4Dimensions Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Kvetch on September 24, 2009, 05:07:42 pm
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I keep trying to figure out why, with how 4D is - great personalized, non-stock areas, great quests, great scripts, great almost everything - why don't we have a great playerbase? For how 4D is, we should have people crawling out of the woodwork to play. I know, I know, everyone's going to those graphic games like WoW and.. erm.. others.. but seriously, that's not all of it. We offer quit a bit of stuff that other muds don't, but why do they still have players while we don't?
I think I got my answer to that over the last couple of days. It started when a level 39 newbie self-deleted. Thankfully he created and logged in another character and let me know why he felt he needed to self delete (he said he thought I was nice so he wanted to let me know) and then proceeded afterwards to delete that character. This is the same player that just days earlier had left the IMM's a note about how good he felt the mudschool was and that he'd not seen a better quest system. As much as he liked the place, he felt he had to self-delete. And if he felt that way, what about others that don't feel that strongly about it?
The answer to the question is that the players need to look at themselves for why we can't keep new players. New players don't know secrets like run into a room and sit down so you don't get pushed from the room (btw: if I can help it, I will be getting a !push script on Recall just because of this - recall is for everyone, if you don't like it, you don't have to stay at recall. Most of you have your own houses that I'm sure would like some attention).
A helper's job is to help newbies and give the rewards that the newbies earn that are part of the helper's job catagory - like the reward for newbie vouchers. The helper's job is not to try to "teach" the newbie a lesson on the value of tokens that he or she has legally owned by keeping the tokens for themselves for any length of time. To me, that is abuse of the Helper's power. By all means, teach the newbie the value of tokens by telling them what they can buy for it (or send them to the website and tell them to look at the priceguide which also lists what they can get).
Try making a female character once during a time where there are quite a few male characters on. See how long it takes before you are "hit on" multiple times - almost to the point of harrassment. Actually, sometimes it is TO the point of harrassment. Please stop asking newbie female characters to type: "seduce <your character name here>". I fell victim to that myself and I can tell you that even if it is a character, it is still wrong. You do feel a bit used (and stupid for actually listening to someone that has been in the game for longer than you - and you wonder why I trust no-one these days), much as if you'd been used that way in RL (yeah, it's only a game, I get a bit attached to my characters - sue me). When it happened to me, I did consider quitting. Why would I want to stay on a game where the players were so childish to do that to a new player? Personally, I think the romance code shouldn't work for players that haven't remoted at least once. By that time hopefully they've learned a little bit about the characters/people in the game.
If a newbie is causing a scene and you feel it's gone too far, please see an immort if one is currently logged in. As with the level 39 player that self-deleted, I really feel bad because I was actually logged in, but I had no idea what was going on until after he'd decided to delete. I can't help if you don't tell me there's a problem. I can't sit at recall every night "just in case" though you'll probably see me more there now that you have for a very long time. I take offense at newbies being mistreated on my watch so now I'll just watch everyone.
I really hope you'll think about this the next time you see a new player and react accordingly. If we want to build a playerbase, we have to let them learn about us (as characters) as much as they have to learn about the game. But let's not scare them away right away by the above actions.
Kvetch
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Helpers are there to help in a NON-biased way. If any helper can't be non-biased then I will be giving said helper an boot out of helpers. Or at least ask another helper to take over if you have an issue with an newbie.
Prometheus.
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Or at least note Prometheus with what is going on. Or if you see another immortal on-line talk to them about it.
Prometheus
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I think one of the biggest things you need to remember is that this whole issue was not in fact a helper issue. It was a HERO issue vs. an unruly player who refused to adhere to warnings given not once, but multiple times, and not just by a hero but the other players within recall.
Mudding is a privilege, not a right. The same goes for Recall. If you cannot act like a civil human being, then you do not belong in recall where others who wish to interact humanly are. That is how it works. Clan halls have their own portals to the dimensions, so use them. The balls of HERO's have been cut, and the troublemaker knew that, and mocked it. How else should a hero act in the moment after multiple verbal warnings are given? A couple pushes should suffice. Don't wanna get pushed? Sit down like the rest of us have had to for over 10+ years.
