4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Grish on July 31, 2008, 03:07:06 pm
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I strongly disagree with the latest moving of brace and parry in order to tweak GM's. IMO this is a crappy way to make adjustments to GM. The end focus of the game is to get GM, and not have the game made more difficult on the way as you make end game class balancing to GMs. Its not fair to those of us who arent GMs to have bread and butter skills ripped away as we fight to level and get those precious remorts.
I recently remorted to hunter from warrior, and at tier 2 level 35, the only thing I still have with me is from warrior that is note worthy is grip. Thats a pretty damn harsh change to take a tier one skill all the way to tier 3.
Im sure with a little coding you could just make some skills anti GM so you could maintain class balance and unless that GM actually is a class, or was a class that had the skills (or others you want to move around) and remorted it would not be an issue.
This would not only fix the issue I have with this specific change, but it could open doors to maybe let some of those tier 3 skills trickle down into tier 2 and balance things out a bit.
It is my experience thus far that every class sucks until tier 3 with the exception of priest which rocked pretty good right out of the gates.
Another idea would be a customizable GM system which allows GMs to have a certain amount of points to spend in certain trees, and by purchasing some skills it would make gaining others impossible. This would take a lot of changing, but an idea.
So, please take time to consider all the people in the middle of the game, and not just the ones at the end.
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GM is not the end focus of this game.
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Hehe Virisin I would think most players would disagree with that but to each his or her own.
Prometheus.
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GM is not the end focus of this game.
If not GM than what is the "end focus" of this game?
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Oh god I told Mord this would occur..
If the common opinion really is that GM is the endpoint to the game then 4d truly is lost.
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Don't get me wrong, 4d has a rich environment of questing, features and fun stuff. However, while you enjoy these things, you generally are gaining XP, new fancy gear to help you get XP faster, and leveling through the classes getting your mastery bonuses, also helping you advance quicker and survive longer.
That being said, even once you are a GM there is still a lot of the game to enjoy. BUT, if the end point wasnt to be GM why waste the time questing and grinding when you can just sit around idle.
Correct me if I am wrong, but why is it you rarely see the older folks doing anything? Is it because the have completed the quests, made their money, and really dont see a lot of reason to remort or continue leveling?
As all you GMs read this, try to tell me you werent more active while you were like me, with a few remorts under your belt and a ton more game to see on your way to achieving GM. I rarely actually see any of the GMs actually doing anything other than idling.
I dont know, either way you want to look at it I dont think balancing the game around GMs by taking away bread and butter skills of any class and just making it a T3 level 1 skill a fix. Like I said, it would be better balance to let some of those t3 skills trickle down a bit into tier 2 allowing for better balanced classes then taking everything away.
I mean, hell while you are at it we could just make all the non passive skills tier 3 and get it over with, because thats almost what it feels like. Luckily as a hunter I got cure critic now to heal the excessive ass kicking I have been taking.
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Exactly.
All the GM's these days stop playing after having barely dabbled in the actual game. Or if they have, it's over MSN where they solve all the quests the 'new' way.
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Viri, try not to generalize :)
I've done most of the quests after I GMed, because I'm a lazy person, and dislike to carry potions and such on me.
I would think the main purpose in 4D would be to fully explore every zone and complete every quest ; otherwise, it would just be like any other mud, grinding to hit maximum level. The tokens and equip are just bonuses :)
It's true that I idle about in recall these days, but I have a somewhat hectic schedule these days, so I have less time to MUD.
However, I think what the mud needs is to overcome its inertia of having few new players. Players come in, and either stay in the MUD, or leave, due to frustration of completing some quests. We can help yes, but only limited to questing techniques and referring to room descs. As such, we gain very few players. Now..if we had many new players coming on together at the same time, with a greater number of them staying *as well* (at least, for a short period of time), this in turn could make more players stay on in 4D and continue on questing, due to the perceived idea of the majority in the same boat (ie, haven't solved any of the quests).
Iwku, Grish, Knecht are examples of players (in my opinion), who haven't hit GM yet, but still continue on questing, and I believe that none of them solve any quests in the 'new' way.
Oh and..warrior (after the changes), looks like the worst class (for T1-T2s) at least, with lack of any helpful (unique) skills at T1 and T2.
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Let me just further make Erwins point:
Tier: 0 - Lev: 25 - Skill or Spell: 'firearm'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 1 - Skill or Spell: 'melee'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 2 - Skill or Spell: 'kick'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 2 - Skill or Spell: 'mount'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 3 - Skill or Spell: 'riding'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 5 - Skill or Spell: 'hand-to-hand'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 12 - Skill or Spell: 'sling'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 12 - Skill or Spell: 'push'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 20 - Skill or Spell: 'crossbow'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 22 - Skill or Spell: 'throw'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 24 - Skill or Spell: 'tame'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 24 - Skill or Spell: 'drunk'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 27 - Skill or Spell: 'rescue'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 27 - Skill or Spell: 'dual'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 45 - Skill or Spell: 'bash'
Tier: 1 - Lev: 49 - Skill or Spell: 'grip'
Tier: 2 - Lev: 9 - Skill or Spell: 'disarm'
Tier: 2 - Lev: 12 - Skill or Spell: 'retreat'
Tier: 2 - Lev: 14 - Skill or Spell: 'mounted combat'
Tier: 2 - Lev: 30 - Skill or Spell: 'meditate'\
And TY Erwin for having faith in me doing things the classic ways, you have sat in on a few of my rants and raves while I struggle to complete quests, and you are correct in the means in which you helped me. You often suggested I try to use a certain technique, or told me zones which dont have the mazes and things like that to attempt. Because of your general direction I have completed a few quests which otherwise I might not have tried (RIP in particular).
