4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Virisin on November 09, 2009, 04:39:26 pm
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Pretty basic, would you support a PWipe, yes or no. If you're a current player would it cause you to leave, if you're an oldbie that doesn't really actually play anymore, would it cause you to come back and do stuff again?
If you chose depends, explain what it depends on, say, if you'd support a pwipe if it were coupled with some big system change or whatever.
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For me it just depends on if we would lose our perzes and so on, or be given token compensation if we do. Some of us more token poor players like to cling to what we have earned.
For me losing mana, and mv doesn't bother me in the least. I'd hate to lose the GM bonuses I busted my ass for, but hey... if it's for the good of the mud, and skill trees get put in...and PK gets fixed, and everything is generally on a road to being balanced, yeah sure I'll support a pwipe.
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If (very, very strong if because no one ever listens to me anyway) we have a pwipe, I'd be very much against any tokens/gold/perzes/houses carrying over. I don't mind if they stay 'in the game' as long as they had to be bought back at the correct prices. Reason:
If I get to keep 3 houses say, as well as all my perzes, but I don't keep my equipment, I'm obviously going to go get all my equipment back, and while I'm at it I'll finish all the other quests I've done. Meaning I'll end up with something like 10 gold tokens again, and I don't have anything to spend them on. That's the kind of thing that ruins a pwipe right from the start, unbalances things immediately and causes inflation from the get go.
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What about clans? And clan leaders? Do clans get completely wiped? How do we decide who runs the clans post pwipe?
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I'd be for wiping Mordonosse to be honest.. And removing Wamphyre from clan info because it's not a real clan. Otherwise current clan leaders would lead clans post pwipe and they'd stay.
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So people who have politicked their way into clan leadership will get to keep some power, but everyone else will have their perzes, houses, etc destroyed?
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I voted Yes. I don't think anything should be carried over but clans. If we were to get rid of the clans then I would say there should be some way of preserving the ones we have. And as time goes on and we attain more players slowly open up new clans, or prior existing ones back up. As for leaders, either keep them the same, or simply hold a vote. Have the mud vote for whom they think is most appropriate as that leader. Only fair?
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So people who have politicked their way into clan leadership will get to keep some power, but everyone else will have their perzes, houses, etc destroyed?
Ok, I agree, Once should have CL of Vampires removed, everyone else should keep their clan leadership. :-*
I don't really mind to be honest, I don't think clans should be deleted and I'm not fussed how people sort out who should be clan leader of who, I just don't think being a clan leader gives any inherent advantages compared to not being a clan leader, and so it's not something that matters if it carries over from a pwipe. It's not as if you pay tokens to become a clan leader and so you're gaining a benefit and being able to get tokens back, politicking can always happen and is not restricted by anything.
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I dunno, seeing that it is bloody hard to get tokens now then it was back then, I wouldn't like the idea of having a pwipe. Unless I could throw all my items in a vault or something then I wouldn't mind that. Or they allow us to lumberjack again for tokens. >_>
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Well, a problem currently is that it was very hard to get tokens, and then it was very easy, and then it was very hard again. And a lot of people exploited the time when it was very easy, meaning some people have houses and things and don't even deserve them. Tokens are actually meant to be hard to get, a house is meant to be a huge reward and unfortunately, with the amount of bugs this code has had there are a lot of things - not only tokens - that some players have had the advantage of just being active at the time of the bug to be able to exploit. This means some players will simply never have the chance to get lots of the things some of the older players have.
I think if we do end up implementing the new skill trees system the other thread talks about it would be a great time to equalize everything and really rejuvenate the mud. I am of course open to counter arguments, because although I'm almost never wrong.. No, to be honest I'm never wrong and this poll is just a facade. :P
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Oh, I forgot to say I'd play again, because I"d have something new to do!
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Thotter agrees he'd play again, as does Asmodeus. Pwipe seems quite nice currently. I want to hear what everyone thinks though.
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While pwipes sound pretty nice, isn't it just the same as deleting your character and starting over again? I've done that twice myself (once because I was hacked another cause I hadn't logged on in awhile) and it never actually changed the game for me. Sure it might have helped me figure out what classes to start out with or remort to, but it never made the whole leveling process fun again. It is still as tedious and time consuming as ever (especially since I started out as a caster and pretty much all I had to do was copy paste everything 1000x times to kill a mob. There was really no strategy). So my only concern is with this pwipe, will there be any changes to make leveling actually exciting? Hopefully I'm not the only person that thinks leveling is god awful boring in its current state. >>
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This pwipe would go along with the said class system, tier tree changes. So a whole new system will be in place. Making levelling a whole new experience for everyone.
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Oi virisin, don't misrepresent my opinion.
I said that a pwipe would be an awesome chance to really balance the game and all that, but that it would not be worth it if it completely killed the player base.
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This pwipe would go along with the said class system, tier tree changes. So a whole new system will be in place. Making levelling a whole new experience for everyone.
If that's so then I'll definitely be for a pwipe. I just didn't like the idea of losing everything just to play the same game again. >>
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It definitely wouldn't be just to play the same game again. It'd be part of a real balancing process at the end of playtesting quite a different (and much better) system.
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Thotter agrees he'd play again, as does Asmodeus.
Hey, i'll drag myself into this discussion when I'm good and ready!
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So what is this proposal now that it's got feedback?
Pwipe, no house, no perzes, no tokens, clan leaders voted back into power? Retain their old power?
What's going to change the game such to be worthy of a pwipe? Can the pwipe be avoided through smart planning in the rebalancing? Will the pwipe serve as a source of rejuvenation for getting old players active again?
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So what is this proposal now that it's got feedback?
Pwipe, no house, no perzes, no tokens, clan leaders voted back into power? Retain their old power?
What's going to change the game such to be worthy of a pwipe? Can the pwipe be avoided through smart planning in the rebalancing? Will the pwipe serve as a source of rejuvenation for getting old players active again?
Full pwipe like we should have had with the first code change. No houses, no perzes, no tokens, clan leaders probably stay in power, no equipment, no flags, complete character file deletion. Houses can stay in the game, sure, but in order to regain the ownership of them, you must buy them back.
If the changes go ahead they could be relatively large as far as gaming experience goes, removing GM, removing tiers, removing remorts, switching to a 100 level system and revamping skills by basically limiting practices so players must make decisions on what they want their character to end up as. This will come with proper balancing, don't worry it won't just end up with everything being harder or easier, just slightly different. Getting 100 levels could take as much experience as GM does now, although I'd prefer around half as much max. Also equipment would likely be rebalanced, as it is there is a high concentration of the 'best eq' situated in the most recently built zones which is not a good thing. It should go back to being the hardest quests give the best equip.
I'd like to think it would rejuvenate the game, currently I think almost any change would despite a minority of players who hate any and all change. I've already heard from Thotter/Asmodeus/Xeriuth that a pwipe is about the only thing that could get them playing again, I think it'd be like that for a lot of oldbies who have nothing to do these days. Coupled with a clan change... It is a rather large change.
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Add a comment with the negative vote Jason so we can start a proper discussion about it please.
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so all the YEARS of gathering gear, they will simply poof?
now thats a douche idea.. worst ive heard in a LONG time. >:(
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Oh yeah and i vote that old farts like Virisin
shouldn't be able to start douched out Polls.
just cause he got spring break and wanna act all freaky.
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Gathering gear should be about the least of your worries to be honest, there are death-traps in the game which also make gear just go 'poof'. As a PKer you should also be willing to put your equipment on the line. If you know how to do the quests, you should already have a huge advantage over people that don't, and if you don't.. Hooray, you get the joy of re-learning them. They're actually quite fun. ;)
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Why on earth would i want to redo everything ive done?
hell no not for all the tokens special gear in the world.
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Because all you do currently is sit at recall. It's all anyone does really because no one needs to do anything anymore. GM made you all lazy. The best thing about this game is racing to do things, to be the first or the best at something, or the fastest. Having challenges spurs everyone else on.
Also, I think if we have a big system overhaul, without having a pwipe we may miss a lot of bugs or imbalances at the lower levels. Us oldbies are the best at judging how well something is working. Well, I am anyway, not you. :-*
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I'd like to think it would rejuvenate the game, currently I think almost any change would despite a minority of players who hate any and all change. I've already heard from Thotter/Asmodeus/Xeriuth that a pwipe is about the only thing that could get them playing again, I think it'd be like that for a lot of oldbies who have nothing to do these days. Coupled with a clan change... It is a rather large change.
Quit misrepresenting what I said.
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I'd like to think it would rejuvenate the game, currently I think almost any change would despite a minority of players who hate any and all change. I've already heard from Thotter/Asmodeus/Xeriuth that a pwipe is about the only thing that could get them playing again, I think it'd be like that for a lot of oldbies who have nothing to do these days. Coupled with a clan change... It is a rather large change.
Quit misrepresenting what I said.
Oi virisin, don't misrepresent my opinion.
I said that a pwipe would be an awesome chance to really balance the game and all that, but that it would not be worth it if it completely killed the player base.
Well, we barely have a playerbase, and it seems so far that only one member of the current playerbase (Jason) disagrees with a pwipe. I do expect Britnoth and Estidn to oppose however, and it's likely Kita would too. I'm saying that you support the idea of a pwipe, and you have said that you would probably play again if there was a pwipe. Obviously if it killed the playerbase entirely I don't think anyone would continue to play, that's a given - hence why I'm making this thread to determine if we would have a playerbase afterwards.
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the only thing I don't like is loss of houses and mounts. There really isn't a reason why anyone should lose those as it doesn't really unbalance anything. Just go in, wipe the houses of gear (excluding all containers, furniture and so on).
Gear can always be regained, but things like awards people have earned over the years, houses, and mounts shouldn't be touched at all because those took a lot of effort to get, and are huge badges of honor. I'm still a bit iffy about the loss of peoples tokens as well..
I guess I'd really have to see what the coders think. I'd really like their input on the whole matter since they're the ones putting a new system together.
Also a HUGE note to everyone: If any system is finally put together it's going to be tested on the test port FIRST. So don't freak out or anything.
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I think if a pwipe doesn't include houses and things it isn't worth doing. Houses and mounts and things are earned through tokens which are earned through quests. The quests are still out there, and you're going to end up doing them again for the equipment, if you already have a house it just leads to you having nothing to do with your tokens and devalues them by inflating them. I would not support a pwipe if it didn't include the total destruction of tokens, houses and perzes. Otherwise it just creates unbalance right from the get-go and is just an experience and equipment reset which is more annoying than rejuvenating.
I think the a pwipe should really be looked at as a rejuvenating thing: I think the mud has more to lose by not pwiping than it does by pwiping. People like Hayato drift off for months at a time, some of those players return for a while, some don't. Of course a pwipe is not going to be celebrated by every single player, but I think the fact that it would give a lot of players who are bored of the place something to do again is worth more than the couple of players who are too lazy to do everything again, who don't do anything currently anyway.
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Just keep the house and perzes intact, and close off any exits from houses to the zones they're currently connected to so you don't have to remake them when you want to buy them again. So many people only have houses nowadays because it was so easy to get tokens a while back, and owning a house doesn't have any real significance behind it anymore.
Ask yourself, do you really want to be a statistic on 4D, as one of several dozens of homeowners, or do you have what it takes to earn it back from a blank slate?
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my vote regarding pwipe is NO for sure
i mean seriously , i worked my ass , havent slept in nights to get that gm and now you wanna erase it for?
we have this player issue anyway and now you wanna make all to lvl 1 , id say more will quit then imagined
at least i would for sure
and regarding clan pwipe , no again , all clans have their history , why would you do that?
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Either way GM is going to be removed so that's not really an arguing point. It's one of the crappiest most unbalancing and detrimental parts of our current system.
There is no proposed clan pwipe, not sure where you got that from. Clans will stay in the game, except perhaps Mordonosse if there is no active leader, and it shouldn't be hard for clans to re-enroll members.
And yeah, I agree with Hayato.
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Actually really surprised Britnoth voted 'yes but only if a pwipe came in after a huge change not before'. Grateful though. :-*
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Just to weigh on this issue as a player, and not as a decision maker, I currently have 46 remorts, have done all the major eq quests, and I think having a pwipe isnt as big a issue as you think. Once skill trees are in, the game play is so different that you wont appreciate it as much if you dont remake.
