4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Mordecai on May 05, 2008, 06:35:02 pm
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Can I have some feedback on this idea:
Issue:
- There are a lot of skills people don't use regularly, if at all.
- WIS as a stat is under utilised.
- Many old players have an unbalanced advantage because of their skills, namely GM's.
- People don't know how to use all the skills they have anyway.
Concept example:
a timestamp can be added to skills to record the last time they were used in the code.
If a skill goes unused for a week (or alternatively, a certain number of hours online), you loose between 1 and 7% learned in that skill.
The amount that you lose would be dependant on your WISDOM.
Where: 22 WIS = 1% loss and 15 WIS or less = 7% loss.
Non action skills (eg: hand-to-hand), and skills that are pre-req's would get updated as their child skills get used.
Every 5% of a skill you 'forgot' you could gain 1 practice point in return.
Additionally, this would also allow skills and spells in the practice list to be highlighted if they get used regularly, and made darker if they haven't been used in a while.
A sort of 'heatmap' as to your skill usage.
The goal of this idea being that:
- Unused skills on people would fade out, and allow for the skills they do use to become better.
- So that people wouldn't maintain skills they didn't use.
- So that skills were more of a commodity, by reducing the frequency of their occurrence in the 4d population.
- So that it provides scope for the coders to make skills comparatively better then they are now, because not all players will have all skills.
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The next step:
Firstly:
Currently the max learned on all skills/spells is 97% learned each.
Example of a balanced change to this:
Taking the total number of your skills, say 30 if you are a Warrior.
So, lets say that a skill is a 'bucket' that can hold 97 units of 'learned' (each unit being 1% in a skill).
And, you have a total potential % to learn of 30 x 97 = 2910 x units of 'learned', is the max for all skill buckets.
Then, putting a limit on that total potential of say 75%, you would only get 2182 x units of 'learned' to fill your 'buckets' with.
Giving you more skill 'buckets' potential space than you have units of 'learned'.
So for every skill you learned up to 97%, another skill could only be learned to 53%.
Benefit of this would be:
- Provides a good reason for wanting to forget skills that you don't use.
- Players could have more strategy in selecting what skills they learn, and in turn having those skills give them an advantage based on the forward planning they did.
- Reduces the 'overpowered' GM's, because they would also need to choose their specific skills more wisely, and not just be uber in all classes T1 and T2 skills.
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I like this.
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Seconded.
Maybe a 'forget' command as well?
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Don't like.
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I love this.
Would make for more unique and specialized players and definitely reward use that think tactically in their choices of classes and skills.
It also provides an easy way for a player to rectify a bad choice, by just forgetting that skill and concentrating on others. (I assume that they will be able to train up a skill that they have forgotten again later if they choose)?
I also like the part where you highlight the skills that are in use.
Would it even be possible to have a sort of 'scale' from 1-5? For instance the colour turning from white - blue - green - yellow - red, or different shades of green, using a more advanced colour code?
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This is really just adding to the time that must be spent on leveling and doing boring repetitive crap. I really don't like the idea for the mere fact that you now have to find the person for all your spells/skills. And I really just think it's taking away from people who don't have hours to devote to 4d at a time.
Secondly I think you should be able to see what skills/spells the trainer teaches.
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I love this.
Would make for more unique and specialized players and definitely reward use that think tactically in their choices of classes and skills.
It also provides an easy way for a player to rectify a bad choice, by just forgetting that skill and concentrating on others. (I assume that they will be able to train up a skill that they have forgotten again later if they choose)?
I also like the part where you highlight the skills that are in use.
Would it even be possible to have a sort of 'scale' from 1-5? For instance the colour turning from white - blue - green - yellow - red, or different shades of green, using a more advanced colour code?
Yes, I would make it 3 colors for basic players. Bright green, for recently used skills, dark green for skills that haven't been used in a 'week', and plain white for skills that haven't been used in a month.