Keeping newbies isn't hard at all so long as the game remains interesting to them, and our player base is constant enough to prevent loneliness form setting in. We are consistently going the extra 10 miles for newbies. However, we shouldn't stand for those who log on with the sole purpose to abuse the senior/new playerbase. That is now how you start your time with us. 4D has and will always remain about family. We love our drama, but we also love how the drama ends and we move on. Those who wish to only destroy what we have going there are nothing but air suckers that are not needed. Questing potential is at the bottom of the list when looking for players.
For 4D to remain as it has always been, we need GENUINE players with a certain quality. We didn't "lose" anything but a potential headache. That is my experienced opinion on the whole matter. The matter has been largely blown out of proportion, and I think that certain uppers and a particular player involved in blowing this whole thing up and forgotten the most important point:
I am a HERO first.
That is all I have to say on the matter now.
As for this !push script in recall. I think it's ridiculous, and un-needed. It has never existed, and should never exist. Why is it one waste of KB managed to cause such a ripple when we have had hundred of other cases of pushing out of recall in the past? Molly has always believed that issues amongst the players should remain within the players. Why are we seeing such "intervention"? Recall belongs to the playerbase as far as I am concerned, not the IMMs. I may be wrong, and am happy to be corrected by Molly whom I have great respect for. I'd like to think I know her by now, but then again I learn something new everyday :)
So, I implore you to remove the !push script. Players should not have to leave recall because of one jerk. the jerk should leave recall because the players said go. More importantly, the HERO said go.
Finally, I would implore you to also type help hero from time to time and remember why I have it. What it is I take so seriously, and why it is important. Hero was created to alleviate the workload of IMMs. Molly tries to stay out of player/clan business as much as possible, this is why HERO's in general exist. To set the standards created by what rules we do have, and to help keep the peace. With all do respect, if I were you I would do well to remember the intent behind the creation of HERO, and realize that I was only doing my job with what I had at the time. A simple silence for 5min would have been fine with me followed by a report saying 'I silenced this guy for this and this reason for 5min'. We would have all lived, and he would have seen how serious we are. I am all about zero tolerance when it comes to outlandish bad behavior. Harassment, sexual or otherwise is not tolerated. We need to remember that there are human beings behind the keyboard. Yes, we are a game. Yes, we all need thick skin at times. No, we do not have to stand for abuse of any kind nor disrespect regardless of the medium used (in our case, the internet).
You may not agree, but this is how I run things IRL as well. I am a leader of soldiers, and I take it very seriously even if I only work in a hospital. We are adults, and should act thus. Respect of others should be uppermost in our minds, and we should always uphold the standards.
Yours truly,
Tocharaeh D'Araesth
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oh, and real quick- because apparently certain people haven't ever taken an english course (not an english as a second language course, so you swedish friends of mine are not targeted in this), my post does NOT say I get to choose who gets to play or not. I am merely here to help enforce the rules and standards already set by the IMPs. that is all. Nothing more, nothing less.
-toch
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We didn't "lose" anything but a potential headache. That is my experienced opinion on the whole matter.
Opinion [uh-pin-yuhn]
–noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
So based on your opinion, you decided someone was likely to be a problem in the future - so treating him badly, causing him to delete?
It was a HERO issue
The balls of HERO's have been cut
I am a HERO first.
More importantly, the HERO said go.
the intent behind the creation of HERO
I agree, the 'hero' is the issue here.
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Please take the personal quarrel off the Forum boards.
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This thread is about keeping new players, and the behaviour of unnamed older players; some that are given the responsibility to help and encourage new players so they might stay. Noone was named, it was Tocharaeh himself that decided to be public. Now we have a helper 'strike' - I can't see how this isn't making things even more public.
???
I agree with the opening post, alot of the reasons that people do not stay are from part of the existing player base.
It has been this way for as long as I've known 4D. If this is labelled as 'a personal quarrel' and not to be discussed, then I don't see how it is going to change.
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Britnoth, you flamed someone personally and thats not acceptable.
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The answer is to give Virisin a HERO flag and an HoF statue, clearly.
Also Britnoth has always been a retard this is nothing new.