Its like joining WoW and someone gave you a spare high ranking character with uber eq and you have never played WoW before. The appreciation of WoW wont be the same unless you earned everything yourself.
And lets be totally honest with ourselves here, the game play on 4d is a huge grind. It really does not need to be stretched over 31 remorts before you reach GM - thats alot of very repetitive play. Alot of you oldbies dont realise how much of a grind it is because you went through certain periods where xp was easy to gain compared to now. And whats worse, at least my character can kill things quite quickly, I really feel for Sarias etc who cant solo Punt too easily and so has to grind at half speed.
So either way, I dont really care. I am quite neutral with this, but I think you will miss out on the appreciation of what will be implemented. And remember that sense of achievement the first time around you played 4d? You have totally lost that by now, so I dont see why you keep wanting to hang on. Seriously, thats why you have moved on elsewhere, and only come back because of the emotional/social pull of old friends and not because of the current game play.
So why not change it so that you are actually also back for the game play. I can only entertain you so much before you get sick of my rants, and so I hope the game play on 4d will entertain you during these times :)
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Sometimes it makes me cry thinking of giving up over 20billion gold, 11gold tokens, 71 remorts, 3 houses, lots of perzes, quite a few alts, mules, treasures galore. But it'll be a fresh experience. And it really dosn't bother me. I can easily earn back everything I own. And in a fraction of the time I did it before. Why? Because the only advantage which I think is a huge advantage is knowing the game, knowing the world. Knowledge is power?
I think when ones says that they put a lot of time to get GM, isn't important. I mean didn't we all do that for our remorts, to a degree? I think if the change has merit and is a good change, and pwipe will set everyone on total equal footing, just do it anyways. We'll get some old players back, and the naysayers will leave. In the end we only gain from it, in that respect. And I don't have a problem with that. Especially if we start keeping all the new players that come and building a more solid player base.
I'm sure even people who would vote know would still stick around, because it'd be something new, fun, and exciting. But we shall see. This won't happen for a bit anyways, I wouldn't expect it to be anytime this year. Perhaps next :)
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No, I just don't buy it. Houses (I don't even have one) have had a lot of effort put into them. More effort than questing in fact. I see no reason why people should lose their home. It certainly wouldn't unbalance a thing. I mean, what is the worst it could do...people store more junk inside? Big woop. Houses are a HUGE investment especially for those of us who are token poor and just barely managed to afford one.
No, it's just not reasonable. You're forcing everyone to start over anyhow...having a house just means that they have just than many more tokens to earn later on that can go towards perzes, and/or a brand new mount.
just wipe the insides of the houses so that no uber/moderate gear is left over. Forcing people to lose absolutely everything is complete crap, especially for those relics out there who might try and log on only to find out their own house has been flushed down the crapper. Mott certainly wouldn't be happy. Get her a new system, she'll come back. Get her a new system, and destroy her house, you'll never see her log in.
people aren't necessarily tied to their EQ. They're tied to their homes. I say leave the homes alone.
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If only homes and clans remain in tact I have no problem, we just think it sets those of us with houses or even multiple house on equal footing with those who don't. If the populus dosn't mind that aspect I'd be ok with it, but tokens, gold etc should be x'd. To have a fresh economy.
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One problem I can forsee though, with not keeping tokens and keeping houses, one can just make sure they spend all their tokens on their house before the change over, only because they know that the tokens will be wasted otherwise... What to do about that?
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As a casual player with an actual affinity for real life, I oppose the idea of having my things obliterated. My character? Sure, wipe her out. She rolled really crappy stats at creation and should have been destroyed long ago. I have no objection to having to construct a custom skill set when the new system is implemented.
My mount, house, perzes, whatever? Psh, it took me years to collect the tokens to have those made, and I haven't grown bored enough of them to just say, " Yeah, let's all be equal. Just make all my past efforts obsolete." I haven't got all the time in the world to customize my character again, nor will I spend the time that can be much better spent doing something that's actually productive. If it ushers in another golden age of gaming, then so be it. I'll take one for the team, but I will be crestfallen. I have this unsettling suspicion, however, that a pwipe isn't going to reignite people's interest or ambition toward the lost art of mudding.
I voted yes nonetheless. Who knows what the future will bring?
This message has been edited to sound less bitchy. You're welcome.
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Toch, there are multiple people out there that abused lumberjacking and have a house after doing 0 quests. That is not 'a lot of effort'. Those people have removed the awesomeness of houses these days, I don't feel special having multiple houses, everyone has one. Keeping houses WOULD unbalance things, it would start us off with a broken economy, let me explain:
Ideally, there is a maximum number of tokens in the 4d economy that depends on the playerbase. Let's say the total potential tokens one player can gain from all the quests in 4d is 10 gold tokens, and we have a playerbase of 10 people. That gives us a potential maximum amount of gold tokens of 100. If we let all the oldbies come into the the game with houses, they have literally half the amount of things to spend the tokens on, so most oldbies will have 5 gold tokens spare with nothing to use them on. This means they'd be willing to sell them for a smaller amount of cash than someone who had 0 spare tokens which ends up dropping the price of tokens all round and low-and-behold, deflated token value.
This is all despite the fact that there are already inputs into that equation from newbies who gain a couple and then end up being exploited by oldbies like Once before leaving, and that imms sometimes give out tokens. Tokens are really, really, easy to get if you can do all the quests, that's the advantage we have over people that havn't done the quests.
Add to this the problems Xeriuth outlined which happened exactly like that on the old code switch-over. Everyone pooled tokens together and bought houses to have them save over to the new code.
I understand that tokens took a long time to gather, but they're all still out there and the only reason you can't go get them again currently is because you've already done the quests. In a new system, the quests will still be there and as will the tokens. If houses are saved over, what I see happening is people like Xeriuth and Hayato and many others who currently have over 10 gold tokens lying around will end up buying people houses in return for their tokens on the new code, which ends up screwing over the economy again.
I would be completely against a pwipe without a house wipe too, I don't want to just have all my experience removed, I hate levelling and I just think it's worth it to rebalance everything and set it all right again.
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I'm totally against pwipes. For the most part, I think it's stupid. If there's any "new" players playing this game, they've worked hard to get all their stuff recently gained taken away.
And the same goes for older players. I like the fact that I can still log in and keep playing because I know I have everything I need and have done the quests a billion times over to get those things.
Why purposely take away everything everyone has gained just so you can set everyone back to square one. It's bloody unfair on those that have worked hard to get what they have, including their perzs, the investment of time, and then to lose it all. Redoing quests over and over again isn't fun. It's not a motivation to come back and play just so you can re-get everything you already had before IMMs decided to delete everything...
I hate the idea of Pwipe, and I know I wouldn't be the only one. Work on other more active changes for the mud if you're trying to improve things, but don't go taking away stuff people have spent time working for. Let sleeping dogs lie...
I don't mind wiping actual toons per say, like setting everyone back to level 1. Whatever, thats cool with me. But the quest flags, the items, the wealth, the houses, the perzs, etc etc, wiping that stuff I dont agree with (like Kitolani said).
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let me first say i haven't voted yet... i'm on the fence, and since "on the fence" or "iffy" isnt an option, i currently abstain!
Why? for a few reasons. First, I am not one who abused the token thing... I worked hard for my tokens (and equipment) to buy a house and perzes. Lynx and I had to buy the house together because we didn't have enough tokens. And just giving up that stuff for all the hard work I've put in for years is an annoying thought.
"But Asmo, you can earn all the stuff back by doing quests," doesn't really convince me either. The point of questing (to me anyway) is to explore, find hidden things, figure out the secrets of the world I'm in, and to earn something for putting the pieces together. Yes, you go back and do those quests again if you hit a DT or whatever, but they're NEVER as much fun the 2nd or 3rd time around, you're just going through the motions (believe me, as someone who has hit plenty of DTs and spent a lot of time going back through quests for certain things). Now if you throw a pwipe into it, and have to go back and do them ALL again, from the short every day quests to the large week-long quests... I don't know how much of that I'd want to do again, just because its not as fun anymore. You might not remember at first what you're doing, but it'll come back. If all the quests were different, that would be a different story, but i'm not going to pretend for a second that that's a plausible idea.
I do like the idea of everyone restarting on a level playing field, and how it would fit in with the new system, but obviously as you can see, I'm torn. Hence Iffy/On the fence (not depends).
Convince me, i dare you ;)
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Natalya: To begin with, there are few new players in this game and most of the new players we get leave after about level 40 anyway. That's why we're making changes really, to try and keep new players with a better system. I do understand though that there are midbies out there who will be hit hard by this. People that havn't done all the quests, and havn't quite saved up enough tokens for houses yet, havn't got GM, but have stuck around. Britnoth and Sarias come to mind as midbie players, funnily enough both of them don't actually mind a pwipe. Maybe it's because they just trust our judgement (hah), I think it's more likely they're the ones actually playing the mud currently as opposed to us recall squatting oldbies, and realize that the mud is severely unbalanced and fucked at the moment and they'd love a pwipe to come with a rebalancing of the mud as well as a new system so they could show us who's boss.
The rest of your post I don't really understand, it seems to contradict itself. You apparently don't have time to redo everything again anymore and just enjoy coming on and being able to do one or two things here or there because you already have an established character, but then you say you're happy with a character wipe as long as you keep your house and your perzes and your quest flags. That strikes me as severely odd, the quests and things are the easiest things to redo, levelling on the other hand is boring and tedious and if you don't have all that much time, why the hell would you want to come on just to start levelling with what limited time you have? I don't mean to offend, and I could be wrong here but it seems to me that you're just suffering from nostalgia like Toch.
Asmo: You are such an indecisive fuck, :P (still love you). I know you're not one of the ones that abused anything, as far as tokens go, no one really did. Lumberjacking was a legitimate way of gaining tokens for a while and you can't really call people taking advantage of the way things work when they're not bugged at all 'abuse', but the fact remains that a lot of houses were gained that way and they took away from the value my own house had. Everyone seems to have a house these days, you're the odd one out if you don't have one, it's not special anymore. I honestly believe that you're remembering how hard it is to get tokens and a house the first time round, and not thinking about how easy it will be a second time around.
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Well. Idealy I don't particularly want a pwipe at all (obviously). I'm all for changes and such - I wasn't arguing making additions and putting in new changes and ideas to improve the MUD - I apologise if that came across as such. It's early morning, I wasn't really in the mood to sit down and write out a long drawn-out post about the topic.
Guess now I kinda have to, to some extent.
Ok. First. You not understanding why I'd be content with compromising on a pwipe whilst keeping belongings/flags etc? Because levelling - to me - means absolutely nothing. I can chill here, watch TV shows on my second monitor, and occasionally look over on the other screen whilst moving around automatically and hitting enter on "kill all". It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd almost go to the length to say I enjoy levelling. (Not entirely sure why that is, but.. yeah).
The quests and such however? Does take time. I started playing 4d when I was 12 or 13. I'm now 23 years old. Yes I've had a few breaks over the past 10 years or so, but end of the day, I've done most of the quests a fair amount, through various deletions and pwipes in the past. Also more to the point I attempt to redo quests often so I remember how I got the item to begin with (and then take notes heh). In fact, that's one thing I want to do now. I've got a fair amount of notes on most of the quests, but there's some I still need to redo.
And when you're starting out from nothing, when all you want to do, after so long of being on the game, is pop in, say hi, maybe do some grinding for the hell of it, or even some PVP/PKing fun, to know that after all that effort, I'm going to log in, have everything gone, and I've got to start from square one again? *Personally*? Screw that! To do certain quests, you need to level up, get better gears, do everything by yourself all over again. I'm not one to group with people and join forces and speed through things, I try to do everything alone. And for gods sake, all I want to do is login and have some fun, not have to struggle up doing quest after quest and level after level just so I can get everything back just so I can be halfway decent JUST so I can login and have some fun.
It's not motivational for me, at all. I've just started playing again and I have my own personal reasons for motivation, because there's still areas of which I can improve my character. There's still PVP opportunities, and people I'd like to see dead (xD). That's all I'm playing for currently.