I like Knecht to, we gotta keep him around.
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There is a flaw in the general skills/spells distribution. But you have kick, you should be fine.
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Then, what makes warrior unique compared to say, hunter or ranger? They have kick too. (+ other buffs at T1/T2)
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Nothing. I said there was a flaw..
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Which is what my point was in the begining, the flaw isnt in what skills the classes get, its the fact that to "fix" gms you just push them all to later tiers. Hence, why I made this post to address the issue and perhaps get something done about it.
There has got to be a semi easy snippet of code which will restrict certain skills and spells from the GM unless it is their primary class.
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Why not just remove GMs having access to T1/T2 skills/spells of all classes, only letting them retain their mastery bonuses?
Or, just let them have the T1/T2 skills/spells of their primary class type, eg, fighter, caster, rogue?
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Well, thats prolly not the fairest either since im sure a lot of GMs rely on the cure crits, mirror shields etc etc.
But since obviously its clear which skills/spells the immortals dont want them to have (prolly any skill/spell in levels 1-10 of tier 3), it should be easy to identify which bread and butter skills should not be allowed to all gms.
Also, im sure a lot of GMs would be weakened quite a bit if all skills/spells were removed.
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Also, im sure a lot of GMs would be weakened quite a bit if all skills/spells were removed.
That's the goal. It's in fact not only not unfair, it's the most fair possibility.
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So pretty much, GM would be worthless and unless a class had a specific bonus you wanted there would be no need to take it? For example, once I got all my -damage recieved and +magic damage outgoing I could just remort priest and not have to take thief ever because +100 attack points I wouldnt never need?
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Pretty much. Why should we force players to play as a class they don't enjoy playing in order to remain competitive?
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Also I am in the process (probably 70% done) of making it so technically GM's will no longer be able to use all tier 1/2 skills/spells. No, it's not as large of a change as that might sound like which is why I didn't see what other people thought before starting. I am NOT taking away any spells that they have now, I'm just adding a new argument to the skillo and spello macroes and altering the check from checking tiers to checking the value of that bit. I put all tier 3/4 skills/spells as 0 and 1/2 as 1 so essentially GM's can still cast all tier 1/2 skills, but it's because of the value of that bit and not directly because they are tier 1 or 2. What does this mean if you're a GM as of today? Nothing, you still have all the same skills/spells. What it does mean is we can now take skills/spells away from GM's without altering their level/tier. (I plan to lower brace, parry and mana shield back soon and set their value to 0 so GM's can't use them.)
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Wondering if when this change goes live some further balancing of classes will be done to allow a little better transition from T1-T2 to the upper tiers. For example its pretty clear advanced melee was a skill that you did not want GMs to have, will skills like that maybe come into play now in the upper tier 2, or do you just plan to replace the few skills which were recently ripped away. I know this tier 2 hunter remort has been lame, and if that skill became an option earlier it might make those last 10 levels or so a tad bit easier.
IMO this opens up a little bit of room to do a little more balancing like I suggested, and shuffle a few skills around to make midlife a little easier. At this point from my experiences with Grish as a pure melee character thus far, the middle tiers after a remort really leave a lot to desire.
While on the subject, I am curious why warriors dont get shortblade, yet rangers get both short and long. IMO warriors/hunters should be a master of melee combat, regardless of what the size of their weapon is.
One more thing, is parry fuggered? I never ever see mine trigger, regardless if short or long weapon in primary. I had this problem before, then it suddenly started to work, and then poof no parry messages anymore.
And one last thing, Kudos for hearing my cries for a fix, im sure it has been a big ol pain right square in your ass, but your effort really is appreciated, at least by me who has a long way to go before i see GM. So as the golen girls would say... thank you for being a friiiiend!
Edit:Afterthought
Ya know what might not be bad for realism, and good RP of the class values? Instead of giving all the classes that get certain skills and spells all at the exact same level, give them to each class in a unique, yet logical location. I will use advanced melee as an example, every class that can use it gets it at the exact same level. Where if classes were real professions certain classes would be capable of the skill or spell miles before others, my thoughts on that progression would be something like this: (just throwing a bit of randomness here)
Warrior T2-Level 25
Hunter -T2-Level 40
Thief T2-Level 50
Ranger T3-Level 10
Gypsy T3- level 25
This is an example of the possibilities which are being opened up, im not saying there is anything wrong with it, but it could make for stronger classes in certain times and points of their remorts. And in the end with a change like I made an example of, the only class which gets a push back is Gypsy, which 15 levels that early in a remort is not really that far at all.
/grain of salt.
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im sure it has been a big ol pain right square in your ass
Not too bad, all said and done the patch that I commited to the repository was 1,050 lines long, only took 3-4 hours total, maybe a bit less even.