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Like I already said, please refrain from personal attacks in the discussion threads.
And perhaps it would help in keeping more players, if you tried to do the same in-game. A friendly atmosphere generally attracts more people than a hostile one.
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Another thing that'd be good to think about when trying to lasso new players is not to immediately involve them in pre-existing mud drama, or general personal matters that are already familiar to oldbies. They don't care. Shoot, half the other players could care less either. Nobody cares with whom you do not agree, and having it out with them over the newbie channel is lame.
Try not to weird them out already! I've met some of the most amazing people here on this mud and have enjoyed being a part of the game, and would love to have new players able to say the same.
When noobs ask questions, and this isn't just directed at helpers because EVERYBODY should help:
Be direct. Don't perv.
Interact with them without giving copious amounts of hand-outs.
Enjoy the intensely descriptive game we call 4D! ;D
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*claps in approval*
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See suggestions forums, many ideas in favor of keeping new players, I think clans will be a major factor. And making the first tier be way easy to level, make them be like oo this is nice.
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"Newbie" area needs updating or redesigning. Just... not entirely sure how =o
Every other "problem" I can think of in relation to keeping new players all comes down to the environment and the people.. which I have no solutions for. The playerbase is small, which isn't attractive to newcomers, there's not a lot of events, there's almost no PVP because it's so restricted and again.. no playerbase, and... yeah.
Only other thing I can think of is along the lines of improving customer service. But that mainly falls under "keeping" players.
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What's wrong with the newbie area? Please be more specific. :)
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I liked the mudschool - it was one of the reasons I decided to stay. Even though I did have a few bugs that attacked me while I was there. They caused me to meet Molly and Mordecai like the second day I played. *heh* I was impressed by the interest those two (both IMPS) took when I (a newbie) asked about a problem I had there (erm.. why is it when I leave the stagecoach I go to bluebird's hottub - or something like that - and where is that?) and I couldn't even get the stagecoach to work because of that bug. *heh* Was a fun time. Bug was fixed like the next day. ;) Anyway, enough nostalga I'm sure.
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yeah, didnt you get the memo? all nostalgia is going in the wipe :p
I actually started playing here because of Octavius and Kansas (if you remember those guys)... one of my good irl friends and his brother.
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What's wrong with the newbie area? Please be more specific. :)
It's been so long since I was there, I'm totally useless in this department.
There's nothing wrong with it, I just remember thinking it wasn't very.. hmm.. enticing? Again this probably actually has more to do with the playerbase than anything else, just for me the newbie area wasn't a huge depiction of the crazy amount of awesome zones and such that this mud has to offer. I also don't remember it teaching the basics, like about remorts, or suggesting to type nobat, or where to practice skills. I know a lot of new players don't pay attention to newbie areas, I for one certainly hate them, but can't help but notice some of the questions new players start asking right away, that maybe we could answer for them in the school.
I know for me at least, the first areas I see when I enter a game is what is going to make or break it to some extent. We've got all these awesome zones (Egypt, VE, Punt, Enchanted Lands, Midlands just to name some of my favorites) that are incredibly well designed and rich with imagination, and noobie school is just.. i dont know... does anyone understand what I'm trying to say here? I've only had one coffee and I think I'm failing at trying to say what I'm thinking. =S
Newbie school as it is is a fine depiction of the fact we have multiple dimensions, and we have a lot of stuff here, but a part of me thinks it would be better off with one general theme built to the crazyness of something lile Midlands or Punt, totally insane with awesomeness. Right now from what I remember, theres some small quests, some rats, some bears, and brief explanations of commands.
Again though. It's been a long time since I was in there. I usually just skip through it because I can't stand newbie areas, I always want to rush out and see what the -actual- mud looks like. I think maybe this is my main point. People have short attention spans, especially with graphical MMORPGS around. I think to a large extent, if we don't seriously grab someones attention in the first half hour with the awesome stuff we have here, we lose them.
I also remember a few others saying newbie school could be redone, but they never came up with any ideas either.