Pwipe everything, take everything away, and I'm back at square one with absolutely nothing, no gear, no ability? Screw that, it's not worth the time to go do everything all over again. Like I said, I'm more than happy to grind when I have the time, and improve my toon that way, but redoing everything all over again? Maybe it takes you less than 5 minutes to get your full set of equipment back, but it's certainly not that quick for me.
This is a game. I want to pop on and enjoy what I've built up over the years, and have some fun, when I have the time. Even grind for levels. Wipe everything, and it's just not worth it. Not again.
Try some customer service for once. Look at some other bloody solutions rather than just putting everyone back to 0 in every way possible. Taking everything away from everyone, free game or not, is rediculous in my opinnion.
There. Is this post any better, now that I'm not rushing through it because I'm tired? -.-'
Edit: Also, I guess I have to admit, to an extent? I'm proud of what I have. The equips I've managed to get. I like that I can log in and still have everything I've done. Taking all that away just seems to cheapen the experience. I know it's just a game, but even the scandal bullshit with Once annoyed me enough. All I wanted to do was be left alone in the clan i was part of that I based my character around, and he had to go mess with that for absolutely no reason at all. Couldn't just leave me be, no, had to go demote me, then kick me out of vampires, then take CL - when he's not even active himself, and he's tier 1 with a bloody star next to his name and no equipment or anything ::). My point is, that ticked me off enough, and now you're talking about removing absolutely everything? Baaahhhh.
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Asmo: You are such an indecisive fuck, :P (still love you). I know you're not one of the ones that abused anything, as far as tokens go, no one really did. Lumberjacking was a legitimate way of gaining tokens for a while and you can't really call people taking advantage of the way things work when they're not bugged at all 'abuse', but the fact remains that a lot of houses were gained that way and they took away from the value my own house had. Everyone seems to have a house these days, you're the odd one out if you don't have one, it's not special anymore. I honestly believe that you're remembering how hard it is to get tokens and a house the first time round, and not thinking about how easy it will be a second time around.
Well let me clarify that 1: If i earned any tokens lumberjacking at all, it was the minimum amount (I dont even remember ever cutting down trees), and 2: I never "took advantage" of these methods as you're saying so many did. If I did, I'd have the number of tokens Xeriuth has (not saying he "took advantage" of anything, but he does have a lot of tokens, and thats the only point im trying to make!)
Now, just because everyone else got a house doesn't make me feel my house's value dropped. I was/am just happy i have a place to store things without worry, why should I feel upset that everyone and their mother has a house? How does that affect me? It doesn't, is the answer.
And finally, you target the wrong part of my argument. Of course itll be easier the second/third/fourth/fifth/etc time around, they're the same quests you've already done (you should be worried if it gets harder!). Its not about it being easy, its about it being boring. Questing should be new, fun, challenging, and exciting, especially if you have to earn back EVERYTHING (equipment, tokens, etc) you earned from the beginning. But its not, its just repeating the things you've done, going through the motions. If people liked doing quests they've already done when they didnt have to get their equipment back, you wouldn't see people at recall all the time, they'd be out repeating their favorite quests on some sort of regular basis. But last time I checked, that doesn't happen.
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A PWipe might mean you get your clan back Nat, depending on what would happen with clans but a vote seems like a likely option. :P
And I for one do happen to have at least 10 or so spare sets of equip Asmo, I love repeating all those quests. :-X
I'll reply properly later, I'm a little bored of writing long posts atm. I think I'm coming up with a reasonably good solution though that should satisfy all of us.
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And I for one do happen to have at least 10 or so spare sets of equip Asmo, I love repeating all those quests. :-X
Just because YOU like doing quests almost solely for the end result doesn't mean the process isn't just as important as the reward for other people ;)
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Whilst I'd like to be back in Vampires as I did create this character specifically to BE a vamp (leader or not isn't the point, I was more than happy to be retired because I went inactive), that's not, nor should it be, a motivation for a pwipe.
I'm saying pretty much the same stuff Asmo and Kit and others have said, I'm just chiming in.
Love all the new change ideas, the skill trees, etc, but please don't waste our time removing absolutely everything we've built up over the years -.-' Levelling I can do. But having to do everything all over again? I guess it comes down to personal opinnion. Like asmo said, it's the same for me - it'd just be going through the damn motions. I wanna do new different stuff, the thought of having to re-get everything I already very contently have, makes me want to shoot myself in the foot =p
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Ha! =p
Devram says, 'pwipes is a really awful solution'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin asks, 'did I get one?'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin clambers to his feet.
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin walks east.
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Devram says, 'laziest solution too'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>agree dev
You agree with everything that Devram suggests.
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>'thats what im trying to say =/
Virisin says, 'holy shit Alayna got a boba'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
You say, 'thats what I'm trying to say =/'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin says, 'that makes me not want mine anymore'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Tocharaeh says, '- I think pwipes can be avoided -'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin says, 'let's pwipe boba's woohoo'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>agree toc
You agree with everything that Tocharaeh suggests.
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Tocharaeh says, '- alayna got it because I was inactive. Sorry -'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Devram says, 'if you going to pwipe you might as well just start a new mud'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>agree dev
You agree with everything that Devram suggests.
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Virisin says, 'You guys are all assholes and I hate you all'
................
Tocharaeh says, '- based upon horus' intended improvements...pwipe shouldn't be necessary at all now tat I am thinking about it. -'
3250H 31547M 19397V (100) 317,034,364TNL 0D>
Devram says, 'but pwiping and "upgrading" the code is the worst possible solution'
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I think inflation is a big issue and its impact on the game is insiduous. Because of the ease of which tokens were gained initially, future players had to suffer from doing much more work to gain the same result. Hence, houses now require redoing the same quests hundreds of times before you can purchase one.
The end result of this is grinding out quests. So you have xp grinding and token grinding.
If we can remove the inflation problem, perhaps then, a simpler measure of the effects of inflation can be seen with the cost of housing dropping to something more like 1 gold or maybe an equivalent token amount of completing 10 difficult quests, or whatever arbitrary cost we can come up with.
In the end, I believe the idea of 4d is that you can enjoy the huge variety of areas on offer, and it is highly encouraged you do so. Hence the reason why, rightly or wrongly, trainers were introduced. However, if we made houses cheaper, and other things cheaper, and we make all quests once only, suddenly everyone will be trying to do quests in every single zone so they can earn enough tokens. And although this may feel like you are forced to go to different areas, the pain is eased somewhat when you can purchase alot MORE things than you could before, spending less time to achieve it.
A simple analogy to this problem is this - if we suddenly take away the recall spell and all recall items, suddenly recall scrolls become extremely valuable, but because we do have these things, recall scrolls arent as valued.
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Here's an idea I think is better than whatever Virisin is suggesting thus far... it seemed to get some positive feedback...
I was thinking perhaps you have one of two options.
1: Get everything completely wiped : tokens, gold, house, etc... start completely over with your own character.
2: Keep your stuff and get put to some equivalent of what you are in the new system (ill let that conversion stay up to you guys), HOWEVER you get a zone restriction to recall, clan, gladiator arena (and maybe some basic zones so you're not a complete shut-in) until a certain number of people catch up to oldbies are, or as Toch suggested for a certain amount of time (6 months).
This way oldbies can keep all their stuff and be relatively the same in the new system, and new players have opportunities to grow and catch up, not to mention oldbies can also create a new character and enjoy coming up through the new system while keeping all their stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say, 'maybe you have the option of being completely wiped, or getting some equivelant of where you are, and those who want to stay, are forced to stay in clan hall/recall and not able to go out until people catch up'
Devram says, 'now that would be difficult'
Natalya says, 'and silly, lol'
Devram says, 'not impossible but difficult'
Devram says, 'its an interesting idea actually'
You say, 'just trying to suggest any balance I can come up with'
Xeriuth says, 'thats an idea asmo'
Natalya states, 'i just want to log in and have fun, not have to redo everything again. Sick to death of it.'
Devram says, 'zone restrict older characters for 6 months to let noobs catch up'
You nod.
Tocharaeh says, '- I'd be down -'
Devram shrugs helplessly.
Xeriuth says, 'make new chars to enjoy the new system'
Tocharaeh says, '- cause I don't want to lose anything, just seems crazy after all my work. -'
Natalya says, 'ok but zone restrict the oldbies in the same zone so we can PK eachother =p'
Tocharaeh snickers softly.
Xeriuth says, 'I don't really want to lose all my stuff, I have a damn lot'
Devram says, 'it would be a way to keep the characters'
You nod.
Tocharaeh says, '- send all oldbies to the gladiator arena -'
Natalya exclaims, 'yes!'
Tocharaeh says, '- for 6mos -'
Sarias gossips, 'Omg.. someone actually has 20billion gold? I'm going to die.'
Xeriuth says, 'but I think it's the most fair to new players and everyone who has less than me'
You chuckle politely.
Natalya exclaims, 'yes yes yes!'
Natalya says, 'I love that idea'
Natalya says, 'that way we can start alts too if we wanna start from scratch'
Natalya says, 'and then we can still log in and have fun on our mains'
Natalya exclaims, 'yes!'
Xeriuth gossips, ':P'
Devram says, 'thats a really good solution'
Tocharaeh says, '- no losses, and nothing but gains. -'
Natalya exclaims, 'yes yes yes!'
Natalya makes a whole lot of noisy cheering for you!
Tocharaeh jumps in the air and gives you slamming highfive. WOOT!
Tocharaeh jumps in the air and gives a slamming highfive to Natalya. WOOT!
Tocharaeh says, '- genius -'
Natalya jumps in the air and gives a slamming highfive to Tocharaeh. WOOT!
Devram says, '6 months quarantine'
Natalya says, 'gogogo, post post post'
Asmodeus's Prompt:-13350@100100100@100[Align:29]<Warm@Day|Inside>[75,409,006]
Natalya says, '6 months is a bit long I think lol'
Xeriuth gossips, 'cough'
Devram says, 'naww'
Tocharaeh says, '- so are we all agreed that that is the preferable measure to take? -'
Natalya says, 'it doesnt take that long to get some of the gears we have lol'
Tocharaeh says, '- 6mos is perfect -'
Sarias gossips, 'Pfft... that's cause you trained before they hiked up all the dang prices'
Devram says, 'its the LEAST bad solution available'
Natalya says, 'how is 6 months perfect? it doesnt take that long to get these gears and whatnot'
Xeriuth says, 'how do you fix inflation'
Natalya says, 'id say more like 2-3 months =o'
Devram says, 'well tbh you would need to do a more complex economy to avoid inflation'
Natalya agrees with everything that Devram suggests.
Tocharaeh says, '- 6mos doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm a recall junkie :P I'm as old as these dusty floorboards -'
Natalya says, 'well 6 months bothers me. I actually want to play again lol'
Devram says, 'ask once'
Devram says, 'his mud has a fairly ok ish economy'
Natalya says, 'but whatever I'm just content I don't lose everything. Ill happily start an alt and stuff with the new system, as long as I don't lose shit, I'm good'
Tocharaeh says, '- I am happy just playing on Tochie in the arena for 6mos :P -'
Natalya says, 'Ill freakin make a zone specifically for it'
Tocharaeh says, '- and I'll remake my awesome alt of perfect jesterness -'
Natalya says, 'arena sections, heals, and chillout rooms =p'
Kvetch studies the board.
Tocharaeh says, '- asmo, go post it and include our feedback. -'
Tocharaeh nods vigorously.
Natalya says, 'man thats such a totally brilliant idea'
Devram says, 'crafting and durability is needed for a proper game economy'
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Totally down with this! Totttally! I love it!
Lock us away for 3-6 months in an arena-type zone with some cool chillaxy rooms, let other people catch up and get awesome so we oldies dont have a totally unfair advantage, get rid of all our tokens and gold (hey, we can always make alts and earn that shizzle back, which Im totally down for because it'll be a new system that I'm going to want to fiddle with along the way), and shebam! Compromise!