For players that have gmud, or zmud, or any other client with MXP support, we could have a full scale of shades as it moves from light to dark.
And yes, it will be easy enough to use a skill again to start gaining it again through use, or going to a trainer and practicing.
Personally I like the way that skills could be made more powerful, because you can't have as many each one will mean more.
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Maybe a 'forget' command as well?
Yeah, I had a think about it, and I like that as an idea.
Clear a skill of all learned, and quickly recover 1 prac point per 5% of skill learned you wiped.
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Secondly I think you should be able to see what skills/spells the trainer teaches.
You can, you go up to a trainer and type: prac skills or prac spells
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Um Mord, I think Estidn means to see all the skills/spells that the trainer teaches.
If I'm a class that can't learn particular skill/spell, typing practice skills or practice spells will result in something like
Professor Grotefend can teach you the following skills:
You don't know any!
Professor Grotefend can teach you the following spells:
You don't know any!
Perhaps a command that can show all the skills/spells a trainer teaches?
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Um Mord, I think Estidn means to see all the skills/spells that the trainer teaches.
If I'm a class that can't learn particular skill/spell, typing practice skills or practice spells will result in something like
Professor Grotefend can teach you the following skills:
You don't know any!
Professor Grotefend can teach you the following spells:
You don't know any!
Perhaps a command that can show all the skills/spells a trainer teaches?
Oh, sure. :)
I will get that in right away.
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Yay, good idea.
I've always liked the idea of players forgetting skills/spells if they arn't used.
I also think it'd be good because if you as a coder looked at the skills, and say; Forage was white on EVERY players list.. We could remove the skill and add something better.
I like it.
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I would like to request that you rethink this particular part of your idea:
Quote -
"If a skill goes unused for a week (or alternatively, a certain number of hours online), you loose between 1 and 7% learned in that skill. The amount that you lose would be dependant on your WISDOM. Where: 22 WIS = 1% loss and 15 WIS or less = 7% loss."
When I started on 4D, I had no idea about GM or that I would have to remort through all the classes. I had no idea much about anything. I just wanted to be a ranger, so I set my stats to be really high in con and dex and strength and low in int and wis. Maybe not a wise idea in hindsight.
If wisdom will now determine losses in skills, my wisdom is so low that I'll lose huge percentages in skills EVEN if I use them regularly. This seems to be giving an advantage to magical classes who would probably chose and equip themselves with int and wis stuff, and to experienced players who know to make a more balanced skill set between con, int, wis, dex, str to start with.
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Good point, I will have a think about that issue and get back to this thread.
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I'm all for the second part of your idea (bucketthing), but I have a problem with skills being degraded if they're not used. Not every player in this mud, comes here to constantly kill mobs, but come here to socialize, keep in contact with friends, or do other things that doesn't involve skills or spells. And now you'll 'reward' those people by lowering their knowledge of a skill because they prefer to focus on other things instead of spamming skills and spells all the time?
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Hesara does have a point there, I didn't think of that myself. Trading and Questing are for instance time consuming activities that we promote as an alternative to hack'n'slash.
So maybe it would be better to go for Erwin's idea instead; actively 'forgetting' the skills you don't use. The rest of the concept would still be good.
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Aww.... they can make a second character to talk. :P
The reason I like this idea is because in real life (yeah, I know, this ain't real life) if you don't use a skill constantly, you're going to be worse at it than someone that does. As you use skills less, you tend to forget certain little things about the skill that made you better at it than someone else. Just so this "forgetting" process is only during online time and not offline time, I have no problem with it.
Kvetchy
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So even though, you just need to use the skill to keep it 'active', once a week or so, that would be over the top for some people you think?
It is a hardline measure, but my feeling is that it would increase the activity of some people just a little.
- Move them from afk at recall to go mount a horse, or find a tree to woodsing, or manifest a weapon.
- Have people log in to the game at least once a week to do these things, to maintain their character, and as a side effect, see what is happening on the game and perhaps stay a little longer then they would have normally.
