4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: horus on February 22, 2009, 03:59:37 am
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I know this isnt original, but this is an example of a skill tree system I am proposing, to make 4D classes very different.
Melee --> hand-to-hand --> martial arts (general) --> monkey stance --> special monkey attacks
martial arts (general) --> snake stance --> various special snake attacks
martial arts (general) --> tiger stance --> etc etc
Melee --> weapon profiencies --> sword specialisation --> special sword attacks
weapon profiencies --> mace specialisation --> mace special attacks
Further explanation:-
The special attacks could be branches for further specialisations. So for example, monkey stance may have Raving Monkey --> Drunken Monkey --> Rabid Monkey as one branch, and another branch could be Vicious Claw --> Frenzied Claw --> Heavenly Strike. Each martial arts stance has different attack damage, so monkey may be claw attack, snake is pierce, etc.
Each special attack has different effects. Each stance also does different damage, and has different damage multipliers and different speeds.
Weapon specialisations has different effects, but the damage is always going to be based on the weapon used.
So, warriors can decide they like to work with weapons, while others may decide to become a martial artist. Even within each branch, they are very different from each other, depending on which specialty they want to go down.
This is just a simple example that can be applied to casters as well.
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mMMm I love skill trees.
For martial artists you can create glove weapons for fists o d00m if they dun wanna use swords 'n such.
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Furthermore, I forgot to add, that each special attack has ranks. You need to spend 5 pracs to add one rank to each skill, and the harder skills cannot have higher ranks than the earlier skills.
So in the end, you can either have :-
Vicious Claw (rank 5) -> Frenzied Claw (rank 4) -> Heavenly Strike (rank 2)
OR
Vicious Claw (rank 15) -> frenzied claw (rank1)
Of course, each rank of a particular attack will increase in damage range, speed, and any other special effects, so that an example would be:-
Vicious Claw rank 10 - victim has chance to be stunned
Frenzied Claw rank 5 - victim's face is ripped off, and gets blinded
Heavenly strike rank 5 - victim is bashed and stunned
This is a rough example. There will be multiple effects for particular ranks, so it will be impossible for a character to learn everything and have all ranks maxed out.
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I love it when you talk dirty to me
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personally i'd love to see something martial arts/a little ninja sprinkled around, with forms - i do wonder about balance issues and all the weapons in place becoming obsolete if players were weaponless/extra attacks and whatnot and how this would affect the current skills/spells in place
and for grins http://seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=mamove (http://seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=mamove)
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Ok I am of two minds with this idea.
On the plus side
I think this will breath some new life into the game and give things an interesting twist leading to greater player diversity and combinations. If done correctly and powered right then will allow solo players greater range earlier on, as they will stronger characters.
The difference in individual characters will be much better and allow for greater play of characters.
On the minus side
The implimentation of this is going to be a huge job and take alot of time.
Is this going to get finished and implimented?
How is it going to effect current ingame eq and armour?
It is going to be the closest thing to a Pwipe that you can have without doing a Pwipe.
At the moment the skill and spells of the mud is stagnent and old - we have the same old skills and spells just renamed made stronger or weaker and passed around the classes.
Our classes were meant to be different all bringing something unique to the table but that was lost.
If done correctly then we can have some very different classes all forfilling vital roles in the game where people can play the style that they want to play not be forced to play a class because without being this class we can not survive.
The idea of requiring multiple pracs to go up a single level of a skill or spell will slow leveling down alot, which can go one of two ways either it will slow it down so much players will get bored and give up or it will inject fresh energy into players striving to reach a maxed character.
How will this work with the tier system?
At the moment we have to gain 204 levels to complete tier 4 if this is going to abolish the tier system will each class have a potential 204 levels to gain the required skill points to place into the skills at the inflated values?
What happens when you remort who much of our previous work are we going to have access to? Is there going to be a GM idea in place or is it going to be a stay in the class you have mastered type deal?
I would like to see a GM type senario in place as it allows players that have invested the time and effort to level to carry on their own solo adventures without the heavy reliance on others and simply speaking at the moment we do not have the huge amount of players to have to rely on other players being present all the time to level with.
How are players going to react to starting again - I understand there is talk of compensation and can see good and bad points to this (good) those that have invested the time and effort to gain the levels do not loose everything and have to start again and they will stay with the mud (bad) you will end up with a situation like you do at the moment after the trainer update the older players have all the skills but most have no idea where to find the trainers, yet are top level players - it is essentually making it a totally new game and as such should not all start off on an even footing, this allows for more experianced players to fully test the system as they are playing it not just have players that are currently gm get given it all back again then sit around and do nothing and have to rely on new players to try and find the flaws and gaps that are there as they will be the first ones through the new system.
Then the big question how many players will we loose to changing?
Equipment with new skills and specilizations what new eq qill we need to balance up the game at the moment if you use a sword or dagger then you are covered but staves, martial arts weaponry, maces etc have not recieved any love in the past, are we going to end up with classes devoid of eq as it is just not in the game and what is there is nowhere near as effective or even on par with current swords and daggers?
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I am cautiously positive to a skill tree based skills/spells system myself, since I'd prefer a setup where the classes are significantly different, and with a wide variety of choices, rather than all players ending up more or less with the same set of skills and spells, as seems to be the case now.
Also there seems to be a pretty widespread discontent with our present remort system. But then again, this might just be a vocal minority, while most players would prefer a status quo. Another point is that most of the radical ideas come from players who aren't really active any more.
Still, the Mud seems pretty dead nowadays, most of the older players just hang out at Recall, if they bother to log on at all, and the inflew of new players is not nearly large enough.
So maybe - just maybe - a drastic change of the combat system might help to rekindle the interest for at least some of our oldbies.
However, make no mistake - a new combat system like this means a huge and dramatic change, and most likely not all our players will be happy about it. Some because they dislike all changes, others because they'd rather see a change in the opposite direction.
If - and I say if, because it is in no way certain, and there is a long road to go - but if we decide to implement this, it means that everyone will have to learn to use a brand new set of skills and spells. Everybody will also have to figure out new strategies for the best for PK and fighting mobs.
It also needs a huge amount of coding work, and although we have a volunteer for that, a change of this magnitude will take a long time to work out, test and balance into a viable system. So don't expect any change to happen overnight.
It will also involve a lot of work for the rest of the staff, mostly after the change, (above all with helpfiles, Trainer system and web page info).