The only thing I'm unsure of is removing the house. On one hand, I'm kind of agreeing with that. On the other... I have a LOT of stuff I'd like to keep, and I cant keep it all on me. Maybe we could put the houses into lock-down, and the only way we get it back is by raising the tokens once again to buy access to the house back? Perhaps at a slightly lower cost maybe? *shrug*
I so seriously hope this idea gets put through. I don't want a pwipe, but that's because I don't want to lose everything I've gotten time and time again after various pwipes and lots of time and effort. This seems like an awesome compromise. Plus, I strangely don't even want to lose my character the way it is. I'm totally down for making a new character, with a new RP, and having fun with the system, and still being able to log my main in and PVPing with other people's mains in a "lock down arena".
* Edit the only thing Im unsure of, which Anubis pointed out, is who gets chosen to be "stored" away in this zone thing, and who doesn't. To me, I think it's more of an oldies thing, the people that actually do have a lot to lose. Not the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th remort people with only one or two quest items, I'm talking the people with various remorts, with perzs, with antiques, with unique items, awards, prizes, a lot of loss...
Maybe some people could be given the choice as well. If ya want to pwipe your toon, go for it, and start back afresh with your main. If not, just lock it away so you dont lose the years you've effectively spent in the game, and whether or not you bother to make an alt is up to you.
Possibly still some fairness issues to be worked out here, not sure...
*bounce bounce bounce*
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Edit about the coins/tokens thing with the proposed "lock down":
You say, 'ok ill try again'
Asmodeus snickers softly.
You ask, 'Say we put our mains in lockdown right?'
Asmodeus nods.
You say, 'Then we start alts, level up, get gears, money, tokens'
Asmodeus says, 'that means they cant give gold or tokens to your alt'
You say, 'the lock down ends'
You say, 'we get our mains back'
Asmodeus nods.
You say, 'and by the time we've spent making alts, whilst everyone else has made new toons'
You say, 'we've got more than double the money and tokens they have'
Asmodeus says, 'yes, but'
Asmodeus says, 'i don't plan on sharing that between each character'
Asmodeus says, 'if I get that all with my new one, it stays with my new one'
Asmodeus says, 'i don't want asmo to go broke just because I want to play on a new character'
Devram says, 'tbh tokens and stuff should be personal and non tradable'
Asmodeus says, 'they're two different characters'
You say, 'true, but other people will share that around'
Asmodeus says, 'then put a fix on that'
You state, 'I know I probably would, to be honest. I've done it before.'
Asmodeus says, 'but don't make the person whos agreeing to go in lockdown to keep all his stuff loose his wealth'
Asmodeus says, 'defeats part of the purpose'
You say, '*copies and pastes* you're right, but then we do need to try find a way to stop the money/token sharing I think'
Asmodeus says, 'im not done playing/exploring with asmo by any means'
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Ok here's my solution:
PWipe you have two options:
1. lose everything and start from scratch. (woohoo this is awesome)
2. lose levels and exp and equipment etc, but keep 1 house 1 set of perzes and all quest flags. All you have to redo is the quests for your one set of equipment.
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*Sides with Asmo's idea*
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By the way, I just want to clarify... everything I've been talking about has been if we go with some in-between stage from complete pwipe to where we are now. If thats the case, i still think my idea is best. As can probably be taken from my posts, it is my preferred choice.
However, i dont mind a full pwipe as long as all money, gold, houses, mounts, equipment, etc etc etc goes with it. Its not my favorite option, but if everyone is back at the beginning, i guess its not THAT bad.
Oh, and i require the following to occur...
Xeriuth is restricted from hoarding anything... thats the only reason he wants a pwipe!
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Deal, I will not hoard everything. :)
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This wouldn't make me leave or come back. I come and go often, as I'm sure I will again. The difference is I chose to come back and play before mention of the pwipe, so it won't matter to me either way. Besides I just wipe for the hell of it anyways.
Fun as always,
-Kiyo-
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As previously mentioned in game, a pwipe is going to see me not bothering to come back at all. And also as previously mentioned in game (by others not by myself), I'm not the only one.
heh.
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As previously mentioned in game, I'm calling your bluff and don't think you could actually leave. You love us all too much. :-*
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We will miss you Natalya. I wish you the best of luck on your future endeavors. May peace be with you, and always with you. Time to cry now.
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:'(
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A question for you guys, how many of you would agree to a pwipe if you were allowed to keep 1 house and a limited number of perzes?
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But let's say my only house has 50 rooms, and is tier 3to support my spaceship and mount which are all part of my house. And do all my servants and pets come with too? All part of my house? Containers? Furniture?
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If you start saying well, we can save this and that and a few other things... Won't everyone start complaining that oh hey, well why can't we keep this if we're keeping this? I just see to much bitching either way.
-Kiyo-
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I wouldn't like to lose anything, as I have put a lot of time and imagination into it, but as the discussion continues to draw out, I'm caring less and less either way.
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I'm all for Asmo's idea as he stated before. There shouldn't be a single loss of anything. After all of that hard work that so many of us have put into the game, especially people like Jason, this would really be more of a punishment than anything. I don't know about you guys, but even for me it is hard to get started again from ground zero on your main character that you have put so much time into.
If you want player power balance, then I am all for separating us uber eqed oldbies from everyone else. Stick us in the Gladiator arena for a certain amount of months. Not only is our hard work saved (including perzes, houses, mounts, servants, awards, tokens, and gold), but we are forced to make alts and play with the new system that way.
I just can't see why a pwipe would be good if it can totally be avoided. This is the best way to do that. I mean, with the skill trees coming in it's designed for you to make multiple alts anyhow so you can test each branch away and take completely different paths. Let's the oldbies convert over to the trees, and send them off to endlessly PK each other in the arena. Simple as that. Don't penalize us.
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You used Jason as an example? :-[
You guys are all just lazy, locking yourselves away for 6 months is such a crazy idea I don't understand how you all actually like it. That sounds more like punishment to me. Other than Kitolani who is about the only one really close to convincing me a pwipe isn't a good idea, you guys are all contradicting yourselves..
"I don't know about you guys, but even for me it is hard to get started again from ground zero on your main character that you have put so much time into"
=/=
"but we are forced to make alts and play with the new system that way."
You all want to start alts and play the new system anyway, but you're all still so attached to your names that you can't think strait about this. The only reason I see wanting to keep a main character if you're going to play as an alt anyway is to suit up your alt with spare stuff from your house, but if you plan on keeping your old characters locked away anyway that seems impossible, and I don't see how if you play with an alt for 6 months you wouldn't be able to get to exactly the point you're at now, in which case all that would end up happening is you'd suddenly have your name changed.. ???
I can see so many reasons why a pwipe would be good: it'd force lazy oldbies to actually do something again, and if not, what's the worst that will happen..? They'll sit at recall more? And don't you even mention PK and arena in the same sentence Toch, PK is not arena and sending oldbies off to an arena zone to spar for 6 months is not PK.. That's 'who has the most hp and hits the hardest'. Plus it's a great way of being able to set the 4d economy right and a great way to revive some competition in the mud. The mud currently is stagnating badly, no one can argue that. If we have 2 people out of recall it's a celebration. Like I said earlier, you all plan on playing alts anyway so you seem to like the idea of competition, you're all just afraid you can't remember how to do all the quests and you want to know for sure that if after 6 months you really suck still, you've got a free ticket to awesomeness. Hell, I know I can't remember how to do 90% of the quests but fuck.. This mud needs to be rejuvenated and a huge code change which seems to be encompassing more and more changes by the day would be a great time to start afresh. With the amount of different gameplay involved, it practically will be a new game being played in the same world with the same people.
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i bet you got your hopes up i wrote something worthwhile...
stop refreshing the forum every 10 seconds viri
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You bastard. I will destroy you for this.
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I'm definitely on the fence on this, so I haven't voted yet. Just listening to the arguments, and actually surprised and delighted that some of the players, who'd actually lose the most in a pwipe, would give that up willingly for the benefit of a mud.
But I have to say this: The idea of some oldbies being allowed to keep all their stuff and then be locked away in the arena för 6 months is about the dumbest thing I ever heard. How on earth would that solve anything at all? It would just keep the imbalance and inflation, so that new players feel that they can never reach what the oldbies have collected during several years. It would create an aristocrasy and a peasantry - which I suspect is exactly why you want it. And on top of this it would make for an extremely boring 6 months for the oldbies, since you'd even be banned from your beloved Recall. Just imagine the withdrawal symptoms.
And who's to decide which players are 'awesome' enough to be selected for this honour?
Me? No way, I hate the entire idea.
Yourselves? By what method? Majority vote? Highest number of remorts? tokens? houses? Who sits at Recall the most? Who actually still PLAYS the game?
It's a terrible idea, and something that I'd definitely wouldn't support, if a pwipe acually happens.
As for the pwipe itself, I am on the fence, but since I actually started out being instinctively and totally against it, I am beginning to recognise the vast advantages that it could bring.
I can understand how it would be agonising to lose all you'd worked for in one stroke.
On the other hand a full pwipe would mean a unique chance to rejuvenate the mud, to restore some balance to it and stop the stagnation. But only a full wipe would achieve that. Not if we allow some players to keep their stuff and continue squatting at Recall, while all the rest have to work their way up.
So, at least in my opinion, it's either all or nothing.
Keep the discussion up, you might actually convince me one way or another.
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Totally agree with Molly.
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I've got a genious solution. Make a new port where all the new content goes, discontinue support on the old port, allow people to play both simultaneously. (Also don't call it a pwipe, that way people would totally be tricked into playing on a new system)
I think people are just scared they'll lose the legacy or footprint they have in the mud, which is fine, because not everyone is eager to replay the mud again. I'm sure more than a few people never seriously picked up the mud during the old code change, and many of them have either been forgotten or left as only a statue in the HoF. If their character is still intact somewhere, even if they have to play on a new base, I think they'll be okay.
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If the second server goes unsupported and unmonitored, would that mean people are there just free to do whatever they want? I could see it being taken advantage of... Hay's idea that is. Oooo, no imms are around, time to abuse bugs and exploits... anyone else see that?
Also I agree with Molly :)
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I've been itching to reply to this for days (dang that internet connection and the fact I couldn't remember my password - since it's in my laptop, I don't need to know it), so now I've got the option.
Is the main issue here pwipe or no-pwipe? It seems with the amount of change that goes in, you would, in fact have to get rid of the characters themselves. A character that already has all these skills/spells/etc probalby would not fit into the new system completely well. The new system being that you really have to chose how you want your character to advance, not just "oh, it's a fighter skill so I'm gonna go get me some of it..." I think wit the amount of change, the character pwipe has to happen....
That leaves the inventory pwipe. Part of our issues on 4D is the fact that gold has no meaning. I mean, you get it but seriously, what do you spend it on? We don't have eq that gets worn through use so you don't spend money to keep them repaired (that's something I would love to see back in. I'm told the basic code had it so it must have been taken out for some reason years ago). Sure, you spend money on potions, but we've had to up the cost so much on those that newbies can barely afford them and they're really the ones that need them. It's the whole inflation thing. And letting "oldbies" (which, btw: needs a definition if you want to continue an arguement about it) keep their stuff won't help the whole inflation thing. We'd still have to have overpriced items just so hopefully they'll spend their money (if they decide to leave recall).
My thought is this - any player (oldbie or newish) should get something for having spent their time with us before a pwipe. My suggestion (so only my opinion, not those of the other IMM's on 4D) is that each player that is currently with us (yes, this would include Darvus even though he is so completely new) should get something because they are losing a character. My thought? Either a basic crashproof house, or a perz mount (though there would have to be a stable somewhere so you can use it). I understand there'd probably be a bit of resistance to this, after all Darvus has been with us for a few months and some of you have spent years (many, many years) collecting your horde of items. But 1) seriously, do you need all that crap you're hording? 2) why is you losing your character any more of a blow than Darvus losing his? Darvus has spent a lot of time actually playing his character - and rping. More than quite a few "oldbies" that I've seen around lately. Shoot, I got names popping up on my screen that I didn't even know as a mort - and that's like 5 years now. So, they (even though they've not played for 5 years and just rejoined us in the last 2 weeks) should get more than someone that's been playing virtually every day for the last 4 (or so) months just because they're an "oldbie"? Like I said, that term really needs to get defined. I wouldn't consider Cati an oldbie, but like I've said it's been like 5 years.