Maybe a longer period, like 2 weeks, before it degrades, and have a smaller percentage loss, like between 1 and 4%.
Even so, I don't think using a skill or spell once per week is 'spamming it all of the time' hehe.
But you do make a good point, what ideas could you offer towards a comprimise in this, towards the goal of:
Flushing out unused skills
Having people use skills they don't use that frequently, to become more familiar with them, and perhaps increase their popularity.
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The other thing that could happen is, your ability to get better at a skill through use of that skill could be made more frequent.
So if for example your backstab skill was at 1%, and you somehow made a successful backstab, you could suddenly gain like 12% in that skill.
But as your level of skill increased, the % gain would drop, and become far more infrequent.
Also, for skills that involve a victim, if you are the victim of a skill or spell, that you have the ability to learn, then based perhaps on your INT, you could have a chance of increasing your level of knowledge in that skill or spell.
For example, if you where a thief and you had 1% in backstab, and a mob backstabbed you, you might gain 5% in backstab.
Or if you were a priest with 1% in heal, and someone healed you, you might gain 5% in heal.
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If wisdom will now determine losses in skills, my wisdom is so low that I'll lose huge percentages in skills EVEN if I use them regularly. This seems to be giving an advantage to magical classes who would probably chose and equip themselves with int and wis stuff, and to experienced players who know to make a more balanced skill set between con, int, wis, dex, str to start with.
Simple
if skills then dexterity
if spells then wisdom
OR
Advanced
if skills then (strength+dexterity+constitution==x) [where x ==> 68-71, 1%; 64-67, 2% etc. Let 22/20= 23, 22/40 = 24 etc.]
if spells then (intelligence+wisdom==x) [where x ==> 43-44, 1%]
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If wisdom will now determine losses in skills, my wisdom is so low that I'll lose huge percentages in skills EVEN if I use them regularly. This seems to be giving an advantage to magical classes who would probably chose and equip themselves with int and wis stuff, and to experienced players who know to make a more balanced skill set between con, int, wis, dex, str to start with.
I have no clue where Iwku got this idea. Your wisdom wouldn't determine how frequently you had to use the skills, it'd determine how fast hey would lower WHEN you didn't use them.
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Now that we have the choose command in, it will lower the pressure on this issue of having chosen the wrong stats to start with, as older players can help newer players to choose their stats. But I wouldn't mind being able to pay something to change base stats whenever..
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Now that we have choose in, it should semi-sort out this issue, as older players can help newer players to choose their stats. But I wouldn't mind being able to pay something to change base stats whenver..
We have talked about allowing everyone to rechoose their stats.
Now the other thing is, it could even be set to be adjusted again after every 2 masteries, or something.
What's your ideas on that folks, especially imms?
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I'm OK with allowing players to change their stats, as long as they are kept within a total limit.
I think it should only be allowed at certain occasions however, for instance at Tire 4 of a Class, and there should also be a fee for it in TPs. (We can discuss the amount later). I'm also not sure whether they should be allowed to change stats more than once for each char. That's another thing we should discuss.
Ideally it should work like this, to avoid the imms getting spammed with requests for stat changes:
1. The player type a command, for instance 'change stats'.
2. If the player is too low Tier, this returns a message saying 'You need to be tire 4 to change your stats'.
Otherwise it brings the message: 'The fee for this is X TP', and deducts the amount from their account, if they have enough, otherwise sends a message that they need more TP to do it.
3. If they have enough TP they get sent to a room or prompt similar to the way they choose their stats in the Chargen.
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Yeah, it'd need a command. Like players being able to use the choose code to alter their stats at certain times, providing they paid. I think it'd be better while at tier 1 of a class, so you can customise yourself to that class before you start mastering it.
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Yah, I'm not sure where I got that idea either Fizban. I see now that you only have to practice each skill once a week and there will be a mechanism to let you know if you haven't practiced enough - rather than the skills just slowly dissolving and disappearing. I guess my concern was if I went on vacation for 3 weeks, or whatever, and couldn't log on, I'd lose 21% of my skills with such a low wisdom.