It will need patience and tolerance from all players, since we probably have to run the systems parallel for quite some time. We cannot just shut down the Mud for several months while the new system is developed, but we might open an extra test port for it. So we will also need testplayers with enough interest and enthusiasm to carry the ideas through this developing period.
A good thing is that we can use the Gladiators to test the balance.
Hopefully the change wouldn't need to influence the zones too much. 4D has always been very equipment oriented, and I'd like equipment to play a similar role in the new system. We might have to create some new types of weapons, and spread them evenly over the zones, but that's really the least of the problems we'd be facing.
To make the change easier to handle, we should keep the current number of 8 Classes, but it might be a good idea to change the name and general characteristics of a couple of them. I'd however like to keep the connection to our main theme with the 4 Time Dimensions
There will be no need for a pwipe, and we think that we can figure out a fair way to compensate old players with many remorts, (probably by giving them one more or less full trained character of whatever branch they choose for each char with a given number of remorts, but other approaches can also be discussed).
If the system can be implemented successfully, it might bring new interest for players that have more or less tired of the current game. But it could also turn out to be the last nail in the coffin, by losing the majority of our current players. It's a bit of a gamble.
So the first step in this will be an open Forum discussion, to see how large the interest would be for a change. We'd like a lot of input and suggestions from the players in this thread.
Gradually we'll post examples of how the skill trees could be built up for the different Classes, and naturally we'll want lots of input on those too.
We will also open a separate thread, with a poll, where people can vote for and against a change, and also motivate their standpoint. This might allow us to avoid some pitfalls on the way.
So, like I said initially, although I am basically positive to the proposed change, I can also see a lot of problems on the road.
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I'd like to put in my (yet again) formal request for a system like this to be honestly looked into. Certainly The 4d Staff is not alone and there are many like turin, Horus, Xeriuth, Devram, and myself who are willing to help in whatever was we can. As Turin said, the system IS stagnant.
I’d very much like to keep the T4 system. I feel like it’s almost a never ending road sometimes, which is nice because I’ll stop for a bit….then pick it up again. I enjoy long hard roads.
I’d also want to keep the 4d unique classes, and make them a t4 advancement because they’re very much a 4D staple. The other “stock” classes would be basic.
Here is how I’d like the T4 aspect to work (detailed):
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4080/classtree.jpg)
No big change structure wise. We keep the system we have now, rename the tiers, and add a few extra things. If you’re wondering about the “merlin” deal on the T4 druid side. Merlin was the title for arch druids. Believe it or not, wizard was also a title for Druids in medieval times, but has LONG since become skewed. Anyway, they are right on par with each other in rank.
For theif you’ll see I put bard as the T2 and up. The reason being is that bards can be as crooked as the next cutpurse. The only difference is that bards had musical talent latent with magic…assassins…not so much. Assassins are far more "hands on/Garrote on". It’s fun because you get “rock star” at T3 which is sweet because of our Future aspect in the game, Slannesh and all that. Yeah, it is cool in my opinion, and of course ends with 4D‘s Gypsy (as it should). Very 4D. Cleric has it’s very clear roads, either you’re a holy man/woman who will bring down the THUNDA from up high!….or you’re the holy warrior who will defend your religion to the death…AND BRING DOWN DA THUNDA! (thunder people...thunder)
We need a separate tree for Esper of course, and so there you have it. Warrior has it’s three classes combined. I never truly understood the different between hunter and ranger, because they’re both very much in tune with nature, and should understand the importance of balance between predator and prey, so I put those two together, which ends in Pathfinder which is the ultimate rank for tree huggers who are in tune with nature, and are masters of stealth, hunt, and navigation. The other side of course is the martial artist side (for you Horus, hehe).
Starting from scratch you learn JUST the basic skills, and a taste of what’s to come. This way you can get the idea of where you’re headed. Once you’ve made your choice, the basic skills stay with you, along with your “taste”. They will remained unchanged when you remort. Any extra points will carry over. As you advance you will keep certain abilities until finally you reach your T4 where you’ll have a complete tree like Horus proposes bearing some skills from the previous remorts, and then having a much larger tree unique and befitting a master of your field. Everyone has their own niche now. Casters have magic, warriors have expertise, rogues have their trade, and psychics have their mental know-how. Each one brings something new to the table.
This is the kind of system I honestly believe 4D could really use. We include the skill tree into our Tier system, creating our defined individual pathways, and I honestly believe people will come and STAY. I do believe that the 4D Quest aspect should be integral to this tier system. As you go up, before you remort, you must quest at your respectful guildhall which has been hidden somewhere deep within 4D’s labyrinth of creativity. To advance, you have to seek out the new Guildhall, quest, and then progress. We lose nothing, but gain a lot.
We really could use this kind of referbishment. As it stands our classes are not balanced, messy, and to be honest- slapped together as a quick idea smoeone thought up over lunch. I am a big fan of tiers, and pathways. For me, I almost beleve the more tiers the better because at least I'm doing something.
Finally, SHOULD you for whatever reason decide you don't like where you are.. There is a simple function>> Reroll. Just type Reclass (T1 class) (password), and confirm... BAM! You're now T1 again. Now, because we're using the skill tree system, we include the funtion REROLL. What you do is you pay a token/rp points/trade points/whatever AT your guildmanster (this is automatically deducted from your bank), type reroll (pw)(confirm), and ZZZZzzzIP, all of the points you have previously invested (aside form the basics taht will never change..cause they're basic) have default back to "total unspent". This allows you to play with different tree combos, and so on.
Okay, that's it for now. This is long enough (sorry everyone). I'm interested to see where this list takes us. 4D needs to be revitilized. -Toch
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I like the system that Toch lined up, but I’d like it even more if it included all our current classes as a starting point - i.e. 8 classes instead of 6, and with the current Class names kept.
Why?
First: because it would make the change a lot less dramatic for the players.
Second: Because it most likely would make the handling of pfiles easier for the coders, during the actual switch. (Players could simply get the Class and Tier they had in the old system transferred to the new one).
Third: Because it would need a lot of less work for the builders to adapt the zones. (existing Guilds could be kept, existing quests that send players on different paths because of class would still work, hopefully the current Trainer system could basically be kept, even with new skills and spells and new names on existing ones, etc.)
Fourth: Because 4D is a very old mud and tradition and theme are important at least to me.