I may also be willing to throw in 1 (yes, one) perz item into the bribe, but as said, it should apply equally to everyone that is currently with the game. The only reason I think people should get something is because they have spent years with us - some of those frustraiting years - and deserve "something", but not everything. If it goes for one, it goes for all.
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Thanks for a well thought out post Kvetch.
I dislike rewarding players for just having played before, one of the best things about starting fresh is that everyone is equal. Giving everyone that is currently playing a crashproof or mount or something would be a very bad idea I think, it'd devalue houses or whatever right from the very start of the new code and then leads to devalued tokens as has been pointed out in this thread before.
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Let me try and tackle this one at a time:
Why would losing our hoards matter?
It's not the hoards we care about. It's the fact that we spent time in earning, and perzing them. There is zero reason why we should lose perzes. On the topic of awarded eq like say Best Dressed of 2007, or some RP rewarded eq, those are awards that should never be lost. They earned those, and unless a DT happens or it's been perzed, there is no reason why they should vanish.
Mounts:
We paid for it. Why are we paying for it again?
Houses:
So, not only did we invest hundreds of hours into a game that gives very little payout in terms of player satisfaction. What do we have to show for the time we've invested in the game? Houses, mounts, and perzes. Why would you want to take what we have rightfully earned and invested?
Houses are something I have completely against taking away from players who earned the tokens, and built the houses. They made them their own, and spent a lot of time customizing them. What right does someone have to say "We're putting in a new combat/skill system, so we're going to take away YOUR investment in us away. You're not getting it back. Go earn and build all over again."
Now if you think I'm all like this because I have a house, you're dead wrong. I don't have one. I have a mount, and like 3 perzes.
We're going to update a shitty system to something that is actually worth playing in. We were fine in old code back in those simpler times. New code came around and things got complicated, and half assed. Don't get me wrong. I am for pwipes when it's for the right thing. However, I do not see the need for a pwipe in this instance.
Molly is against the locking oldbies away. I don't know why but whatever. Who are we to decide who are oldbies. Pretty easy to pick us all out if you ask me. Obviously darvus wouldn't be included. What about completely inactive accounts? Well, they can log back on like I did and find my character gone. Their fault for not playing.
Hoarding in houses: Get rid of everything that isn't perzes or nailed to the floor. Simple as that. If it's furniture, leave it alone.
Pwipes for the wrong reason are lazy and irresponsible. They can be completely avoided. I honestly don't see why we would need it to convert to a new system. I've said this before, and I'll say it again:
make a simple recall command that we all have to type in order to move from old skills to new skills. Send are asses back to creation to pick our stuff or however the menu system is going to work. While we're busy doing that, we can safely store our eq in the houses. Most muds with reclass systems (if not all of them) when you go into the recreate, you lose everything you're holding/wearing anyhow. Go put things away.
next thing: make eq level required. I've always been supportive of requiring people to be certain levels to wear pieces. Guess what, if ya did that you could completely avoid a pwipe, AND force everyone to be on equal footing. Wow, that wasn't hard at all. Need people to go through and put the level requirements on all the quest gear? you've got people who will work. use them.
Pwipe = lazy
level req gear = the perfect balancing system for eq if you want everyone to always be on equal footing eq wise.
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If you don't lose perzes but get to repeat the quests then you get more tokens than you should have been able to. It leads to inflation and devaluing of tokens I have stated this repeatedly throughout the thread Toch and I'm beginning to wonder if you're ignoring me on purpose. A broken economy leads to a crappy game. It's quite simple. I hate how you keep saying people 'earnt' these things. All they did was get enough tokens to buy perzes, it's very easy to re-'earn' them again as long as you redo the quests which you will do anyway.
I understand the sentiment behind keeping things that actually were actually rewarded - Boba's for instance. Not that I ever look at my two of them, my name on a plaque is good enough for me and that's not changing. However I don't think anyone would really be opposed to people having Best Dressed of 2007 reloaded for them. I wouldn't really like it seeing as we're essentially starting a new port but eh, it doesn't fuss me if they really help you sleep at night.
You pay for mounts again because you are regaining the tokens you used to pay for mounts in the first place, again. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is what it essentially all comes down to.
If you think you've invested hundreds of hours into a game for very little satisfaction then I don't understand why you're still playing. I want to take away your houses and perzes and mounts because YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! It is very easy to earn them again, and I don't want a new port to be fucked right from the start. Quite simple, I've said it so many times this thread my arguments are degenerating.
And stop misrepresenting what I'm saying too, it's quite clear in this thread that houses will not be destroyed, the building work will not disappear, I was even open to them staying in the mud, you just have to re-earn the tokens before you get to become owner of them again. Please read the thread Toch. I have like 4 houses and about 30 perzes, the only people close to the amount of wealth I have in this game are Hayato and Xeriuth, and Jaros because he has access to all the same houses. We (bar Jaros because I havn't spoken to him, but I will make him agree with me) are the three that stand to lose the most and we are not complaining. Stop pretending you are complaining for all those people out there that have houses and simply arn't around to talk.
I'm not sure what your next paragraph after houses actually says, doesn't seem to have any relevance to anything cept maybe the last line: this is about the only instance I can think of in which a pwipe is a needed.
It's quite obvious why Molly is against the idea, her post is only a few posts up from yours. Locking oldbies away is a ridiculous idea that solves nothing, again though that has been properly explained earlier in the thread. What about completely inactive accounts? I see no reason why 4d should give two tosses about what completely inactive accounts think.
Sure it would be easy to avoid a pwipe, if we want to continue to play the flawed current system with better gameplay.
Level based equipment is also a horrible idea, I don't want to be penalized and not wear good equipment just because immortals didn't expect someone to complete one of the harder quests at like level 5... That kind of thing really annoys me, and as far as lazyness goes, minlevel is about as lazy as it gets.
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After much reading and wanting to digest a few people for long posts I will be brutally honest.
If we do pwipe I doubt Fiachra would ever be back. My immortal would stay. But I have a different view since I don't own any perzs or a house.
So my question is for Horus who will be coding the skills trees:
Would it be easier to do it from scratch or build on what we have?
I also suggest this which might not go over well:
Why not do an item purge / token / gold purge and reset it that way?
What I am reading from most of this is because of hoarders or people who have tons of items / houses / perzes.
And I have only seen Virisin make a mention of this about changing the leveling system. What do people think about that part of it?
I would like to see what people have to say before I go no my mortal will never return to maybe he might.
Prometheus aka Fiachra.
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To be brutally honest in response I have to wonder what logic you're using in order to come to your conclusions. We're having a complete gameplay overhaul and upgrade and you're saying you wouldn't bring your character back to actually play in the improved game. Yet you're happy to continue 'playing' as an immortal made redundant by the fact that we actually have proper coders now.
If you're suggesting an item/token/gold purge then I take it the only thing you're worried about is losing levels, you'd rather just be transferred into a new system, be level 100 or whatever and continue doing nothing.. Sounds awesome. Let me know how that goes.
Most of this is because the game is being changed significantly, coupled with the fact that the economy is broken and this code was essentially a beta version of 4d anyway, with a feckload of bugs and things that have been exploited over it's course.
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Cuz everyone worried about losing their stuff is playing the game so much amirite?
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The fact that skill trees is coming in is different to the issue of a pwipe. If there are compromises to be made, we can say provide compensation, so if you have a GM, we can always level you up to level 100 in the new system, and you go off and start choosing skills/spells branches of your choice. However, this will make you less appreciative of the new system, and I dare say, you will also create new alts that you will bond with even more because you built those characters up from scratch.
The issue of pwipe is really a chance to fix another fatal flaws common with badly designed muds - inflation and stagnation. Inflation is caused by quite a few issues, and I will try to explain some that are unique to 4d. Firstly, almost anything of worth for an experienced 4der does not cost gold, it costs tokens. Anything that is not useful to a 4der costs gold, but then because of inflation, newbies cant use them because its too bloody expensive for them. So do you see the irony there? Furthermore, because of the remort system, there are skills/spells you do keep from previous classes, or as a GM, you have a huge set of skills/spells, and so the need for potions is diminished quite dramatically.
To illustrate what I want to point out, I can give you a hypothetical situation - if I were to take out all healing spells, and all shopkeepers now sell healing potions, guess what? Suddenly, people will NEED gold to buy those healing potions, it becomes more valuable. If I were to take out all protective spells, shops like those in Asylum will be visited much much more. So what am I alluding to?
In the new skill system, there will be those that really want to specialise into a combat crazy machine, with absolutely no natural protection. They will be the ones who will have to go in search of protection potions etc, or group with another that specialises in protection abilities. The players who are jack-of-all trades will have most spells, but not in its most powerful forms, so they too will want to use certain potions, or services from caster mobs. We will get to a situation where, mobs will have different types of services, with different spell powers (spell ranks), unlike the current situation today, where all healers provide exactly the same thing.
For us to achieve an equitable system, and for this new system to have a greater chance to work, and be appreciated, we need to work off a clean slate. Those that gets to keep anything will end up skewing the balance of the system in ways unforeseen. As my example above illustrates, I am sure quite a few of you didnt appreciate what skill trees meant to the economy, and to the extent of ensuring not just a variety in different characters, but also a variety in what mobs can offer as well. So, quite a few of us will not be able to predict the extent of the impact of keeping perzes/houses/etc. I for one cannot predict it.
So, if we are going to do a pwipe, it has to be a all or nothing approach. We either pwipe EVERYTHING, or we dont do a pwipe at all. Simple as that. Its like Vista - trying to make older customers happy screwed MS up, Windows 7 ftw I say!
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Well maybe not everything, say people can keep one of a kind awards and such, that wouldn't really outbalance anything. Like boba's or rp awards like the favorites from Riley. Or even RP eq can carry over since they are restrings, not in game items. If people make a list for things that don't really give any much benefit and are just for show I can see them keeping those and wiping everything else. But if people complain not about losing levels, gold and tokens. And just equipment. They need to hit a DT and understand that that's all an eq wipe really is. It's say what's happened to me, having someone junk / loot everything in your house and hitting a DT. You lose everything. Even though the house looting has happened once, And I've hit 12 DT's I still have a ton ton of stuff. And that's just from the playing I've done, there's been years I've probably just recall squatted and did nothing but slowly accumulate wealth... Sure it did take me years but I could re-earn everything I have in a month or two... Because totalled that's about the time I spent playing to get my stuff, granted a lot more for levels but that's a given.. we will lose our levels. Sorry for the rambling, just what's on my mind. heh.
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Originally I didn't intend to even post here. Why? Because no matter what the outcome is, I can hide with an immortal character and I can just ignore all the changes and don't be part of it.
But as I already mentioned to someone else, other people can't, the same people who actually play this game, the people who left a mark in 4d with their character.
From what I have read, there's two different things being discussed in this thread:
- a pwipe because of the new skilltree changes
- a pwipe to solve the economy
Anubis was so kind to explain the skilltree system in more detail and I can see where putting each character at level 1 again, would be a benefit there.
So that each and every single player, can have a feel what the skilltree system is like, to see if the 'new' skills and spells they are going to choose at certain levels are to their liking or not. If they made a mistake they can still rectify it within the next level(s), if not, you have to complete the padd you have choosen.
If, after the skilltree-change, people would get practices according to their current level/tier and would just randomly pick a skilltree, they might make a wrong decision which can not be undone.
Now to the part where a pwipe is needed to 'revive' the economy.
There's mainly talk about two different currencies in here: gold and tokens (and what was obtained with those tokens).
If putting every character at level 1 for the new treeskillsystem is the best way to go, I don't see a problem with putting everyone's gold at zero too. So everyone starts from scratch there too.
Now as for the tokenpart:
There are people ingame who have gained their tokens the 'legal' way, who have done quests or have gained their tokens through other ways (rp-contests-imm quests- etc) all by their hard work. Some have stored their tokens so once they have the time, they can start with building a house. Some have just reached enough tokens to get the house they wanted and now if this pwipe goes through, all their efforts was for nothing. So yes, I can see the point where those people no longer care. Those people will be punished for a system that didn't work and/or because of people abusing bugs or hoarding tokens.
And yes, it's easy to say to redo those quests. But has it occured that not everyone has the time or energy to just recreate their character and level it to the state they are now?
