4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Virisin on June 13, 2008, 02:36:39 am
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Normal grouping: the grouping style of the old code. Experience is split evenly, there is a 'tank' that takes all the damage. Tank = most recent group member.
Pros: cool
Cons: encourages powerlevelling (this is kinda small though, as the playerbase is so small that powerlevelling isn't really such a big issue..)
Complex grouping: two people are leveling, the highest total tnl group member gets half of the total exp he would get if leveling by himself. Whatever percentage of his total experience to next level this is, is knocked off other group members total experience to next level.
Example: group member with the highest tnl gets half the exp he'd usually get solo. If this is 2% of his tnl, then all his group members get 2% off their tnl.
Pros: kinda cool
Cons: Erwin might reply with some cons...
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Complex grouping is basically Estidn's idea, and that prevents powerlevelling, but here are the cons.
-Groups have to go level from mobs around the highest player's level, that means there is an increased chance in getting hit and dying if there is a wide level difference, which leads to
-Players grouping around the same level.
-Boss mobs like Voltron won't be worth killing, if say, 75M xp gives only 12.5% of the highest player's TNL, and a lowbie priest gets only 25% of his TNL, which could be a mere 10-20M.
But..instead of the highest level player getting half of the total xp he would get if levelling himself, the formulae would be 0.50X + ( (number of PCs in a group -1) * 0.1)X, where X is the XP he would get if levelling by himself.
However, this formulae would only work if the mob's level <100. If the mob is > level 100, then the formulae for normal grouping applies.
*On second thought, I'd go for normal grouping...unless there is a formulae that accounts for experienced players showing newbies around zones with 'follow'. If you're passively in a group, and leading a newbie to kill low level mobs, and that newbie does all the damage, he should get all the XP.
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Normal grouping: the grouping style of the old code. Experience is split evenly, there is a 'tank' that takes all the damage. Tank = most recent group member.
Pros: cool
Cons: encourages powerlevelling (this is kinda small though, as the playerbase is so small that powerlevelling isn't really such a big issue..)
Yes, it does encourage powerleveling and evne though the playerbase is small, do we want something that, as the player base gets larger we have to go "Oh... now we can put in the REAL grouping system".
This also has the con that it encourages some players to be "lazy" and not learn the mud - choosing only to group with people that know their way around the mud. I'll admit to being "lazy" on another mud. I got to top level there (150 with weird remort system) with all the best eq (even stuff you had to put together - never got anything myself) and seriously only knew aboug 6 zones I could get to myself - and they weren't high level zones.
While in one way I love this system - with the tank and all - in another I dislike it. Reasons I love it is you can help newbies get a few "easy level" so the feel confident walking around the mud checking things out instead of being dumped out of mudschool and going "now where?" "What zones are 'my level'?"
I hate it because it leaves no chance of anyone getting hurt other than the tank. We talk about giving suggestions to make the mud more realistic and you can't tell me that with 4 people hitting a mob with melee weapons, only ONE of them can get hit? Please... Now having said that, I do think spellcasters - as long as they are casting spells - should be able to stand back and cast their attack spells without getting hit while someone else is the tank. I also think there should be flanking bonuses for more than one melee person attacking a mob, but that's probably another point if Mord doesn't already have something like that.
Kvetchy
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I see where you're coming from Kvetch, the idea of powerlevelling newbies up into twinks has never been an idea I like myself.. But I think powerlevelling is a sacrifice I'm willing to make to allow fun grouping again.
As for some of the other points you bring up, they come under combat on my to-do list. I'll get to combat eventually. :P
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do we want something that, as the player base gets larger we have to go "Oh... now we can put in the REAL grouping system".
I smell an optimist. Muds with incresing playerbase size? Those only exist if we call WoW a MUD...
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Now that I think about it my suggestion for grouping would be horribly abusable. So we should just go back to old grouping.
Example
A tier 4 level 49 warrior with 324590358 remorts go leveling with a tier 4 level 50 priest with 3 remorts. Need I continue?
Take 1mil for the priest to get 50%exptnl knocked off but the warrior ends up needing 3492180423exptnl to level gets knocked down by 50% which ends up being a shitload more exptnl knocked off.
Of course our coders can think of a way around this.