For instance, three of our current classes are tied to a special Dimension in my mind: Hunters to Prehistoric, Rangers to OldWest and Espers to Future. The other five are pretty timeless and work for any Dimension.
Some examples:
Gypsy could have two branches.
The first would be the current utilitarian direction with Woodsing and Tinker, and Taming of pets and mounts added as an extra bonus. (Today tame is a useless skill that everybody has, but what if you had to pay a gypsy to train your animal) ?
The second branch would be the Bard – Rockstar direction, that Toch already proposed for Thieves.
Thief in turn could have one branch that was basically leading to Assassin, and another that would involve the more manipulative sneaky skills of spies, diplomats an merchants (Remember that Hermes was the God of Thieves and Merchants).
Ranger to me is an Oldwest themed Class – (think Cowboys and Indians).
So one direction could be Trapper (specialising in various kinds of traps that could be dropped in rooms, to harm or just immobilize players or mobs).
The other direction could be the cowboy/Indian approach, which would specialise in ranged weapons of all kinds, and also in whip skills (a whip could be used to harm, trip, snare, strangle etc.the opponent).
Hunter could have a Prehistoric theme, close to nature. Think shamans who painted pictures of the prey on the cave walls. But also the heroes of antique Greece like Heracles, who used clubs and strangled lions with his bare hands. Traditionally the antique gods took an active interest in the prowess of their human favourite, so some praying might result in the God throwing a magic cloak over you, or just whisking you out of harm’s way.
Hunters to me would be a mix of magic and brute force, and one branch could be shaman, ending in shapeshifter, i.e. the ability to turn into the animal you defeated.
Esper of course is Future, and would work with twisting the opponents mind in different ways. Obvious spells are confuse, foresee etc, and maybe they should have one offensive and one protective branch.
Warrior would pretty obviously have one barehanded martial arts branch and another that specialised in the use of various weapons, but not ranged ones.
Priest would be fine with the two branches that Toch outlined.
Mages finally have loads of possibilities and it wouldn’t be hard to find two branches for them. In fact I think the biggest problem here would be to choose between the options.
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got an ideea
on the priest side , why not priests can be holy and shadow/dark
holy talents would focus in healing and so while shadow could be focused on doing damage
oh yeah , and i also think gypsie class should be looked carefully , its most useless class in game
not pointing out anyone just saying , soon ill try to come with some ideeas
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I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based. Should we implement something like that, then what happens is we'd cause alignment issues. The Shadow Plane, and Shadow Weave type stuff which is actually featured in my zone, does site the sources and so on.
However! We COULD in fact base spell affects off of alignment. Say if your alignment is -100 and lower, your magic would in fact be twisted. This would make things very interesting because if you're evil, you'll cast shadow magic, and if you're good, you'll cast well..normal good magics. I think that would be the best idea.
The reason for this suggestion is that I want the two sides of a holy warrior displayed. Melee/Priest. Both are priests, but one of course is more warrior than anything. The holy warrior bit will actually implement some VERY cool stuff. Here are the skill examples I have for you on the melee side:
Charge: Think of it as behead, but it requires a mount, and it will knock the person down.
Rear: This will rear your mount back into position for another charge.
Crucify: (my favorite) Kind of like scalp, but instead you nail the body to a cross.
Now imagine if you will, assume your alignment is currently at evil, then you'd nail someone on a cross upside down. heheh that's pretty flippin' evil. As long as you have a corpse you can do it.
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I've got some good ideas, during the day while on duty i'll try to write them up. Much involves, better formation of the trees and crafting anyone?
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And btw...
a huge amount of coding work, and although we have a volunteer for that, a change of this magnitude will take a long time to work out, test and balance into a viable system.
If this volunteer is up for the work, perhaps he/she can start on a bunch of other stuff in the meantime, because this change requires a lot of brainstorming before any actual coding.
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I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based.
ERm.. who says Shadow magic HAS to be alignment based?
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Molly says:If the system can be implemented successfully, it might bring new interest for players that have more or less tired of the current game. But it could also turn out to be the last nail in the coffin, by losing the majority of our current players. It's a bit of a gamble.
I have to agree that it's a bit of a gamble to demolish the entire skill structure. After all, there are actually those of us that hang out for more than just the 10,000 different ways you can splat a mob or player. Molly's post about the little tweaks on each of the existing classes had excellent ideas. Very '4d' in nature, and not too complicated to be added without some huge overhaul.
The premise of the game is so incredibly flexible that if you can't imagine that you're a ninja or neuromancer without the skillset, you don't deserve to be one. I can see a thief being an assassin, or also a misunderstood treasure hunter. The difference between the two doesn't lie in the set of skills you have, but rather in the way you decide to portray your character. Everybody has the capacity to steal, some just choose the path of the honest merchant instead.
Ideas of grandure can be tossed around in moments of boredom, but I implore you to examine the jewel that you already have existing and merely buff it to a shine. What about making the various trades and professions easier for younglings to get started on? That would both encourage roleplay and stimulate the economy. Smuggling your loads of whatnot just to have enough tradepoints at the end of the day to fuel your starbike hardly seems like motivation, but I hear it's fun. It's gotta be better than the daily grind, no matter what new fancy skills you get to spam.
I'm not opposed to looking at skill trees and such, I just think that they should be lower on the list than more logical things like bugs in the current system that need to be fixed.
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My biggest concern is that right now we only have two active coders and I know for a fact I'm not going to be too useful for making new skills so it is going to fall on Molzilla to code this and with all of the bugs etc that need fixing I think we need to fix the current bugs first then we can discuss maybe adding some new skills but adding this many skills I'm going to see a whole boatload of bugs / balance fixes. The best way to work on this to me would be it to be coded and tested on a beta port and then we can see how things work out.
I think we should introduce some basics "new" skills and see how people like those then maybe add more. I can't see putting in 50 new skills without major issues. Now if we add like 1 new skills / spell for each class and see how it goes then we can work on adding more skills. I'm concerned about changing too much too quick and making in confusing for newbies and older players alike.
And what about trainers as well?
Prometheus
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I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based.
ERm.. who says Shadow magic HAS to be alignment based?
Well, if you know anything about Shadow magic, it IS evil. You can't say otehrwise. The very EMBODIMENTS of Good and Evil is Light and Darkness. These are very two different entities you're dealing with here. Shadow is evil. there is no way around it.