Every person plays this game differently, there's those who don't mind the mindless killing of mobs, who have different alts running around, who don't mind to start over and over again. And yes, those people won't mind a pwipe and will redo the quests to regain what they have lost.
But not everyone plays that way, there's people who instead of putting time and energy into leveling, have put time and energy into their character and the socializing gameplay instead.
Those characters have been formed by situations that have happened in the mud, the history of 4d, by deciding which clan to join, by the rp'ing and interaction with other characters that have happened. Those characters gained their wealth to build a house, to get a mount, in a more relaxed state and have seriously thought about what to do with that wealth. Some of them, go with the equipment they find ingame, and don't even bother to go for the quests to give them the best item ingame. They don't mind that it takes months/years to collect what they need, as long as once they have collected it, they can actually spend it on what they had in mind.
And now if a complete pwipe would happen, you'll just delete the complete history of those characters. A character that probably is a friend to the person that is really behind the character. And yes again, you can say: recreate. I can perfectly understand that people I mentioned in the last 'category' won't bother, they have spend months if not years, to be where they are now and now it would just be thrown away. Most of them probably don't even care about the hack&slash or to be the first to solve a hard quest to get the best DR-item.
But to just delete all tokens/houses/mounts that those people worked hard for, with the idea that they'd finally have something in the mud that would fit their character and RP goes too far for me. Those houses have a history behind them, the reason they were build has put a mark on 4d and the characters that made those houses possible.
Regain them tokens and buy the house again, you'll say? See my reason above, they play differently, at another pace.
Conclusion finding a solution that will fit each individual is very unlikely and no matter what the outcome of this thread will be, there will always be people who disagree, especially since different people, play the game differently and focus on another part of the game to accomplish the goal they have set for them in here.
Uh yeah, if you thought I was finished think again ;-)
I know some people have already mentioned: it's all or nothing but what about the following:
Characterwise:
Do not delete the characters, just put them all at level 1 again, that leaves the history of the character intact. And yes, the difference between deleting/recreating them and setting them back at 1 is minimum, it's the thought behind it (I'm sure there's at least a few people in 4d who will understand what I mean with this). People can continue where they left off socialwise, as those who just want the h&s can continue their way too.
One more thing though. If the characters are put back at one, also make sure their original stats are being put the same as a new player has them now. Over the years, some older characters still have badly rolled stats to begin with.
Goldwise:
Put everyone's cash the same as every newly created character.
Tokenwise:
Those with a house: keep their house (max 1) but lose all other tokens. (So that would also mean, lose them tokens that are not stored in the 'tokenbank'.)
Those without a house: let them keep their tokens with a max of 5 gold or whatever the price of a basic house will be, if it gets lowered.
Equipment & perzeswise:
Let the player keep whatever the player is wearing/wielding/holding. Delete all the other stuff including the inventory. (If that is easy to do.)
This way a person that only logs on a couple of times in a trimester and has no clue about the pwipe, can still continue to explore with the eq they have. They do not need to spend their time at regathering stuff that would make them leave at once because they already have limited time to spend on the mud in the first place.
Even if this means that certain people keep items they have not gained themselves. How long would it take for them to get the item again some other way?
Content of Houses:
Keep the furniture/chests/whatever that was made with the house but delete all other content.
Anyway, just another option ontop of all the others. I know it's an all or nothing pwipe. But maybe the above solution, will let people, who care more about their character and its history, make them more willing to stick around and try out the changes rather than seeing them completely leave with a complete pwipe.
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I like a lot of your suggestions Diandra, there are a few things I see that should be changed somehow. If someone has all their equipment, they are wielding, wearing, holding, etc, do they have all the flags to appropriately wearing them, or are we not doing away with the flags? And if we are not doing away with the flags and we have gotten rid of all of everyones tokens then how will they buy back the extra houses, perzes, etc they have with no quests left to earn tokens. Or if flags are removed wouldn't most of the equipment poof anyways? And then what was the point in keeping it? You'll have to redo those quests all over again anyhows.
Again what constitutes a house? One crashproof room and only 3 rooms? What if that person builds a 50 rooms mansion, that they put all that time into and slaved away, etc, I'm sure you get the picture. Do they keep all the rooms, or just a select 3? Also do you keep the current level the house is so all of the servants, and pets, and furntiture, and scripts, and mounts one has also spent a lot of time on can stay? Afterall, all are part of the house and add to the house.. the house wouldn't be the same without them. ..... To fix that do we just give them 3 rooms and cp room and they have to buy back everything else? Slowly tack on each room by room, each script by script, servant by servant, etc?
If people don't mind and everyone can keep their houses how they are minus the contents of the CP room, except for bought furniture.. even though some will have a much more stately house than others. Then we can just do that.
Now we could keep your idea just everyone is placed in a safezone they can stay at forever until they get bored or suceded and walk into the DT at the end, and re-incarnate persay and start a new life. Just a thought.
In all it's hard to meet everyones needs. There does need to be compromises. But how can you actually divide anything?
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Like Anubis, I think it should be all or nothing, but I certainly see the merits of what Diandra suggests, and would even be quite happy with that situation myself as long as there were one addition to what she suggests: do not delete quest flags if you are leaving people with houses. It will lead to people being able to get more tokens than they otherwise should. If people keep a set of equipment and a house, they need to keep all their quest flags.
We would still have to work out if perzes would be kept, and how many rooms and scripts in houses could be kept.
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Hey
Ok , first i didn't agree with this whole pwipe thing , but after reading and reading pro's and against ideas i think i'v changed my mind into yes , do it . What the hell , i have i don't know , 4-5 chests full with sets of gear.. for what? i can retake it ( if i remember how ) but yeah , i'd do some amazing quests again , if i have the time , and id try to have it . Anyway the thing that bothers me is one single one
perzes . Meaning lets say i have 5 perzes , then before the pwipe , someone should write em down , and whenever i wanna perz something , get it for free , just because i allready had some
so if i have 5 perzes before pwipe , i sould get 5 perzes back , whenever i want on whatever i want
fair neh ?
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Woohoo, support is building.
I don't mind perzes still being in the game, as long as players have to get the item and the tokens back before getting the perz back.
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virisin, all you just said was that you should just have someone save the titles of your perzes and reuse them when you want an item perzed
I say be creative and get new stuff :p
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Forgive my name is hard remembering.
I can just randomly pick a mark in more relaxed state they are we just do with the best way to see if a hard work. Some have the new life. Just a skilltree, they have collected it, they can have just recreate their tokens then what was obtained with that person that not years, to give them 3 rooms? What if flags to complete the end, and add to choose at level the house.. the mindless killing of your suggestions Diandra, there too. Now to 'revive' the people no matter what they have spend months if not everyone is a system that should be undone. Now as I mentioned in a thought. In all the best DR-item. I can just randomly pick a few things being discussed in here: gold at zero too. Now as for a 50 rooms mansion, that they have gained their houses how will redo those people no longer care. Those characters have happened in a thought. In all of your idea just reached enough tokens to do with the house than others. Then we have choosen. If, after the house.. the first to explain the flags? And now if this game differently, there's people would get the house and over again. And if flags to explain the part of the 'legal' way, who don't be undone. Now to be the rooms, or suceded and have a much more stately house and energy to the rp'ing and start with an immortal character that have happened in mind. And yes, I can just delete the extra houses, perzes, etc they can start a mount, in more detail and slaved away, etc, I'm sure you get the skilltree system that probably don't even bother to be undone. Now as long as long as for bought furniture.. even care about the skilltree changes - a mark in this thread: - a skilltree, they have a mistake they have collected it, they can hide with no longer care. Those people who don't mind a 50 rooms and now and now if flags and walk into their tokens then what I see the state they can see that have different alts running around, who don't even though some will be compromises.
But as for bought furniture.. even though some will have different currencies in more stately house than others. Then we could keep the point in a feel what the 'new' skills and have collected it, they can say: recreate. I like a few things I can still rectify it takes months/years to their tokens the DT at level 1 again, would just be punished for the people would happen, you'll just everyone starts from scratch there are now? Every person builds a mount, in keeping it? You'll have lost. But not doing away with those tokens).
if putting time or not. If they might make a skilltree, they are to redo those people would just be the skilltree changes - a much more detail and every single player, can still rectify it occured that each and tokens to just reached enough tokens (and what they can actually play this game, the contents of putting everyone's gold and level it occured that is a house, to the history of the CP room, except for bought furniture.. even bother to start with the picture.
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Not gonna lie didn't make it through that whole post Vivek..
And yeah Asmo, I realize that. :P Some people add descriptions and things to perzes too though, and maybe the building part of it took them the most work, not the token gathering. :-\
Ok fine it was pointless, I just wanted to post in celebration to a successful convert and figured it should have more substance. :P
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if you really take longer to come up with the perz names and descs than you do to earn the tokens for them, you should slap yourself
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Slap myself because I'm too slow at coming up with names or too fast at earning tokens?
EITHER WAY ASMODEUS STOP DERAILING THE THREAD PLEASE. :-*
Back on subject: I think we need to come up with a definite answer to what would be kept if we were to have a pwipe: specifically with regards to houses and the size of the crashproof (maxlimit that is) as well as the size of the house itself.
One thing that bothers me is that clans have made changes that cost tokens, but I'd be much, much more cautious of altering clans at all than I would be player houses - even though leaving clans with additions has the same affect on the economy as leaving houses with additions. Maybe it's because clans do not have a set of guidelines around their initial building like houses do, so a house must have a crashproof + something like 3 rooms + the basic furniture, whereas when clans were first made they were all different sizes and came with different scripts and extras.. Some clanhalls had hangars and dungeons right from the get-go, some had to pay for them. In the end I guess I dislike that inconsistency and think that a pwipe would actually even that out in regards to meaning all clans essentially cost the same amount just as houses do currently, and then a set of guidelines will be made as far as future clan upgrades go (see clan thread) which would solve that problem.
I just sorta created a problem in my head and figured it out by the time I wrote that all down. Nifty.
Anyway, I still would rather players were not allowed anything back but if we do end up pwiping and if we do end up letting players keep quest flags + 1 house I think that the size of the crashproof room (the maxlimit) should be reset to 500, whereas scripts and rooms could be kept as they are because I don't really think the extra rooms or scripts on player houses really affect anyone but the player themselves at all, whereas the different storage space does affect other players - relatively speaking.
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When I think about houses though, I think I do do exactly what Diandra keeps pointing out whenever she discusses the subject. I am always focused on the balance of the game, and not so much the social/role playing side of the game. A house and mount and things can be extensions of the players character - I'm not much of a role player but I actually do pride myself on having my own personal Zoo in one of my houses. I can see why some people would be just as annoyed at losing all but 3 rooms of their houses as they would be at losing the whole thing. On the flipside, however, I still cannot see a really 'fair' way of letting people keep 1 house and however many rooms.. And in a way, I think it would be worse to just cut the houses in half than it would be to remove them all together. Removing them all together can mean starting fresh with a new character in a new port, whereas chopping half the rooms out can be just crippling a character history. Virisin's Zoo is quite widely known, and Virisin wouldn't quite be the same without it.
This has been my most poorly thought out, rambly post of the entire thread, I seem to be in one of those moods at the moment. I'm not really sure if this post is even for or against a full pwipe.. But I think it's possibly for a pwipe because I think fairness should trump anything else. I could handle Virisin dying and being reborn, along with everyone else.. It'd be hard for him to just be crippled.
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How about this.. if we keep flags..
Reset people's gold to 1000 or something to start out with that would be reasonable.
Everyone's character reset to level 1.
Everyone's remorts set to 0.
Stats allowed to be repicked, just the same as recreating (permitting we like the way stats affect us - that'll be changed and have to repick stats anyways)
Clan's in their size should stay. Clan's should keep their crashproof rooms. If they have a stable or space station, they'll need to upgrade to get those back.
Houses can stay how they, minus mount, space station. If someone happens to have servants in their house, just keep them. The house is merely RP factor for the player, has a story. It's not like one can back convert from a 50 room house into tokens? So if this means people will spend their tokens on a house or on their house to make it nicer, what's it do? Adds more rooms to the mud? Add more atmosphere? There is no real fair way to do houses and keep that sense people has worked for. So without wiping everything, keep this. Still have max capacity set to 500. These are just
Perzes. Have to redo the quest for the original item, and buy the perz back with a silver plus the item.
