unlike the current joke of a clan that has people that never RP. (;)). We have enough zones (though new is always fun!), we just need the people interacting. And hopefully, more people online, and active. It's depressing logging in to see 5 people online, and all of them AFK. Would love to see 10, 20, 30, 50+, maybe we lost sight of that somehow?
3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
(4D used to be like a big chat room, where people hung out just to talk with friends. Is there any way we could bring at least the Recall Squatter spirit back again?)
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
I think, perhaps, some of the problem we have is we have SO MUCH CHOICE, but not much depth. I think we should actually remove a lot of the old zones, make way for the new. Freshen things up a bit. There's so much potential, but it's almost as if we are presenting everything in the wrong way.
We need clearer better maps, a more appetising website design that doesn't feel like a coder cleanly made it (No offence. It's perfect, but it's coder-perfect :p). Easier to read/find help files or guides. A redesign of the future "space port". Better descriptions, more interactive, more involving.
But please, remove some of the older zones. Time to make way with the old.
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
As above, plus some change with the class system, or at least further motivation to play beyond hitting GM.
Also comes down to atmosphere.
Also, less favouritism. God's (IMMs) in the sky used to be something more respected and rarely seen or spoken to. IMMs were up there doing their thang, muchly invisible. Now? I get we're all like one strange family, but I think the line between IMMs and mortals has blurred too much. Thin it back a bit, particularly so new players don't feel out of place. Try to engage them in character, too... There needs to be some sense of authority in a game. By allowing everyone to input and work in a mud, it takes away the game aspect part of it a bit, yknow?
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Many people I'd think it'd just be a case of a short attention span. Unfortunately, if something doesn't grab someone in 30 seconds, it's forgotten about.
But right now? The fact we're all afk/sitting at recall, OR, giving eachother abuse and unnecessary stuff on public channels. Constant swearing, namecalling, or rude remarks aren't exactly going to encourage people to stick around for long. Cut back on the shit-talk, people.
7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Same thing I've basically been saying all along. More RPing and atmosphere. You knew Soulstar wasn't fibbing when he said he could ruin your life until you paid what you owed. PKing meant something, and showed skill. Enemies, friendships, relationships. And yes, everything was more fresh.
8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
No clue, to be honest. Too long ago... heh
9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
SO MANY COMMUNICATION CHANNELS! Why do we need so many? It's almost too easy to communicate in this game.
FORCED EMOTIVES! Can't stand them. Someone hugs you, you can't do shit about it. God, if there was anything I would beg to be changed, it'd be this.
10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?
Disliking the limit on number of perz's, or rather, not being allowed to perz one time items. Seems like if you got it with your character, you should be allowed to perz it, not rely on making an alt to get another one for your main, that really kills the whole depth of the realms thing...
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In addition... I think there's too much of a "development" atmosphere in 4d. Too much talk of testing, bad files, coding, or ideas to improve the mud. Whilst all very valid, it takes away from the feel of 4d being a game, rather than some open-source work in progress.
I would seriously suggest cutting back on the openness of development in 4d, and try to be IMMs in game, and leave the rest for behind the scenes, yknow?
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Just a few responses to Nat’s post:
4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
I think, perhaps, some of the problem we have is we have SO MUCH CHOICE, but not much depth. I think we should actually remove a lot of the old zones, make way for the new. Freshen things up a bit. There's so much potential, but it's almost as if we are presenting everything in the wrong way.
We need clearer better maps, a more appetising website design that doesn't feel like a coder cleanly made it (No offence. It's perfect, but it's coder-perfect :p). Easier to read/find help files or guides. A redesign of the future "space port". Better descriptions, more interactive, more involving.
But please, remove some of the older zones. Time to make way with the old.
Perhaps clearing up some of the older zones would be neat, and reworking the maps to force people into new territory may help some, but I think some people don’t like being forced to travel to new areas (probably about as much as some people dislike socials – aka: forced emotes). The story behind 4D would actually make for a great reason for areas to appear and disappear over time – the dimensional portals have shifted and suddenly new lands have emerged while old ones have been found. We could make it a regular thing to shift around areas, but then our website maps are virtually useless. *shrug*
5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
As above, plus some change with the class system, or at least further motivation to play beyond hitting GM.