Example
The warrior can't gain more than the priest in exptnl
Example 2
Get rid of the sick exptnl that builds up from remorts :P
Honestly though I don't care which system gets implemented, I just want grouping back. Might get off my lazy butt and level then.
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Actually, it's the other way round..the warrior will get a tiny tiny fraction which is probably 0.005 percent of his XP, and the priest will get 0.005 percent of 1M knocked off. Not good.
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To attempt to help stop powerlevelling..
How about a level-range system for groups.
Say if the people in the group are outside a 5 or 10 level range of eachother, there will be an exp penalty. IE, no one gets experience points.
... Run with that idea perhaps? I have to head off else I'd try explain further.
*shrug* Not the greatest idea in the world anyway.
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I don't think that'd work. Might be worth a try but I think I'd rather just go with the old system for a while.
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I miss the old system too. It's part the reason I don't group.
That, and i never group with nat anyway due to rp.. but i do kinda miss hunting in groups.
maybe with a 10 level range exp penalty.. might be a compromise... the ability to hunt together and level up, without the major risk of powerlevelling - ie lvl 50 powerlevelling a lvl 1 noob.
grouping kinda adds some atmosphere too. Might sound silly, but i think it does anyway...
Ah I miss the old days :)
Yeah. Can we go back to the old group system?
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BTW, the level penalty system could be varied. Outside of 10 level range diff = a certain percentage of experience gets dropped.
Outside of 15 levels, a larger percentage of exp drop.
Outside of 20 level range, larger percentage drop.
so on and so forth. Perhaps outside of 40 level range diff means like 1exp point, if any at all.
But as long as you're inside of 10 levels of eachother, you can group and still get normal exp as you would alone, you just kill faster.
15 levels is still doable, just a tiny bit less exp per person.
.. get the idea?
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I miss the old system too. It's part the reason I don't group.
That, and i never group with nat anyway due to rp.. but i do kinda miss hunting in groups.
Awww.. comon, Nat. You could get a group of Vampires together to try and kill off some goody two shoes. That'd be some rp. Kinda like Underworld.. get some Vamps together and hunt down them Werewolves - or whoever the Vampire mortal enemy is that you decide. ;)
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Merr. With Natalya, Im all about doing things independantly. If you can't do something yourself, it's not worth doing, type deal.
Doesn't always work that well :p
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*nudge*
Whats happening with this. I just got told to bug the coders about grouping.
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*triple nudge*
Yeah, could something please be done about grouping soon?
I can understand some players wanting to go solo, but in general grouping is supposed to be fun and promote social interaction. And if the code puts too many penalties and restrictions on it, people just won't group any more, and that seems to be what's been happening in 4D.
I want grouping back to what it used to be, and I can even live with a bit of powerlevelling, if the alternative is that nobody groups. Especially now, when we seem to have picked up an unusual amount of new players, it would be nice if fixing grouping could be made a priority so that it encourages them to stay on and helps them being assimilated faster in the playerbase.
*pokes the coders*
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Also, not having your involvement percentages reset every five ticks would be great.
Perhaps it's just me, but I haven't been able to get ahold of anybody that groups to run it by them. :-\
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Hum. Bored + no sleep + camera. Hm.
Why not.
.....
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/vetteh/heycoders.jpg?t=1214365178)
.......
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/vetteh/fixgrouping.jpg)
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;) Cute.
But really, she's right.
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Hey!!! Where's your fangs? I wanna see some fang!
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I do actually have vampire fangs. I dont know why I didnt think to put them in :/
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*runs away from all of the whips flying at him!*
I'm kinda of torn on this as well. I know from experience the even split is power leveling that is how Fiachra got a couple remorts or so when he started.
I kinda like the idea of an mob hitting another member in the group to discourage taking newbie to really high level zones. I don't mean all the time be make it random percentage.
Prometheus
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Perhaps make this random percentage increase as the (difference between the mob's level and the lowest level in the party) increase, to a cap of say, 20%.