This solution is nearly identical to the last pwipe, but we keep the flags. And if tokens were 'cheated' for there's still some things, like mounts, and such that are lost and need to be re-earned, granted it'd be way tougher for people who have already done many of all the quests and don't really have tokens left. So if this were the case, I'd self delete from the beginning, recreate, just to get my flags back.. or make a new character and dont bother focusing on Xer, start a new.. Perhaps get the house back and thats it..
Now if we keep the flags, propose, keep everything the same as I have it up there. But Perzes will be 7silver again, or whatever new cost is decided, and you still need the new item. All you gain is what you invested in your clans or your houses.
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The more I hear all these "compromises" the more I am inclined to just vote a complete and utter pwipe.
Like was said before, not everyone's ever going to be happy. At least a full pwipe makes it fair while with any and EVERY other compromise, theres always a group of people getting screwed in some way. If you want the same perzes, write them down. If you want the same house, copy the room descs. If you the same mount/ship/whatever else, just write it down. Then when you earn what you need to make it again, you wont have to take a month to come up with this crap (viri!). Me, I actually think itd be cool to revamp (no pun intended) my character's look... hard to do that now without paying. Hell, I may even retire Asmo and make a new character, who knows.
Yes, we've worked hard to get where we are, and maybe some of us don't have the time to relevel and get back (who knows, I might not even get anywhere close either... im still in school to get a higher degree)... but you should already know the quests, and if you dont remember, itll come back. I just spent time doing 2 old quests i thought i didnt remember, and it all came back like 1/4 of the way through. Leveling is a grind, but at least itll be completely different with this new system in place.
Point being, not everyones going to be happy with anything, at least full pwipe makes it fair. dunno about clan houses, either let them roll over as is (at this point, not in a month), or make them all equal when a full pwipe happens.
PS - I voted yes
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Agree with you 100%, Asmo.
I also quite like Xeri's solution, but just reading that post and then Asmo's post in consecutive order I'm going.. Asmo's solution is so blatantly better than Xeri's solution.
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Lets be brutally honest here, the people who argue for compromises have not provided any valid reasons for these compromises that will benefit the mud. Its all basically got to do with - "Oh I have spent years and years collecting all this gear and I dont want to lose them". Provide me with some valid benefits/reasons that far outweigh the negatives so we can consider it more carefully.
Any compromise will just mean an opportunity cost has been lost - if you already have some perzes and houses, that means the mud has lost a chance to charge you those tokens, so now, when you do gain tokens, you wont have to spend it on these houses and instead, you spend it on something else. Its simple economics, eventually this will lead to hyperinflation.
I want things to cost cheaper, I want coins to become more useful, I want to be able to convert TPs into tokens, etc. This is not possible with any compromises. There have been compromises in the past, and this lead to half-assed measures that didnt fix anything.
Seriously, get over your sentimental clap trap. If I can spend weeks and weeks on end coding this shit together, you can spend the same amount of time getting your gear back. I dare say, I will probably spend more time coding this than the time you spend questing all your gear back. If everyone gets over their emotional attachment to their materialistic things, you will know that this sacrifice will benefit 4d in the long term. If there was a better solution to this, do you not think I would offer it instead?
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Well there you go Asmo, you just go 1up'ed for best post on this page so far. :P
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Horus says, 'every compromise people offer is like saying, lets print more money'
Horus says, 'there shouldnt be a problem, more money = we will never run out'
Horus says, 'but it is like it'
Horus says, 'stoneskin costing 500k? seriously'
Horus says, 'thats zimbabwe'
Once says, 'So are you comparing Mordecai to Mugabe'
Horus grins.
Horus says, 'no, I am comparing the collective oldbies to mugabe'
Do you guys REALLY want to be like mugabe? :P
:-*
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Well said Horus. My last post was just somewhat to try an appease people. I'd rather just start anew. Wonderful.
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Let me just make one thing clear.
Whether there is a total pwipe or not, nothing will be deleted from the game - just from the pfiles.
The houses will still be there, they just won't be crashproof, until you pay for them again. Same with the perzes. No need to copy anything. Why would we delete them? You'd just have to re-earn them to get them back.
A lot of work and thought has gone into those things, it would be downright stupid to let that go down the drain.
Another thing to clear up: What you pay for with the houses is mostly the crashproof element. Then you have to pay extra tokens for a stable for your mount, or a garage for a vehicle. Most of the rest is just cosmetics, extra rooms, servants, furniture, scripts etc..
And like Horus said, if inflation can be conqured, the prices would go down. Originally houses costs one gold. The current price is because people were able to collect insane amounts of tokens by abusing stuff like glitches in quests, lumberjacking, farming, the duplicate bug etc. And let's not forget the rampant cheating that went on for quite a while, when certain clans obviously shared all the quest info that they could dig up with their mates.
If we do the equip and flag wipe, we'll get rid of a lot of the not-deserved tokens as well. Most of the bugs have been fixed now, so it won't be as easy to find things to abuse next time. And if some of the players, who were dragged round the quests by a buddy will have a bit of a problem redoing the quests without that help... well, my heart bleeds... not.
Maybe the price for a house won't drop to 1 gold, since there are so many more token quests to earn nowadays. But 2 gold for the smallest type house might be a realistic goal.
I have to agree with Asmodeus and Horus. Any attempt of compromises will still screw some players up, there is no way a compromise can be fair to all.
We did a half-assed compromise with the last code-change. In restrospect that probably was a mistake. Because that was when the inflation really began, and a lot of players got screwed in spite of the attempt.
And the oldbies have one vast advantage, that will enable them to still be on top even after a pwipe, with a limited amount of work compared to a new player: Their knowledge of the game and the quests.
That is - provided they actually did the quests on their own. If they didn't... well again my heart bleeds... not.
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Every 'No' Vote is a Vote for Mugabe!
Molly understands this.
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Molly, although all perz and such info is saved, we dont HAVE to use that stuff next time around do we? we can completely redo our equip and houses and such, correct?
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That should be pretty obvious. Yes you can.
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I first want to be made very clear. I support the pwipe if the mud can truly benefit from it.
I hear lots of talk about inflation, but I'm not entirely clear on how pwiping everyone including their quest flags can prevent this. Here is what I'm talking about.
The Dodo Bird has done every known major quest possible, and has recorded all information regarding these quests, and thus can run through them all again very quickly. He has the gear now, and has perzed everything. He is also privy to token farming spots where he can easily earn whatever he needs.
Dodo Bird has now been pwiped.
Dodo Bird still has all information and all he needs to do is level, and re-earn everything with ease. He is also aware of how to avoid major hazards to get wherever he needs to go. He knows all of the tricks, and top notch areas for prime leveling along with appropriate eq for every 10-20 lvl increase increments.
How does this stop inflation? Personally I don't think it does. All it means is that you've slowed Dodo Bird down slightly, but once he is where he wants to be, he'll take off again, and BAM, he has everything at his fingertips, meanwhile, the lesser experienced/quest oriented players will still be where they were before they pwiped.
To be honest if you keep the perzes as they are, and keep the quest flags to prevent the players from re-doing the quests and getting equal reward of what they had already earned in the past...
Keep the flags, and you prevent the players from taking advantage of everything that they have already done. Unless you're going to change quests themselves individually to make sure us experienced players don't earn so much so fast, wiping our perzes and making us re-earn everything isn't really going to change much at all. In fact, because a lot of us HAVE written everything down, HAVE mapped everything, and so on...we're just going to earn things THAT much faster than before because we know the who, what, where of the major quests and once we're of proper "strength" to tackle them...we'll beat the zone faster than the others. The only wrench in our gears would be the tedious leveling, that's all.
If you just make us re-earn them..it still doesn't change the fact that hey, now we have multiples of a one timer.
I'm not sure how this will actually fix inflation. Just keep our gear, keep the flags where they are. Set our gold to 0. Leave our tokens be, or cut them down by half. Leave rp rewards alone, and keep people who are married, married along with keeping their rings.
If you keep everything people have already paid for then all that is changed is that we're in a new system without being completely messed over. No new additional tokens can be earned because we've already earned them. Our FLAGS dictate what we can access now, and so long as you keep those flags, we'll be prevented from taking advantage of everything we already have previous knowledge of.
I hope this made sense.
Like I said, I'm for a pwipe, but for the right reasons. Wiping everything won't prevent inflation because we already have mastery over quest knowledge..so we can recall it at any point in time and earn things that much faster.
Now if you want us to not be able to USE the perzes until a certain level, hey, put a min level requirement on them. that will make things better. We can't take advantage of what gear we do have, and everything is hunky dory. I'm down with not being able to use what I've already paid for until a certain level. Doesn't hurt me none. What hurts me is that you're taking OUR investments, and wiping the slate clean. This isn't about "printing more money", this is about not screwing your shareholders.
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Inflation is not related to quest knowledge. Gold inflation is mostly because of places like Prehistoric Forest and Dark Planet which used to have mobs dropping millions of coins each. This has been fixed. There have also been more gold sinks added to the game. Token inflation is mostly because of things like farming and lumber-jacking as well as old duplicate bugs. This has been fixed.
With a PWipe we could also fix the other broken aspects of the economy, it is very hard to fix the economy once it is already broken by simply adding more gold sinks and things in order to remove players gold. The trainer system, for instance, is an annoying equation that has a whole bundle of multipliers depending on level, tier, remorts, etc.. It is a rather nice gold sink, but it's actually not all that easy to gain gold anymore, and it's possibly too expensive now. Same with recover costs. This hasn't actually affected the people it was intended at overly, Xeriuth still has 30 billion coins. He probably hasn't even remorted once since the trainer system, and so hasn't been affected by it at all. I doubt he dies all that often either, rendering high recovery costs fairly useless too.
Yes, a gold wipe would help solve this, and yes we do have solutions to prevent future inflation including balancing the cost of consumables with the money supply. This is why we want to PWipe, to fix the economy.
Now, even though you mixed up your whole post and I think you might be somehow referring to equipment inflation (correct me if I'm wrong), I think that was a simple mistake on your part and I will now address the issues you have, which are unrelated to the economy.
Dodo Bird still has all information and all he needs to do is level, and re-earn everything with ease. He is also aware of how to avoid major hazards to get wherever he needs to go. He knows all of the tricks, and top notch areas for prime leveling along with appropriate eq for every 10-20 lvl increase increments.
Yes indeed, Dodo Bird is a good player and will do very well after a PWipe. I am very happy to see him or her prosper. Dodo Bird reminds me of Hayato, of Xeriuth, of myself. I am fairly sure Dodo Bird welcomes these changes because Dodo Bird sounds like someone that would love to play in a properly balanced game.
we're just going to earn things THAT much faster than before because we know the who, what, where of the major quests and once we're of proper "strength" to tackle them...we'll beat the zone faster than the others. The only wrench in our gears would be the tedious leveling, that's all.
Exactly, it's really not that hard at all. Good old Dodo Bird has a huge advantage over others, and benefits greatly for his hard work in the past. In fact, the only people that are hurt by a loss of all equipment are those that don't remember how to get the equipment, or never really knew in the first place and just followed their friends around in the quests and then perzed the item - cementing their ability to never have to think about that quest again. You refer to 'tedious leveling', I also dislike leveling to a certain extent but it will always have a place in 4d and I am content with that. You yourself were actually content with that earlier in this thread, when you mentioned wanting to lock up 'Tocharaeh' and play as an alternative character anyway. You didn't mind being set back to level 1, it was the equipment that bothered you - so I'll continue to focus on equipment and not levels.
As Horus has already pointed out, there is no good reason to keep anything other than sentimental value and attachment to your character as it is now. Any kind of half-assed attempt at a PWipe will end badly, there will always be people who draw the short straw.. It is extremely hard to find some FAIR solution that will satisfy everyone. In your own solution I can already find fault: allowing everyone to keep flags and then setting gold by 0 and cutting tokens in half does not affect the people it is aimed at. Xeriuth and Hayato still have 10+ gold tokens left over, and already have houses and things and so nothing to spend it on. However, poor old Dodo Bird junior has finally saved up 4 gold tokens and is so close to buying a house, only to be cut back to 2 gold tokens and still have all his flags so his potential gold token limit was just cut by 2 gold tokens, meaning it's going to be ever harder for him to afford a house. His only solution is to recreate, however forcing Dodo Bird junior to recreate because you want to keep some of your stuff is not fair.