I fail. Sorry =p
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The mudschool does teach about tiers (medieval mudschool - Joe, Pete and erm.. 2 other brothers I can't remember off the top of my head). As for where to practice skills/spells - at the time I went through you learned it through Lionel who was like the 2nd room in the school - if the skills/spells are spread all over, not sure how you can teach that other than to say "For now, you can learn your skills at lionel, but after mudschool you will have to find your skills and spells as you adventuer" or some such.
Mudschool is only there to teach you how the mud is different (the first few rooms after you make a character are there to teach you how to move and whatnot - the very, very basics but those are outside of the mudschool) and a few of the basic - commonly used commands/ideas. It teaches about the 4 different zones of the mud (future, prehistoric, medieval, old west) as well as things like how to use vehicles (stagecoach in old west) and how to greet people (Medieval area). Of course, throughout the mudschool there are various quests (like the helper flag quest and the new-ish find the items quest that I've not done since it went in after I was new).
It would be very difficult to come up with an area like Punt, Midlands, etc and teach the very things we need to teach people - at the level new players would understand. As for teaching people nobat? Yeah, erm.. it would seem odd to tell people - by the way hunger and thirst matter and play havoc with your regeneration ability... and just so you don't want to see the messages all the type, go type nobat and when you ask why you're not regenerating quickly enough you'll be told you're probalby hungry thirsty, but with nobat on you never saw the messages. Kinda messed up, I think. Players need to know that hunger/thirst is important - not the way around it. And yes, remorts isn't really touched (except when talking about tiers and that's only generally) and yes, every newbies question is "waht the heck is remort and how do I do it) but that won't be stopped until/unless we get rid of the remort system. I can explain remort until I'm blue in the face, but until someone does it, there will be questions. BTW: Midlands and Punt are basically hard questing zones... really want to turn players away that don't really like to quest that fast?
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Mud school rocks.
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yea 4d mud school rocked as much as i can remember it....
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As a newbie who has only recently discovered 4D, I thought the Mudschool was one of the more interesting and gentler approaches to teaching the MUD and its features. Usually these schooling areas are quite bland, with lots and lots of rules being thrown at new players. So either they have you slaying endless reams of small wildlife, or they make you read a 100 point international charter on the rules and regs. 4D's school had a pleasing writing style, that actually had me wanting to read the next descriptions and looking at the signs etc. Each room had something different to look at and do, and guiding the player through the different time zones was inspirational. Showing different aspects of the game in a potted and enjoyable manner.
I've been assessing a number of MUD's recently, trying to find one where I'll feel comfortable, but where there is some interesting Lore and some decent written stuff. I like the more involved puzzles and what not, although I must say I'm either not seeing it, or I'm over analysing the problem too much, but I like that solo involvement. I'd like to see more narrative, and have more people come together to take part in it, in a way thats more explore the Lore idea, than tool up and make a lot of character progress and gain status. But perhaps my roleplaying background is trying to find a MUD to squeeze into. When many MUD's take a purely gaming-the-system character progression attitude. I think some of the bigger MUD's on offer pander to the ego-centric loot grabbing ladder climbing 'power gamers' for want of a better expression for them. And so you have more of a playing population - but I'd argue you haven't got a better playing population.
4D is different because it has a lot of flavour within its four dimensions, and they can cater for all sorts of tastes. I'm hoping to convince some of my roleplaying friends from a community I'm in to try out 4D, as a place to come, enjoy the questing and combat on offer, and perhaps join in with roleplaying in the different dimensions.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw in some encouragement from a newbie's perspective here, that 4D is doing some things right, for at least some of the newcomers style of playing. I think the key to attracting and keeping new players, is to provide a place for them to express themselves, but with consideration for others, and respect for the community itself.
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I think the key to attracting and keeping new players, is to provide a place for them to express themselves, but with consideration for others, and respect for the community itself.
I think Spelk spelled out as clearly as any could want. This is exactly right, and it is this that certain people have forgotten over the years.
Also. Yeah, we need more RPers. We are a huge minority in 4D.
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I agree with Kitolani on not including newbies in current mud drama's. And I also agree with Kitolani that everyone should help not just helper. Sometimes helper's are afk and can't answer and sometimes we are busy leveling ourselves so sometimes we might miss an newbie channel question.
Prometheus