Not to be a dick, but instead to trying to challenge my "views" on things, I would advise actually looking into this kind of stuff. When it comes down to it, there are very clear rules and definitions that have become universal over the past 30 years of systems writing, and clarifications. I don't make this stuff up. My input isn't single system based, and it never has been. I hold a lot of knowledge in multiple systems that despite their very different worlds, and so on still abide the bare bones rules of how the cosmos work, be it fantasy, dark fantasy, or sci-fi. There are some very clear universal definitions.
-Toch
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I think I’m with the majority in saying that I too would love it if there were more differentiation between the classes. The skill tree idea looks great.
However, at the end of the day after all the work is done, I think we will just end up with more classes (i.e. right now there are 8 classes and the tree would make it 16 classes). I can’t see that much will really change after the addition.
Currently, every class is pretty self sufficient. Everyone has tons of money to buy tons of great potions/scrolls/wands and everyone is able to use all those things. Also at least half of the time you have partial skills from two classes as you work your way up the remort system. There is no need to rely much on anyone else.
Also, there is no conflict with anyone else. Why even have the ‘detect alignment’ spell. Who cares? Personally I stay neutral so I can use the majority of the equipment and run back to my clan hall if my alignment changes to evil to prevent any aligned equipment falling off in the middle of a fight. I stay always neutral or good which seems weird to me since I am in an evil clan. I like Asmoday’s idea of having the priest class having to chose between good and evil.
So here is what I think after having a few beers:
1) Limit the use of scrolls and wands to appropriate classes (esper, mage, priest, etc) to increase the reliance of the non-magical classes on magical classes. Increase cost of using the healer near recall.
2) Keep the existing 8 classes or do the tree thing, but after remorting, start fresh with a new class (no carry over skills) so each class will be pure and unique and their skills/spells might be requested by someone in another class.
3) Either increase the cost of potions/scrolls/wands drastically or reduce the money on mobs. There is currently no fear or cause for concern about anything because we all have more money than we know what to do with. By the way, I agree with Tocharaeh that potions weigh too much. It just creates more work.
4) Make people be evilly aligned, good aligned or neutrally aligned when they join a clan to help encourage conflict. This would probably entail a look at the equipment stats.
5) The pk system shouldn’t be that a 60 time remorted player can kill and full loot a 2 time remorted player. Yah, yah I know you all went through it and survived it. But considering the work it takes to fully re-equip with quest equipment, the current system isn’t worth joining. PK adds an element of conflict and excitement to the game and a reason to try role playing.
So to sum up, I’m not convinced that making more skills/spells will change much. After people try out the new skills/spells/classes and the newness of it fades, I think people will go back to sitting at recall, being afk at recall or questing/grinding/exploring by themselves. I think after the newness fades we will all just go back to the social aspect of the gossip channel and most of us do our own thing and not interact with each other in a role play sort of way. I think conflict and a real need to have other classes help you would revitalize more than new skills/spells.
PS Tier One Gypsy killing a small mouse - Backstab, watch screen scroll by, watch screen scroll by, watch screen scroll by, flee, flee, Lay still you are dead.
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If this volunteer is up for the work, perhaps he/she can start on a bunch of other stuff in the meantime, because this change requires a lot of brainstorming before any actual coding.
Well, I agree on both points.
However:
1. The volunteer is a seasoned coder, but comparatively new to 4D.
We already have 4 coders, all of whom know 4D from a long time back. They may be more or less inactive - mostly due to RL issues - but this also varies over time. So although I agree that there are bugs and other stuff that should have higher priorities, I also think that fixing those should better be done by the normal crew, who know the game and the code intimately, than by a relative newcomer. Thotter will of course be supervising the project, as current Head Coder, but his time is more needed on other things.
Revamping the skills/spells system is a huge project, but also an isolated one. By appointing someone to deal specifically with the project, and nothing else that would detract from time and concentration, we stand a better chance of it actually being completed. And even if it isn't finished, we haven't really lost anything, because the entire development work would be carried out and playtested in a separate port, and will consequently not affect the Gameport in any way, until we feel satisfied that the new system is fully viable and represents an improvement of what we've got.
2. Sure, the ideas need a lot of brainstorming before they can be formed into a viable system, and we definitlely count on a lot of input from all our players - old and new - throughout the entire development period.
I have hopes that we can find a system that builds on our current Classes, with just a different approach to the choices of developing your char, (a bit along the lines that Toch sketched in his post), by using skill trees. If managed the right way, we can create a system that doesn't mean a total upheaval of what we've got, just an improvement, to make it more interesting and varied.
The brainstorming has already started. A small development group has been formed and will continously post on the Forum as the project develops. And we hope there will be a continuous response along the road, from all players, old and new.
All ideas and other input are welcome. Criticism and fears as well.
We're not going to implement anything, until and unless we feel secure about it really being an improvement.
But here's a chance for you all to make an impact on your game.
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Currently, every class is pretty self sufficient. Everyone has tons of money to buy tons of great potions/scrolls/wands and everyone is able to use all those things. Also at least half of the time you have partial skills from two classes as you work your way up the remort system. There is no need to rely much on anyone else.
Yup, pretty self sufficiant, but what we're looking for is more specialization so as to draw people. What happenes is that we bring people to instead of a "stock system" that's very bare bones to something that mudders/gamers generally understand.
5) The pk system shouldn’t be that a 60 time remorted player can kill and full loot a 2 time remorted player. Yah, yah I know you all went through it and survived it. But considering the work it takes to fully re-equip with quest equipment, the current system isn’t worth joining. PK adds an element of conflict and excitement to the game and a reason to try role playing.
That is going to be the most difficult change that will probably never happen. The reason being is that dmg, and HP are way out of whack in a lot of sense. Ideas are being brought up about this in the future as to creating an rememdy...but don't hold your breath. The split second PK battles have been with 4D since their birth...so very hard to change/fix
2) Keep the existing 8 classes or do the tree thing, but after remorting, start fresh with a new class (no carry over skills) so each class will be pure and unique and their skills/spells might be requested by someone in another class.
This is the old code system. You just remort, change classes, rmeort, change classes, and so on. no tiers just remorts. We can't try and force people to rely on each other again. Back then you could, but it was a different world of gaming. Everquest was just coming out, and so on. We were a simplier folk!
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I am still working on everything and when i have time I shall make a pretty large sized post explaining what will be going down, but I could use some input!