Also comes down to atmosphere.
Also, less favouritism. God's (IMMs) in the sky used to be something more respected and rarely seen or spoken to. IMMs were up there doing their thang, muchly invisible. Now? I get we're all like one strange family, but I think the line between IMMs and mortals has blurred too much. Thin it back a bit, particularly so new players don't feel out of place. Try to engage them in character, too... There needs to be some sense of authority in a game. By allowing everyone to input and work in a mud, it takes away the game aspect part of it a bit, yknow?
While I could agree with the less favoritism, it seems like you mean less IMM friendliness here. Which is something I have to disagree with. One of the reasons I stayed on 4D is because both Molly and Mordecai showed an honest interest personally when I (as a level 4(?) maybe newbie pointed out that there seemed to be a problem with the dogcart in the Old West section of the mudschool. I admit, I was awed (I was only level 4 or so and probably only been on the mud for a couple of hours and an IMM was answering my question personally) but it stuck with me to the point that this day (10+years later) I can still tell you that it was 1) Molly AND Mordecai and 2) the exact thing that happened. Their involvement that day made me realize that they cared enough to personally see to it. Though, I must admit that Mord probably thought I was a nag after that since every time I saw him I asked what was up with it.
6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Many people I'd think it'd just be a case of a short attention span. Unfortunately, if something doesn't grab someone in 30 seconds, it's forgotten about.
But right now? The fact we're all afk/sitting at recall, OR, giving eachother abuse and unnecessary stuff on public channels. Constant swearing, namecalling, or rude remarks aren't exactly going to encourage people to stick around for long. Cut back on the shit-talk, people.
I admit, I thought of this the other day and realized that as a new player with a lot of the comments going on over gossip, I wouldn’t stay. I mean, really, if I was going to make my feelings known about the people with what they say over gossip, most of the players would probably think I hate them. I don’t. I do hate what’s said, but then it all falls under “freedom of speech” and “adult things”. But it also falls under the “don’t act like an ass” and “be mature about the freedom we give you.” Which wins? It’s also because of what’s going on over gossip that I want to finish all the projects I have going on the build port. Because, once I’m done there, I’ll feel free to move on to someplace else if it all keeps up (yes, I have considered just saying “hell with it” and drop all projects, but I’m not that type of person and I am more invested in this place than it sometimes seems. It seems to die down once in a while, but then we get people that start it up again. I understand that some people like that sort of thing, but there are also some that don’t and I wish we could give everyone a chance before we start pounding on them – or letting them into the “family secret” of rudeness and namecalling and other general abuse.
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As an example of stuff over gossip - take this little tidbit recoverd with "gos:
1: Pix gossips, '*transport'
2: Once gossips, 'they get so many free tickets a year'
3: Once gossips, 'banging a pilot is the cheapest'
4: Once gossips, 'where's the womens rights groups'
5: Pix gossips, 'which is cheaper though..bus, train, or air in the US?'
6: Once gossips, 'so I can start sleeping with one'
7: Once gossips, 'there needs to be female pilots'
8: Once gossips, 'wait let me back up'
9: Thotter gossips, 'that's silly yes.. what line is this?'
10: Once gossips, 'I'm just gonna fly'
11: Once gossips, 'man fuck that shit'
12: Once gossips, 'no you have to transfer to a bus'
13: Pix gossips, 'because you can sleep in the train?'
14: Once gossips, 'shit doesn't even make sense'
So, if I were going to go by what I saw there, I would think that Once was a complete cheapass that wanted to have sex with anything that moved. I think he may require a female to be involved, but not quite sure about that. If he can save money, he'll do anything. Admittedly, that's probably not that far from the truth, but do newbies really need to know about stuff like that? Also, why isn't this on an OOC channel instead of gossip?