I've been re-reading the posts and I'm starting to warm to all the ideas. I like things how they are, and don't really like change...but you all put so much thought into it, that I'll trust your judgement.
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Come to think of it, will 'passive' skills like parry, hand-to-hand, advanced melee, melee decrease as well?
If I remember what Mord said earlier back on, some passive skills like hand-to-hand has a chance to increase if the skills that are dependant on it increases, else it won't increase at all.
That way, what happens if let's say, for example, your backstab is maxed, and the hand-to-hand skill 'degenerates' in a week..does that mean hand-to-hand doesn't get a chance to increase at all, because your backstab is already at maximum level, hence no chance for it to rise back?
I'm not sure, my backstab has dropped to 90+ percent, and doesn't seem to be able to increase, I guess that would be due to hand-to-hand's level, since that is the only precursor skill that hasn't been maxed at 97. But my hand-to-hand isn't increasing, is that because backstab (which has hand to hand as a pre req) can't be increased without hand-to-hand being increased which leads to backstab not being able to increase which leads to ......? Not very sure.
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Come to think of it, will 'passive' skills like parry, hand-to-hand, advanced melee, melee decrease as well?
If I remember what Mord said earlier back on, some passive skills like hand-to-hand has a chance to increase if the skills that are dependant on it increases, else it won't increase at all.
That way, what happens if let's say, for example, your backstab is maxed, and the hand-to-hand skill 'degenerates' in a week..does that mean hand-to-hand doesn't get a chance to increase at all, because your backstab is already at maximum level, hence no chance for it to rise back?
I'm not sure, my backstab has dropped to 90+ percent, and doesn't seem to be able to increase, I guess that would be due to hand-to-hand's level, since that is the only precursor skill that hasn't been maxed at 97. But my hand-to-hand isn't increasing, is that because backstab (which has hand to hand as a pre req) can't be increased without hand-to-hand being increased which leads to backstab not being able to increase which leads to ......? Not very sure.
You bring up two good points Erwin which I have paraphrased below for clarification:
Q: Would passive skills (Like parry, and hand-to-hand) degenerate over time, since there is no set way to 'use' them?
A: Parry isn't a passive skill, it is an automatic skill, and therefore gets used randomly but automatically.
Hand-to-hand is a passive skill, and would be 'used' when any of its child skills, such as backstab were used.
Q: My passive pre-req's have stopped increasing since I maxed out the active child skills, how will this work with the new system?
A: What I will need to do, is have skill pre req's continue to be checked, even after the skill has been maxed, and maybe at a slightly more favorable rate. (I think at the moment the chance is 1 in 10000).
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So you are all aware, the skill level you see in your practice lists is governed by prerequisites.
For example:
If you backstab skill is at 97%
but your hand-to-hand was at 80%
The total percent that shows up for backstab in the prac list is the average of the skills:
((backstab + hand-to-hand) / 2) = ((97 + 80) / 2) = 88.5%
So if you increase your pre-req skills, your other skills that use those pre-req's will increase too.
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Just to make sure I understand this. If you practice a skill and you don't lose it or will you completely lose the skill? I mean if you have forage at 13 percent and don't use it much would it eventually go to unlearned? I think that skills should degrade to 1%. And with the trainers all over the place not everyone is going to want to go hunting around for skills they forgot. I like the forget command if you never use a skill but I think once you practice it you should remember it a little. It is kind of like riding a bike. Once you learn you never completely unlearn it. I could ride a bike again but it would take me a couple of tries since it has been god a long time since I rode a bike but I could ride a bike again.
Prometheus.
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I dont like the skills/spells degrading unless once you practice them, even if you remort you still will know it when you go back to the class just with whatever rate it degraded at lower percentage. That way you don't have to be constantly retraining skills/spells