My idea roughly involves, keeping the tier system, and the four original classes, but instead of progressing into the same class you kind of essentially merge with another class to create a new one, it's more like a tree.
Ex. Tier 1 is the original classes: Hunter, Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Gypsy, Esper, Mage, Priest
Tier 2 is a merge of any combination: Warrior + Hunter = Savage where Savage would have many of the skills of both classes from tier 1 and some unique sets. From Tier 2 to 3, savage could then branch to a more. Where Tier 4 could just simply be a master of that Tier 3 class. Savage could lead to Barbarian and Viking, which leads to Barbarian Tier4 which is the mastered class of that.
Desirably at Tier 4 an individual can remort back to Tier 1 and work their way up again, exact stipulations can be worked on. Also with remorting the class that you mastered can be saved, and eventually you could master many classes, maybe small mastery bonuses? small because there may be a lot of tier 3 possibilities.
Although it looks like we are adding tons of classes we are just simply condensing skillsets to make them all more unique, and of course with new names to add a little flare. On top of condensing skillsets new skills for the classes, maybe 1-3 unique skills specific for the Tier 3 classes?
Here's my current listing of combination with names...
W + H = Savage
W + R = Swordsman
W + T = Bandit
W + G = Martial Artist
W + E = Mesmer
W + M = War Mage
W + P = Warrior Monk
H + w = Savage
H + R = Tracker
H + T = Assassin
H + G = Pathfinder
H + E = Tamer
H + M = Necromancer
H + P = Shaman
R + H = Tracker
R + w = Swordsman
R + T = Pirate
R + G = Cowboy
R + E = Horseman
R + M = Padawan
R + P = Druid
T + H = Assassin
T + R = Pirate
T + w = Bandit
T + G = Burgular
T + E = Trickster
T + M = Tempest
T + P = Crusader
G + H = Pathfinder
G + R = Cowboy
G + T = Burgular
G + W = Martial Artist
G + E = Illusionist
G + M = Wizard
G + P = Templar
E + H = Tamer
E + R = Horseman
E + T = Trickster
E + G = Illusionist
E + W = Mesmer
E + M = Conjurer
E + P = Monk
M + H = Necromancer
M + R = Padawan
M + T = Tempest
M + G = Wizard
M + E = Conjurer
M + W = War Mage
M + P = Cleric
P + H = Shaman
P + R = Druid
P + T = Crusader
P + G = Templar
P + E = Monk
P + M = Cleric
P + W = Warrior Monk
Many are redundant, like W + P and P + W but I put my chart typed out there. And of course since combining the two classes you arent going to double up with the same class, but maybe we'd want to allow that?
Comments, questions, concerns? A suggestion for this would be to have classes on who by like WarPri WaPr, something like that instead of having to know every single class, would make things simpler and would then just need helpfiles explaining the combination of the classes.
If anyone disagrees with what I did, that's fine. I think the idea has merit, many of the names could be reworked, and the idea tweaked.
But to top it off, here is a compilation of names of potential classes to rework into T2 or T3 as a continuation of some already listed: Beastmaster, Dragonmaster, Archer, Paladin, Cavalier, Barbarian, Knight, Jedi, Dark-Jedi, Sith, Jouster, Trapper, Cutpurse, Crook, Troubadour, Minstrel, Rock Star, Bard, Performer, Dancer, Juggler, Acrobat, Mind Reader, Pyromancer, Hydromancer, Magus, Magician. Sooo any ideas and all ideas etc would be appreciated. I can further develop this idea and add lots more information. Let the brainstorming begin!?!?
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I hate posting another mud's website, but maybe looking at this link would help. Dreamsmud is a mud I played on for a while before coming to 4Dimensions. At the end, I left because they didn't need builders and I needed a place to ply my trade (or something like that). At the end you end up being level 150 but every 50 levels you get to choose which "path" you want to follow (if I'm remembering right - it has been a few years).
http://www.dreamsmud.com/classes.htm
If nothing else, it may help someone to think of names or ideas for this thread. Look at it or choose to ignore it as you wish.
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Psionicist Seer Mindbender Mercenary Curate that's about all the new class suggestions from Kvetch's site I got.
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Avatar, Enchanter, Witch, Warlock, Disc Jockey, Jungalier.. just a few from one of Tocharaeh's post.
and a few more from me,
Captain, Medic, Spy, Scout, Sniper, Infantry, Demonologist, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, Loremaster, Blackguard, Archemage, Duelist, Hierophant, Mystic, Lifedrinker, Soul Eater, Diabolist, Oracle, Liberator, Soldier, Pyrokineticist, slayer, Doomdreamer, Explorer, Vigilante, Virtuoso, Ghostwalker, Gladiator, Ninja, Samurai, Shinobi, Ravager, Avenger, Bladesinger, Wayfarer, Fatespinner, Champion, Apostle, Initiate, Sentinel, Skylord, Animal Lord, Streetfighter, Paragnostic, Exorcist, Blighter, Liberator, Saint, Executioner etc. More later when i have more time!
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*heads starts to spin like crazy on Xeriuth's post*
Prometheus
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I kinda hate to burst the bubble on the idea but, while I do agree the current system needs work. I do not think it should be completely scrapped. I think in terms of getting players to our mud we need to focus on our strong point, which never has been our amazing code. I remember what drew me to 4d was the amazing zones and the (mostly) friendliness of the people that played here. I'll also point out that it seems that the player base has picked up significantly since grouping was brought back. I agree with Riley that 4d used to be a game for the casual gamer. And which direction do we want to take the mud in. That for the die hard gamers, or for the casual gamer who can't spend a redic amount of time online. But, do realize there are more casual gamers than there are die hard. I just feel that we could separate the classes more as they are now. Or like with what Toch said. Make some of them subclasses. In the end I just feel that our pbase will benefit more from us focusing on our zones instead of our code. It just seems that with every change in the code it takes a little away from zones. I could be completely wrong but please tear this apart as you feel fit.
Estidn
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What most of you dont realise is, you are totally totally spoilt by the great zones and great scripts that set 4d apart from most muds, and what that did was hide the flaws this code has. Not only is the code a mess, but the combat system is one of the most basic I have ever come across - I can say with confidence that the current combat system is almost as basic as the original diku code.
What we want to achieve is to move the code to at least be worthy of the zones that are in 4d, and have a combat system that is more evolved and fun to play with. The changes made to the combat system will reflect the current zones, so that anything that is implemented will not require any zone modification, except perhaps to add variety to the zones to reflect the code changes.