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Keep in mind new players are usually nogos, conversations on gossip get metered based on who's online at the time, and the average newbie won't know about "gos and if they do know about it, are likely to be culturally ingrained enough and invested enough to deal with the personalities of the mud. Chances are if they know about "gos it's because I told them too. ;)
-Once
P.S. When I interview old players that left, the thing I most resoundingly hear as feedback is their distaste with the way certain experiences got neutered over the years in the interest of making the game "safe" or "fun for all". I can tone down the crassness on gossip, but honestly, this little Captain America "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" mindset is actually what I've seen turn people off time and time again. Instead of trying to water down the experience for all because of a few bad apples, we should incentivize the behavior we actually want to encourage (hence some of the talk of recruiting contests, etc).
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In addition... I think there's too much of a "development" atmosphere in 4d. Too much talk of testing, bad files, coding, or ideas to improve the mud. Whilst all very valid, it takes away from the feel of 4d being a game, rather than some open-source work in progress.
I would seriously suggest cutting back on the openness of development in 4d, and try to be IMMs in game, and leave the rest for behind the scenes, yknow?
Personally I think it is totally awesome that so many of out old players want to do something active about improving our game mechanics. Not just sit around at Recall griping about it, but making a genuine effort, doing advanced research, suggesting elaborate improvement plans etc. and also helping some of the ideas come true by practical work on the game - coding, building, bugfixing...
And I find it positively uplifting, that some of those that are putting most effort into the improvement movement are players that at one time or other were labelled "Troublemakers".
I have a hard time believing that our openness about wanting to improve the game would turn any new players off, in fact I believe that we have the open discussion to thank for much of the resurrection that the game has experienced. Let's not forget that about a year ago, 4D was practically dead, now we regularly peak around 15 players.
Still, Natalya has a point when it comes to lack of atmosphere and depth. I don't agree that a good way to deal with it would be removing some of the older zones however, even though I can admit that many of them are not up to our current standards. But I'd rather adress that in the same way that we have up till now - by systematically updating the oldest zones, adding more extra descs and quests to make them more interesting and renew the interest in those that don't get visited much nowadays.
Apart from that, I have to say that "depth" mostly must come from the players themselves, it's not something us imms can and will force down your throats.
If you dislike the tone on the open channels, try to improve it by setting better examples, and by not rising to obvious baits.
If you want more new players to stay, talk to them, help them, and try to involve them in the community whenever you see them.
If you want more everyday roleplay to happen, start out by roleplaying yourself, and try to drag others into the habit.
If you have ideas for some larger RP event, like some that we ran in the past, share the ideas with the staff, and we'll provide you with whatever support is needed, as long as it is within realistic frames.
In short - don't sit around waiting for others to do things.
10+ years of mudding have taught me that the best way to get things done, is to do them yourself.
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"Perhaps clearing up some of the older zones would be neat, and reworking the maps to force people into new territory may help some, but I think some people don’t like being forced to travel to new areas (probably about as much as some people dislike socials – aka: forced emotes). The story behind 4D would actually make for a great reason for areas to appear and disappear over time – the dimensional portals have shifted and suddenly new lands have emerged while old ones have been found. We could make it a regular thing to shift around areas, but then our website maps are virtually useless. *shrug*"
Well said. I really like the idea of shifting portals and whatnot, that's nifty.
"While I could agree with the less favoritism, it seems like you mean less IMM friendliness here. Which is something I have to disagree with. One of the reasons I stayed on 4D is because both Molly and Mordecai showed an honest interest personally when I (as a level 4(?) maybe newbie pointed out that there seemed to be a problem with the dogcart in the Old West section of the mudschool. I admit, I was awed (I was only level 4 or so and probably only been on the mud for a couple of hours and an IMM was answering my question personally) but it stuck with me to the point that this day (10+years later) I can still tell you that it was 1) Molly AND Mordecai and 2) the exact thing that happened. Their involvement that day made me realize that they cared enough to personally see to it. Though, I must admit that Mord probably thought I was a nag after that since every time I saw him I asked what was up with it."