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Well why not just start the change by making it an even divide. Let some newbies enjoy the experience of powerlevelling like many of us older players have experiienced and i'm sure have enjoyed! Those power levelling groups sure as hell didnt make us hate the mud, like o no! I got some levels for free, doing minimal work, I'm so upset, I think I'm going to leave! Heh it'll always be the exact opposite, we are a mud that thrives on zone exploration and questing, we arent hack and slash... so bring some excitement and enjoyability back to levelling which group levelling didnt exist back when i was a newbie i may not have stuck around because that was what made the mud fun when i hadnt yet gotten into doing quests and finding that enjoyable. The more levels helped making exploration better in turn made my experience good all around.
Better yet with this change, it might make getting through tier 4 easier until we get a full list of the trainers, dimension and zone for alll skills and spells.
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Shutup fool.
Also, the problem with powerlevelling is that it gives us high level twinks, rather than just normal newbies. If everyone goes around powerlevelling everyone, none of our new players will have the know-how they would have if they'd got to the level on their own.
Anyway, I'm willing to make that sacrifice for better grouping.
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Did you tell me to shutup and then agree with me?
But I could also see scaling the hp of mobs all around in all the higher levelling levels zones. To making grouping prefered otherwise kiilling mobs solo would just take longer. Maybe even have the zones like pre-forest and dark planet hit harder if someone is by themselves, but if you go in a group there's a main tank and they take less damage as to the fact they intimidate the mob ;)
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So I should have a bunch of level 3 tier 1 players join me when I fight dinosaurs because then the dinosaur'd be intimidated? I'd be more intimidated of the lone human who has the balls to attack a dinosaur myself.
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yeah, it's more along the lines of you are a dinosaur just standing around doing what you do, then you see a group of 6 people approaching you compared to one person approaching you, you'd be more intimidated by the group as a opposed to the one. The one by themselves either has a deathwish or believes themselves to be more dangerous in a situation as this.
but really, mord did say he was going to add like a toggle to test this group exp divided equally for a month see how it works then switch it back. He did approve of it because it worked back in the day, so why not make it happen?
Also just make those higher xp mobs harder to kill, making it so you can kill them easy in groups for good xp or just take a lot more time to kill it solo and get better xp. Grouping would be more fun as you get to socialize compared to mindlessly killing by yourself. Anyone agree?
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I don't agree with you because it's you talking. But it was my idea, I agree with myself.
I just think it's about time grouping was trialed as it was on the old code.
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Bah *bonks Virisin*. The point is to agree with ideas, not people.
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I'm new, so I don't really know how anything works, but from my very basic understanding, something like:
(xp gained) * (((lowest playerlevel*(remorts+1))/(highest playerlevel*(remorts+1)))
would give you the sort of sliding scale that was earlier suggested.
This isn't perfect, of course. I don't know if it reflects the benefit of remorts after GM level because, well, I don't know what the benefits of remorts after GM ARE. :)
We'll see how many times I can edit this post =) Edit count: 6
Another option, after reading Molly's post about grouping, would be
the above formula * ((5 - player's Tier) / ((highest player's Tier - player's Tier) + 1))
This would have the scaling effect from above, but would reward low-tier players for playing in groups, and give lesser rewards for mid-Tier players grouping.
This could potentially make multiclass characters advance significantly faster in groups than specialists, depending on how you counted tiers. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on which one you are =)
I should mention that all of this is based on a grand total of 7 hours playtime (half AFK), so this will have to be seasoned to taste.
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Regarding mob targeting in groups, the first thought that comes to me (outside of a full-blown threat system, which would suck to code and probably break the server's brain) is to associate a percentage chance to become the mob's target for each skill. These could be simple, like heal having a flat 50% chance to change targeting, or something more complex related to the effectiveness of the skill.
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If my recent posts haven't already shown this, I have a lot of free time at work to think about this sort of stuff. I know some (not a lot) of C++, and I've got a pretty solid grasp of programming concepts and efficiency. I pick up syntax quickly as well. I could work on this during my downtime at work, if that's going to help people. I can't connect to the MUD at work (port 6000 blocked =/) but if I had the source as text in one (or a few) email(s), I could work on writing some potential changes for more experienced people to review.
Edit: Looked around the site a bit more, and it looks like there's kind of an unspoken progression from builder->scripter->coder, so my expectations for this have been significantly diminished =)
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Hmm.. you don't have to build to code. Ask Thotts... Prometheus... Na.. umm.. Fizban. Though knowing how to script (which is something you usually do when building) is a plus, I'm sure, though I seem to remember that Prom's not too good at scripting, but he's been doing pretty good at coding. (or at least he wasn't as he was learning about the same time I was.)