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Post to remind people to input input and INPUT more!
Prometheus.
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Pfft Kitolani, once again I couldn't agree with you more. Why implement a huge change into the game when what we have can be fixed. Molly is right about traditions being a huge part of our game. Why throw the game out of balance again after it's just starting to get balanced again. I remember when tiers were first implemented and about a year and a half after that I could level Estidn with chill touch in dino's and they'd hit me maybe once a fight. The simple fact is the mud still isn't completely balanced from a system that was implemented years ago.
The fact is we can set up classes so that they're different. You can have warriors doing 7000 damage in the time it takes a thief to do 1000 damage seven times. Skills can be reworked. But what you're asking for is something that can be done with a lot less impact on the mud. Thieves will never be able to truly thieves that sneak around and pick locks and the such. Our quests and zones won't allow that. Unless of course you want it so you can simply pick every lock in the covent. We can make this work with the classes we have instead of adding 60 more options and splitting them in two. Thief can be a dodger and Ranger a damage dealer. Warrior - a tank with huge damage but slow, Hunter able to set traps. Traps are easy to code and can be effective with ranged weapons. Set a trap in a room then fire an arrow or something, could be set up. Gypsy in my opinion is what it has always been and should be. Mage, should be damage spells, maybe higher damage less often. Priest, I think is fine or highly nerf the damage they can do. Esper, I alway thought could be a awesome class. Confusing, blinding, all the aliments possible. Then they could use elementals for damage and have theirs sucks.
Like I said before. 4d works because of our zones. Every newbie who logs on is taken back by how well they're written.
Theirs my view for ya, Horus, again :P
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I think you guys have missed the point entirely.
The skill tree system WILL in fact work with the way our zones are set up. The problem here is that the class system we have are so "slapped together" that it is embarrassing. 4D put all of their effort into building wonderful zones, and not once did they ever truly put any thought into our classes. I can even bet that their convo went a lot like this:
"Hey I have an idea"
"What?"
"Let's change the old fighting system, and add tiers to them."
"What is the point of that?"
"So it makes us APPEAR legit"
"Oh, not a bad idea. We are out of date.."
"Oh, and let's add a crap ton fo spells that really wont matter"
"Why?"
"Because it looks cool, and wastes peoples practice sessions"
"Sounds good to me, I love wasting their practice sessions!"
"One more thing."
"Hmm?"
"Lets add GM, and then gimp the hell out of it later just to mess with everyone, and piss off the ones who went through all of taht trouble to do it."
"Great!"
And what really makes me mad is the use of pick lock. You can't use it. Everything AND it's mother is !pick. Stop putting in skills that wont be used. There is no reason for it.
Point is is taht we have our classes which were thrown together, and never truly balanced. Ranger has YET to every truly be worked on. They figured "Oh, ranger can wield short and long weapons without pentalty, thats enough for him", yet do you SEE any rangers doing it? No, because dual wielding is a waste of time. The only reason to even level it up is for the mastery XP bonus...that's it.
The skill tree system has been deeply thought out, and planned. Every single player will have a niche in 4D that makes them not ONLY an asset to themselves, but to everyone else. The impact on the PBase would only go as far as you typing in a simple command to convert over from the shitty system to one that actually works. No Pwipe. And Molly has suggested that people get some sort of compensation for their efforts in the past system. That sounds pretty fair to me, in fact it is down right generous. Not only would you get a GREAT system, but also compensation. Can't complain much there!
The system is great, and the classes are wonderful. Gypsy has some great class depth now, as to many others.
-Tochie
back from midterms
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And remember these changes will be beta tested so people can have a more direct input into the skill trees.
Prometheus
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Yep yep, beta testing- the most important step one can ever take when implementing such a large change.
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So what will happen with GM's once these changes are implemented.
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so what is the latest on the skill tree system?
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So thanks to a certain someone who doesn't want to actually BE a team player here. We have lost THE coder behind this potentially epic system. Thanks to one, 4D has officially lost.
It would seem the potential skill tree is now on hold until either a miracle happens, or we forget about this.
Moral of the story: If you don't play as a team, everyone gets hurt in the long run.
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Yep skill trees are dead since the coder who was doing them aren't anymore. I'm locking this thread since there is no point in keeping it as an open thread.
Prometheus
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One last thing though: Please don't speak about things - neither openly nor covertly - when you don't know the entire story behind.
Malicious rumours never helped a situation.
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Opening this back up since skill trees are back as an work in progress.
Prometheus
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w00t
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Well then once again, I'll ask the question about what is happening to our GM's
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I've a few suggestions for the skill tree system/4d in general.
We have a very basic bare bones maladdictions/curative magic system and it would behoove us to expand upon them, and make them more worthwhle.
Maladictions(malady) for anyone who does not know is a system of spells designed to hurt players on a constant basis:
Blind (broken)
Weaken (meh)
Curse (stupidly high tier)
Confuse (useless)
Corrupt Armor (meh, could be better)
Curative consists of spells that are beneficial to players:
Cure light/critical
Antidote 1/2/3
Cure Blind (useless cause blind doens't work)
Remove Curse
This is what I am suggesting for the malady/curative spell systems:
Firstly, there should be an exact opposite to all malady spells so as to remove adverse effects when in combat. Second, they should be castable DURING combat (both malady and curative). There is absolutely no reason why either of tehse packages cannot be cast during combat. It is combat, and if we can heal in combat, we can cure. If we can fireball you ass, we can also inflict malady.
This creates a more strategic player vs. mob/pk atmosphere. I also think taht basic malady/curative should be available to all players. At least melee should have something akin to first aid, and so on.
Finally, here are some spell additions I recommend:
Cancel: Self and opponent/friend. Cancels all affects except for poison (non-magical) and curse.
Plague: Acts like poison, and can be spread.
Dirtkick: nonmagical blind skill for melee/rogue. Can be made unblind is player types RUB EYES
those are my professional suggestions.
Also, we need to have it coded in where you cannot be overloaded with eq unwillingly. There is no reason why someone should be able to give you a ton of crap that you would not carry willingly. This should get fixed.
Tocharaeh
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I'll assume that the lack of response to my questing is a lack of planning and in the end GM's will end up brushed off or merely compensated with tokens?
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Well, personally I think that GMs should get some kind of bonus, after having gone through all the classes.