I don't mean less niceness and friendliness, but I do mean take a step back a bit, and definitely less favouritism. The way I remember (maybe about 12 years ago), there was a line between mortals and immortals. There really was. And it helped the game environment. I know the players are 'supposed' to bring the environment, but the IMMs have a part in it too. And their role, as owners and runners of the mud, needs to show some boundaries too...
It's *great* that everyone wants to pitch in and help and grow the world, but the 'negative' effect of this is generally that people stop actually -playing- the game, and start -working- on it instead, and then eventually they stop doing that.
We don't really have much authority in 4D. There's not many set consequences to many actions. Some set rules or set flags don't even mean anything anymore. A game environment needs it's boundaries. If we have everything we want, what's the motivation to do anything else?
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"I admit, I thought of this the other day and realized that as a new player with a lot of the comments going on over gossip, I wouldn’t stay. I mean, really, if I was going to make my feelings known about the people with what they say over gossip, most of the players would probably think I hate them. I don’t. I do hate what’s said, but then it all falls under “freedom of speech” and “adult things”. But it also falls under the “don’t act like an ass” and “be mature about the freedom we give you.” Which wins? It’s also because of what’s going on over gossip that I want to finish all the projects I have going on the build port. Because, once I’m done there, I’ll feel free to move on to someplace else if it all keeps up (yes, I have considered just saying “hell with it” and drop all projects, but I’m not that type of person and I am more invested in this place than it sometimes seems. It seems to die down once in a while, but then we get people that start it up again. I understand that some people like that sort of thing, but there are also some that don’t and I wish we could give everyone a chance before we start pounding on them – or letting them into the “family secret” of rudeness and namecalling and other general abuse."
+1. I definitely wouldn't stay as a new player. I would think "Small playerbase, people talking shit over gossip, and no one leaving recall. Screw this, I'ma do something else". I'm not saying everyone would think this, but I'm sure at least some would.
-- RE Once's post...
Perhaps you're misunderstanding what's being said and attempting to change the argument. No one was suggesting a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" mindset, but some of the attitude on open channels - particularly when it's repeated over, and over and over, isn't going to encourage new players. Your spamming to insult and irritate people is just lame and doesn't help anything at all. You don't even roleplay any of it, so it's not an IC thing. Ever since this topic has come up, you've been repeatedly making comments and jokes about how you need to censor what you say and how to ZOMG NOT BE MEAN ON GOSSIP. It's that kind of pathetic attitude that just annoys people and degrades the environment.
You think you're helping Once, and I'm sure - in many ways you are. You used to be a great player. But now, all you do, is sit around at recall and talk and spam people, mainly to get reactions. If you want to help the game, why not try jump into it again. Many people would assist you getting started if you needed it, I'm sure. I could spare a few items even, perhaps.
Personally I think it is totally awesome that so many of out old players want to do something active about improving our game mechanics. Not just sit around at Recall griping about it, but making a genuine effort, doing advanced research, suggesting elaborate improvement plans etc. and also helping some of the ideas come true by practical work on the game - coding, building, bugfixing...
And I find it positively uplifting, that some of those that are putting most effort into the improvement movement are players that at one time or other were labelled "Troublemakers".
+1. I wasn't saying anything different, my apologies if it came across that way. I was trying to say, though, that the mud has a very "Open-source Project" feel to it, rather than feeling like it's a game to be played and delved into. Does that make any sense?...
"Apart from that, I have to say that "depth" mostly must come from the players themselves, it's not something us imms can and will force down your throats.
If you dislike the tone on the open channels, try to improve it by setting better examples, and by not rising to obvious baits.
If you want more new players to stay, talk to them, help them, and try to involve them in the community whenever you see them.
If you want more everyday roleplay to happen, start out by roleplaying yourself, and try to drag others into the habit.
If you have ideas for some larger RP event, like some that we ran in the past, share the ideas with the staff, and we'll provide you with whatever support is needed, as long as it is within realistic frames.
In short - don't sit around waiting for others to do things.
10+ years of mudding have taught me that the best way to get things done, is to do them yourself."
-- +1. :)