Kvetchy
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Cool, thanks...I'll try to catch one of them this weekend. During the week, they're only on when I'm at work =/
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With grouping there has always been a group of players who powerlevel, these players then get to max level and suddenly realise that they nothing about the game and leave, no loss there really, but you did have one extra player for X months, or they start to realise this and they choose to explore and learn and then make a new character to start from scratch with and then move through the game learning as they go and catching up on the stuff they missed out on with their first run through. Other players weather we have fixed grouping or not will choose to do very limited grouping to no grouping as that is their choice, at the moment with grouping the way it is there is no choice you go solo or put in the time and effort if you can convince another player to group with you for no real return.
Most here played when grouping was fun and the mud was fun now - no grouping = no fun and it is showing, more and more time just spent idling at recall as well what else is there to do yes can go do a run here or a run there but its not the same as having other people with you killing enmass laying waste to the realms because of no other reason then we can.
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Looks like it needs improving.
I have been working on it.
It will need some test situations to make the grouping just right.
But I am changing it so that combat isn't the only way you gain exp
At this stage, there will be an exp pool for support, and exp pool for fighting.
I have a clever way of doing it but, it will need help with testing it.
This is the basis of it:
Support acts will include all non-direct combat techniques, and healing, buffing, etc.
You will have 2x EXP Pools, one for gaining through support, the other for gaining through fighting.
So the player will have two EXP meters.
For example, currently to reach level 5, you need to have gained 349k EXP.
In this proposed system, your level will be based off the exp meter with the most exp in it.
So if you have 350k exp in your support exp pool.
And you have 90k exp in your combat exp pool.
You will be level 5.
If you heal your charmie and have it tank for you, you will gain support exp and reduce your TNL based on support exp.
Your combat exp will stay low.
If you want to change and start leveling through directly fighting, you can.
But obviously you will be gaining based on the combat exp pool, so you will need to first gain the difference between the two exp types, to take yourself to the next level.
So really, it will make it easier for people who focus on support, to stay as support the whole time, and visa versa, rather than switching between the two.
Obviously, once you are at level 50, it won't matter, since you aren't needing to gain more levels.
Now, one of the tests we need to do once the code is in, is start measuring how long it takes each class currently, alone, to get from level 1 to 20, then from 20 to 30, then 30 to 40, and 40 to 50.
Based on that time span, we will balance the support exp system, so that the general time will be similar.
I see this as supporting grouping in general, because it will remove competition of the combat exp from the tank.
So the tank and supporters can gain the combat exp split between them.
And same with the support people.
Based on this, skills in your skill list that count towards support will be indicated with a different colour than combat skills.
Anyway, early days yet.
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We also need to make sure group spells work as well or tweak the way group spells work. I know that priests are going to want group spells working again.
Prometheus.
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What was wrong with the old code? Too much fellowshipping going on? :o The best roleplaying of my youngling days were whilst camping for respawn. Beefiest hunters too. So I'm pretty much excited about whatever you guys cook up that'll help. Kitolani will always be a fledgling here because of her resistance to playing casters. Casters fail. It will be nice to have group support for grinding, so we can focus on more exicting things like roleplay and the uniquely fabulous questing system here.
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The reason is that casters don't get any experience for casting healing spells. Mord is wanting to make sure priests can be useful in a group and make it worth using up the mana for their spells.
Prometheus.
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I know. What Mord says about making support classes gain exp by buffing, healing, whatever is a fantastic idea. It didn't all come together in a manner that made any solid sense in my mind with the two seperate pools, but it isn't very uncommon to find me befuddled in such matters. Where's Virisin when you need a translation of Mordecai's schemes? ???
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Just please don't make it too complicated!
We need a change and we need it now.
Grouping is not just an exp issue, it's also the basis for social interaction in the Mud, and making it too complex will rather deter people from using it than encourage it.