Exactly what it will be cannot be determined until the entire system is finished and balanced though. Which may take quite some time, so you will have to be a bit patient.
But yeah, if it were up to me, GM should still be something significative. Although pursuing one single class out into it furthest twig should also mean something.
So in the end, maybe it will be a question about the Generalist versus the Specialist - both powerful fighters, but with different strategies for battle.
And I think you should have to make a choice. You cannot be both a generalist and a specialist. And you should only be able to top the skills in one class at the time. It should be possible to change to another end class, but then you'd lose the top skills of the earlier one.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to support Toch when it comes to thief skills.
Strangle, throttle and garotte should be fixed ASAP to work as intended. It takes quite an elaborate quest to learn throttle and garotte, which are thief skills exclusively, so they should be good.
And what happened to poison weapon? That is supposed to be a good thief skill too.
Historically, the entire Fenizia zone was built around poisons, antidotes, the poison weapon skill and the bravos. It has always been one of our most prestigious zones, and I'd like to see it keep its importance.
I'd actually like similar class-specific top skills tied to a special zone for all the classes. In this the coders and builders should work closely together. If the coders design the top skills for each class, the builders will provide the environment and quests to learn and train them.
And I'd still like vampirism and possibly lycantropy to be an affliction that isn't tied to a certain class. Both should have powerful advantages, but also equally strong disadvantages. Subskills like FuryAttack, NightRegen and DrainBlood should be vampire skills with an epic quest tied to the vampire zones Dun-Shivaar and Mirkwood, offering a choice to become a Vampire or a Vampire Hunter.
And some day we'll need to sit out together and sort through the entire subskill system.
Which are better off as real skills?
Which do we not need at all?
And what other subskills would we need?
As it is, the entire subskill list seems a total mess to me.
Some - like the Craft skills - are way too detailed, since they will probably all be scriptrun anyhow.
There are even some that seem double - like for instance brew and brewer - and in addidion there is the ordinary Brew skill.
I am going to set up a new thread about this, so that we can discuss what should be done about them.
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From Molly's Post:
I'd also like to take this opportunity to support Toch when it comes to thief skills.
Strangle, throttle and garotte should be fixed ASAP to work as intended. It takes quite an elaborate quest to learn throttle and garotte, which are thief skills exclusively, so they should be good.
I know people have been complaining about these but I and the other coders need more details. If need be you can note me with what exactly going on and please keep it short. Then I can email our coder list and go from there.
Prometheus
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Anyone know what the latest is on the home front? How are we coming along?
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Hey, last I heard Horus hadn't had time to code for a few weeks. :P Because I asked him about this system and how it was going. *heh* ONe step ahead of ya Tochy.
Kvetchy
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I love you kvetchy
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I get home in like 5 days and will have access to 4d again then, as well as all my old notes. I do believe I had a pretty in-depth skill-tree system written out at one point. I was always a big fan of the idea. Good stuff Horus.
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Too tired/don't have time to read through everything, but I did spot a post talking about how a change like this could be a gamble in relation to losing current players.
Just wanted to put my two cents in that I totally agree with a skill tree implementation. The current system... well, it sucks. But if you were to put in levels, instead of remorts, like up to 170 or 200 or whatever, and have the progressions like, say, Tocharaeh mentioned (Horay for pretty pictures), I'd be totally keen for that. Man I'd be playing as much as I could for that actually.
Be a huge job though, I'd imagine. I guess in my mind I'm imagining new skills as well, and advancements in skills with each level progression perhaps? I actually remember trying to say something along these lines many years ago, inspired from when I used to play DragonRealms, but my ideas were rejected - possibly because it was way too much work (understandable).
But yeah. In short. I'd love a skill tree dealy, and be able to pick which way you go from a basic class (again, referring to toch's pretty pictures on page 1 as an example). This would also mean I'd have to make alts because there's so many cool looking options. Mage to arch wizard? Psychic classes? Etc etc? Squeeee! *bounce* I'm excited just thinking about the possibilities, hehe =p
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I re-read my original post and realised I was very scant on details, so I will update some information to skill trees, although I have made mention of certain features of skill trees in other threads.
Each skill/spell can be trained to 20 ranks, and only then, can you quest to attain mastery of that particular skill/spell. Mastery of any skill will gain a greater bonus than the usual rank addition. For example, stone skin spell will provide 1.5% damage absorption per rank, so at rank 20, the stone skin will provide 30% damage reduction. However, if the caster has mastery of stone skin, the protection increases to 50% less damage.
Each rank will cost 1 practice to gain - this is different from my original post.
There isnt just one main trunk in which players then choose different branches. There are actually many various "trunks" for each class, and players can choose as many trunks as they have practices available. For example, a weapons trunk will have slashing/piercing/blunt proficiencies which will lead to specialisations in specific weapons ie. sword, short sword, dagger, spear, etc. A unarmed combat trunk will lead to various martial arts branches. So a warrior may choose a particular branch which will lead them to specialise in swords, and choose another branch in the unarmed trunk which will give them monkey style martial arts. In this case, the warrior must choose slashing proficiency (accuracy bonus for all slashing type weapons) --> sword proficiency (accuracy bonus for swords only) --> sword specialisation (damage bonus for swords only), and also choose unarmed combat --> monkey stance (basic monkey fighting style) --> then various special monkey attacks (a few branches here for the warrior to choose from).
A player can choose any pathway they wish, as long as they have practiced the skill leading to it. A warrior cannot just choose sword specialisation without choosing the previous branches (in this case, slashing proficiency and sword proficiency).
Right now, all spells are categorised into 10 spheres, which I think is quite excessive, but thats besides the point. I am undecided whether to allow mages to just practice ranks in a particular sphere and they gain ALL the spells in those spheres, or the mages have to learn ranks in individual spells. I am leaning towards the latter option, as that will create a greater variety of mages. I will also compensate the latter option by providing more pracs for mages.
A wonderful example of this is, say mage casts a rank 15 wall of force, blocking people from going east. Another mage with rank 15 dispel magic will have 50/50 chance of dispelling that wall of force, whereas a mage with rank 5 dispel magic will have little chance of dispelling it. Same principle applies for someone with detect invisibility against a foe with invisibility spell. So it pays to have higher ranks for a particular spell when you are competing against other casters.