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I agree with Molly. It used to work as it was before, the group leader apportioning exp to be gained to each member of the party, 100% that would be split as they saw fit. So who really minds if people get power levelled any more? Certainly it used to be a bit of a bug bear to the dedicated players that didn't enjoy seeing newbies levelled up to tier 3 or so within a couple of days. But things have changed now. The player base has dropped and that feeling of cameraderie that was prevalent has vanished along with the players. Looking back at previous posts on this subject, it seems this thread on grouping has been going on for so long that a simple option should just be instigated with haste. Even if it is only a temporary fix whilst a more intricate code is worked upon for the next few months (which it will surely take to enable it to be balanced and not buggy), I would vote to just make it possible for players just to group and get on with enjoying the MUD. Don't let the place languish any longer, slowly choking while a new system gets tweaked and perfected. Get the newbies in, get them hooked by levelling them up enough for them to feel they can survive solo when nobody else is on to group with, that way they can start hitting and enjoying the questing side of the mud which is what makes 4d so unique after all.
Just my thoughts...
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How about this as step one then:
- exp gets split between all people who just hit a mob, not based on how much damage they did.
- Involvement is always even between group members
- mob damage doesn't get split among the group, but instead only hits 1 person
- Chance to land an attack won't be affected by involvement any more, your group members won't get in your way.
Those are easy changes to do, and will bring it pretty close to the original system.
I have a feeling that this won't be the magic bullet though, but we will see.
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Ya.. good first step IMO.
Kvetchy
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I agree, please get it in fast.
Lately the pbase seems to have picked up a bit, so let's try to ride on the surge by making the game a bit more social and fun.
I don't think even the ones that objected the most in the past really care about potential powerlevelling any more. There seems to be a concensus that we need a change back here. We probably need to be a bit less anal about quests as well.
And honestly - is powerlevelling such a big deal? I got powerlevelled a lot in my old playing days, and I bet most of our older players did too, especially with their alts.
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My only problem with powerleveling would be the T4/L50 person that is at recall and asks "How do I get to Olde Yorke" and means it because all they've done is follow people from recall. But we need this grouping system in, even if it does cause this.
Kvetch
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That's the beauty of 4d. You can be a t4/L50 and still be eaten alive out in the real world if you aren't paying attention. No amount of powerleveling can substitute throuroughly investigating the realms. In fact, since a lot of the places I've chosen to explore end up with high level mobs that eat my face, being a higher tier/level would encourage exploration rather than hinder it.
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Little off topic to respond to Noinar question.
You don't need to be a builder to code. Scripting helps with people who have questions with scripting and it helps if you need to code something for dg scripts. I never build or scripted to code. But right now with 4 coders I'm not sure we need another coder but that isn't my realm.
Prometheus.
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How about this as step one then:
- exp gets split between all people who just hit a mob, not based on how much damage they did.
- Involvement is always even between group members
- mob damage doesn't get split among the group, but instead only hits 1 person
- Chance to land an attack won't be affected by involvement any more, your group members won't get in your way.
Those are easy changes to do, and will bring it pretty close to the original system.
I have a feeling that this won't be the magic bullet though, but we will see.
These changes are now in.
Please let me know how many people are loving grouping now.
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Here are some things to know:
Before this code change, the EXP that a mob distributed when it died to each player as based on the portion of damage that player did compared to the total damage that the mob received from all sources.
This meant that if a mob with 600 exp, took 1000 damage from poison, and 1000 damage from walking in to a trap, and you did 8000 damage to it too, and it died.
You would receive (8000/(1000+1000+8000)) * 600 = 500 Exp
Now in this new system, because exp is split evenly between everything that deals damage to a mob, including poison, traps, and charmies.
This means that if this same mob with 600 exp, took 1000 damage from poison, and 1000 damage from walking in to a trap, and you did 8000 damage to it too, and it died.
You would receive (600/3) = 200 Exp
But it also means that you gain an even portion of exp from your group, for doing any amount of damage to a mob.
I have taken some suggestions from players that poison does very low amounts of damage in proportion to the exp it takes.
There are two solutions to this:
Either change the way poison damage works, so that it counts as damage done by a player. (I don't like this idea personally because it is easy to abuse, just run in a place with lots of mobs, and poison them all, and flee or retreat)
Or
Increase the amount of damage poison does, to make it worth the exp you invest in using it.
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Increasing the amount of damage poison does would be a great idea, but make it do a different amount of damage in comparison to whether the victim be npc or pc. You do want to be poison 4'd and die in 1 second. But I find that idea to be the better of the two.