With this option, players will now get to choose whether to specialise in a defensive mage or combative mage, or be an all-rounder. As a previous example of this, an all-rounder may only have 10 ranks in stone skin, providing only 15% damage reduction, whereas a specialist defensive mage may have mastery of stone skin, providing them with a 50% damage reduction. Also, if a mage attains mastery in all spells in a particular sphere, they will become an elemental master and will gain special bonuses in that sphere!
With such a variety of characters for each class, players will need to find a good balance when they group together on hunts. It will be very interesting whether you need a bunch of specialists, or whether a group of all-rounders will prove more effective. Or perhaps, a mixture of both?
Just to be clear, we will retain our existing classes. Each class will have a selection of trunks in their skill tree list, some trunks will be exclusive, while there may be some trunks that are across several classes. There will also be general skill trunks available to all classes, for example, perception, athletics, crafting skills (armour and weapon making), etc.
I hope this clarifies some things.
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I believe it does quite a bit. Thank you for taking the time and letting everyone know what's going on in the background with this idea.
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Very good post. Nice to have a quite detailed plan of what's going down as far as skill trees go.
A question: what do you plan on doing regarding practice sessions themselves? How many will a player gain every level? Do you plan on altering the amount of sessions a player will gain every level - something like, 2 every level until level 50 and then 1 every level until level 100? Or even something like 3 every level until level 10, 2 every level until level 20, 1 every level until level 50 and then 1 every 5 levels until level 75 and then 1 every 10 levels until level 95 and then 1 on level 100?
Depending on how you distribute practices we will be able to alter the gradient of the difficulty level of 4d as a character progresses. With the latter option I came up with on the spot, it would make it much easier for new players until about level 50, as well as a lot more interesting until at least level 20 as players would have something to do every single level.
This also sort of ties in with how you plan on making the experience curve itself, currently a character has gained about half of the experience required to remort at level 42/50, making it much easier to get the majority of skills or spells a remort has to offer. Where do you plan on putting the halfway mark as far as experience goes in the 100 level system?
I like to know how these curves look. :)
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XP per level and pracs gained will be tinkered around during ptesting, so I have no definitive answer. Generally, I'd like to see that a generalist player can have enough pracs to have 8 ranks in all their class specific skills/spells. In terms of XP, that is dependent on how well players fare in the new system against the existing mobs. I will have to discuss with the builders, but I believe some areas were designed for groups.
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Some areas were designed for groups, and a couple were specifically designed for the uber players by Sonya.
What needs to be looked at is how many of these uber mobs are going to be effected by this change. Will their tiers be taken away? Will their levels be appropriately calculated to create enough challenge for players without catering to only the uber/more skilled players?
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Cool, thanks Horus.
Which areas were designed specifically for groups?
I'm fairly sure tiers will be removed from the game completely, not 100% sure though but I don't think it'd be all that hard to convert tiers to their appropriate level in the new system. Might take a little alterations but I think it should definitely be done if we're removing tiers from players. As far as places like Dark Planet and Dragon Caves and places go, I think they should stay as catering only to the more uber players. Voltron and Gojira I imagine will stay being extremely hard to kill and aimed at the best level 100 players or groups. I just don't think they should be giving out such ridiculously high-powered rewards. But that should be changing so I think it's under control.
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The three so called Uber zones, (Dark Planet, Dragon Caves and Prehistoric Forest), were all meant for strong groups, although it seems that some players became so uber that they soloed them.
Other areas that were originally designed as hunting zones for groups, (although for a bit weaker players), are Starwars, and the Ocean zones in PreHistoric. Scriptloaded mobs, like the ones in Midlands and the desert of Wawat, would serve a similar purpose. I remember when players used to level on the archers of the Olde Yorke city wall, and in the past Downunder was also a popular goal for groups, but these seem to have gone a bit out of fashion. Nowadays it's mostly the dock workers in VE that people choose as targets for mass kill. And recently we also have the newly introduced Invasion feature, for group endeavors.
Actually any not too quest-heavy zone, with a large enough supply of mobs, or any hard-to-kill 'Boss Mob', would work fine for groups of various strength.
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To be honest I think tiers fucked things up a lot in that department. It was really hard to go through and introduce tiers to the game in a balanced and thorough way. Some mobs were missed and some mobs became too tough to bother levelling with, etc. (Graypatch from Terramort is a good example of a 'boss' mob that never got tiered and stopped being a boss at all).
It ended up narrowing the areas people level at to those with tier 0, high level mobs in packed places. Aussie ended up having tier 0 but not high enough level mobs so they weren't worth the exp, same with Starwars. The Dock Workers in VE though are of the right strength and exp to be worthwhile. It comes back to the general problems with tiers, creating huge strength differences between players and mobs.
Tier 0: Levels 0-125
Tier 1: Levels 0-125
Tier 2: Levels 0-125
Tier 3: Levels 0-125
Tier 4: Levels 0-125
I forget what the highest mob level is, might be 175 or something. But looking at that it's very hard to balance tiers because all the ranges overlap in their strength. Tier 0: Level 125 is going to be stronger than Tier 1: Level 75 or Tier 2: Level 50, or even Tier 4: Level 15, but as soon as you get Tier 1: Level 125 it's pretty much pointless to level against, the experience isn't worth the hassle unless you've got a Priest around or are GM, and any Tier 2: Level 100 is going to rip a whole group apart if the group isn't paying attention enough to flee. Basically any high level tiered mobs become 'boss' mobs and experience gained from a fight is determined mainly by level (I think), so the only worthy mobs to fight are high level, Tier 0 mobs.
Hopefully when we switch to a 100 level system mobs will move to something similar, maybe a 175 level system or something, in which it's easy for builders to set levelling mobs at about 100 or so, boss mobs at anywhere between 150 and 175 etc. They won't have to worry about figuring out what level and what tier is appropriate.
And yeah, Sonya and Mord were a terrible team.. Sonya would make some uber zone and then encourage Mord to make the top players even stronger. She was a bad influence. :P
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hahaha I totally agree.
We need mobs back to what they were like in old code. There are just so many zones that were made useless when this system came in. I mean, does anyone actually level in Death Star or the Ewoks anymore? Now THOSE were classic leveling zones.
We need old mob level styles back :D
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These days it seems there are a few zones that have a high concentration of good eq, good potions, good mobs to level at, etc. It's sad when we have such a huge and awesome world and only about 10% of it is ever seen.
I have high hopes for the changes.
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Going to unsticky this topic as well.
Prometheus