Honestly, the mud truly CAN benefit from a complete PWipe, and any halfassed measure will simply lead to more problems in the future. A revitalization is needed.
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I support the houses costs one timer. I'm not forget the tedious leveling, that's all.
In fact, because of everything that has recorded all that will make sure how this made sense. Like I first want to re-earn everything at overly, Xeriuth still doesn't change quests and thus can be honest if you have multiples of the crashproof element. Then you keep the slate clean. This has been more money", this made sense. Like I support the quest flags where they are, and keep everything people have already earned because we do have, and earn things that often either, rendering high recovery costs fairly useless too. The houses is also been pwiped. Dodo Bird has been fixed. With a one gold.
The houses will still be the quests and it's actually fix inflation. Just keep people it would be downright stupid to the rest is what I've already paid for the drain. Another thing to get wherever he is that hey, now been fixed. There have to have mastery over quest flags where they have multiples of everything with ease. He is also fix inflation. Just keep our gold to get them all that we're of things that went on.
-Vivek
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You strike a good point there, Vivek. I will ponder further.
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If you ask me, most of you are being about as logical and well reasoned as Vivek here.
Read up on Opportunity Cost and Macroeconomic theories.
HINT: Knowing which quests to solve has nothing whatsoever to do with inflation. That's like claiming that since you know carpentry and can earn a wage the USD will just get inflated again.
A pwipe coupled with proper rebalancing can lead to a well structured economy with reasonable inputs and reasonable sinks for each of the currencies to ensure things are both fun and that a vibrant economy can be established.
If you're still feeling apprehensive about the pwipe after reading this, ask yourself:
Are you actually playing rather than socializing now anyway?
Do you think having a reason to actively play would make the game more enjoyable and less of a chatroom?
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the scimitar had nothing to do with my vote.
fuck the scimitar i still vote no a big fat NO
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This obviously means you have other cheat-items lying around, eh? :P
Could you please give me more substance to work with Jason? I know you have some reasons for not wanting a PWipe after you said this:
Jason says, 'hell I would have give the scimitar and all my tokens to charity if that meant the pwipe would go downhill'
Maybe you'll say something that hasn't been said before and actually convince people, as it is though, that kind of argument really works against you to be honest. Stubborn conservatism is not very persuasive.
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Ok after talking to Jason online, I realize he hasn't even read the thread and doesn't even realize he's voting the wrong way. He's actually a 'depends' voter not a 'no', he wants to lose his levels and gold and tokens, he just wants to keep his houses and equipment and perzes and quest flags. I wish I could get him to read the thread though, I think he might even move to a full yes vote if he did.
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I left this thread alone for a few days because I came to realize I was getting far too wrapped up in a game.
Here's a revised "two cents" from my part.
I don't really care anymore about the pwipe. I never cared about losing money or tokens at all, that wasn't even a factor for me, because I dont have any use for them at all, and making coin is relatively easy if you put the time in.
My reasons were nostalgic, yes. I've been here a long time, despite my breaks, and there have been times, numerous pwipes, recreations, returning arrivals, etc, where I - and others - have had to pay for the same things we already paid for over and over and over again.
I still maintain a total pwipe does seem like a bit of a punishment, and I agree with some of Toch's postings. Let's face it, I clearly have some kind of 'fondness' for 4D. Despite the crap, and despite the fact some people on here remember how much of an idiotic child I used to be, I still like to come back and see whats what and join in. I would love to be more of a part of the mud, the gaming environment, if I had the time.
By the same token though, and this goes a bit off track but it's still linked, toch says something along the lines of "So, you're going to pwipe and delete everything we've done repeatedly, after all the time and effort we've sunk into a game that is barely entertaining and not one for customer service?".
I'm sorry. I love some of you IMMs and all, but I have to agree. You guys pick and choose what cases you solve and what you don't. Rules are bent per person, things are let slide that you probably know shouldn't slide. When something isn't a players fault, or when something is deleted or bugged or changed, many times are we told to simply go fix it ourselves, or go get the item again. So, because you guys want to do something, whether it's a pwipe, or a change to the items, every single player has to PAY for that change? Imagine for a moment if we had 50, 100, 200+ players, and you keep pwiping, or changing items, or quests, or scripts, or things get bugged, or situations get fucked with, and every single time every player is told we have to go through it all again. HOW on earth would you think you'd keep that playerbase? Are you high? Have you not wondered why years ago we had a decent playerbase, but now we have barely anyone? Of course, just pin EVERYTHING down to needing a pwipe, and forget about the players. That solves everything.
This is not how games work. I play another online game, called Rappelz. I have a 143 Battle Summoner on there with some of the best gears in the game (it's not really a quest game, its more pvp orientated). It's free to play. But if anything gets scammed, deleted, bugged, we are not simply expected to go get it again ourselves, or go use our money, or our time, to replace everything we've spent years getting. No. It is replaced. Fixed. (Admittabely through a very tedious process of emails and discussions with GMs, but it IS usually sorted).
If we are harassed in that game, it is dealt with, professionally, with warnings, and then bannings ranging from 3 days to 30 days to permanent. It's dealt with mutings. If that game were to turn around and delete everyones stuff just because it wanted to upgrade, when our gears and such could be easily restored, well... I don't even know what to say? It wouldn't happen, because it's retarded, and they'd lose HUNDREDS of people.
I know 4D is obviously on a much smaller scale, nonetheless the principle still does apply. This game is a service, of sorts, and I know many people find themselves wondering why they stick around at all. For me, it's only because of the nostalgia, and because I just don't care. It's just a game.
However, that argument can be easily used against me. "It's just a game, so why should I care if there's a pwipe". Firstly, I do think it's a bit of a lazy way to do things when there are clearly other alternatives and compromises, even Xeriuth came up with some decent ideas (I thought). Convince yourself that a total pwipe is the ONLY way to fix EVERYTHING thats wrong with the mud. That must be the way to do it.
I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong. If you want to keep players, get some customer service going. Improvements are great, but if you're not going to support the efforts of the players that stick around to support you, there is no point.
I will most likely visit after said pwipe, but I maintain I won't be playing, for reasons previously mentioned (IE, currently I have the ability to log in and randomly level and have fun. If that's gone, well... I'm not going to be another level 50 tier 1 newbie with a star next to my name just chilling at recall).
PS: I *hate* the idea of level-based equipment. That's always been an instant turn-off for me in any game I've tried playing. There is definitely no way in hell I'd bother playing again if THAT happened.
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I don't really care anymore about the pwipe.
:D
My reasons were nostalgic, yes. I've been here a long time, despite my breaks, and there have been times, numerous pwipes, recreations, returning arrivals, etc, where I - and others - have had to pay for the same things we already paid for over and over and over again.
2 PWipes isn't exactly numerous, and recreations or returning arrivals (arn't they the same thing?) are the players own fault. Either way, you make it sound like you've done it plenty of times already, yet you wouldn't do it one more time. Is there some arbitrary line in 4d that's kept secret but everyone knows about? The 'If I Have To Pay For Everything X Amount Of Times, That's It'? With the amount of change in the new system, including quite a large equipment change.. You'd be at a loss not to lose everything. Honestly.
So, because you guys want to do something, whether it's a pwipe, or a change to the items, every single player has to PAY for that change? Imagine for a moment if we had 50, 100, 200+ players, and you keep pwiping, or changing items, or quests, or scripts, or things get bugged, or situations get fucked with, and every single time every player is told we have to go through it all again. HOW on earth would you think you'd keep that playerbase? Are you high? Have you not wondered why years ago we had a decent playerbase, but now we have barely anyone? Of course, just pin EVERYTHING down to needing a pwipe, and forget about the players. That solves everything.
That is a very negative way of thinking about things, what we want to do is completely upgrade everything. And when I say everything I literally mean everything, there will be very few things unchanged after this, the only thing we're forcing the players to do is BENEFIT from the changes, and I'm afraid a PWipe is a good way of doing that.
Funnily enough, wondering that is what lead to all of this. :P And to be honest, these last few days we've actually had a playerbase getting close to where it once was. 4d never had a huge playerbase, and muds in general have been losing players. The 4d playerbase was actually getting smaller though, before we starting talking about all of this. You'd be surprised how many players are extremely excited about the prospects. We don't actually have all that many oldbies left around to disappoint.
I know 4D is obviously on a much smaller scale, nonetheless the principle still does apply. This game is a service, of sorts, and I know many people find themselves wondering why they stick around at all. For me, it's only because of the nostalgia, and because I just don't care. It's just a game.
I don't believe the principle applies at all. There is a huge difference between large muds and small muds, a PWipe when everything is obviously working well and they have >200 players would be a retarded thing to do.. No one is denying you that, however a PWipe when everything is obviously not working well and we have a playerbase of less <20 is a completely different thing.
I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong.
Understood, however I think you think this more because you're frightened you won't remember where to get all your equipment again. It's essentially a scared and/or lazy feeling (not going to count nostalgic), most of the junk in your houses could easily be destroyed without you minding, you probably know your house needs to be cleared out currently anyway. What you're worried about is the set of equipment you're wearing. It honestly won't take you long to get it back, and it's extremely hard to be fair to everyone if we start wiping some bits of players and leaving other bits, as I mentioned in my reply to Tocharaeh.
I will most likely visit after said pwipe,
I believe 4d is an extremely personal mud, and to be honest I don't think we'd lose anyone after a PWipe. Everyone loves 4d too much to actually leave, they'd still come round and sit at recall. The funny thing is, this is essentially what everyone does currently.
PS: I *hate* the idea of level-based equipment. That's always been an instant turn-off for me in any game I've tried playing. There is definitely no way in hell I'd bother playing again if THAT happened.
Level-based equipment won't happen.
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No offense to Viri or anything, but when are we going to see MORE responses from the IMMs on this thread than a single player who has been pushing about pwipes for as long as I've been pushing for skill trees?
So far we're seeing only a few people actually post here, and they don't reflect the yes or no votes. This bothers me because I wonder if we're getting newbies who actually don't understand what kind of impact this could really have on the pbase.
While pwipes appear to be a good idea, you really need to take into consideration how much nostalgia ALWAYS plays in a pbase even if Virisin wont admit it. SOMETHING pulls him here.
Be it people, memories, and/or time investments these are all valid claims when something as drastic and highly unfair as complete pwipes.
You say "eq can be bought back with tokens, so nothing is really lost.", well I say to you, why are you wiping my hard earned claim to things I've already invested in because YOU don't have any care as to whether or not you lose something.
Newbies also need to understand that just because they may WANT us all to be on the same playing field, a pwipe isn't going to do that. There will never be a true balance in the game so long as those of us who have been here for longer than a couple months or even 12 years. Hate to break it to you guys but 98% of the pbase is made up of those 9+ years spent players. because of that, you'll never be on the same playing field as us until you've invested more time into the game, learned the areas, learned the eq combos, and mastered the toughest quests in the game.
A lot of us have done that. We have made an investment. 4D provides us with a service, and it would never survive for long if it were dead. Molly voiced this not but a while ago talking about her fears of 4D being shut down if the pbase didn't pick up. So what did I do? Busted my ass to get things thriving again. If activity is accurately PERCEIVED, then there will be a magnet effect. However, if they don't have any nostalgic ties to this game any longer, it is like a dead zone. No connection. 4D should count itself lucky that we still have a very loyal (albeit small) pbase, but I would like to think that every one of you are quality players that most muds would envy.
If you cut those ties, we're going to lose people and loser them quick. Prom has said it, and Natalya has said it. Just because a couple people have voiced it doesn't mean that some who have voted yes, or depends aren't thinking it. If you remove our ownership of things we rightfully own, you're going to find the pbase drop like a lead plate. How do I know this?
I have IMPed, and IMMed for other muds (mostly PK ones) and I've seen the effects of a pwipe, even if some supported it. those some gradually vanished. Why? Because they became bored of trying to reinvest their already spent time into a character they've built up over the years. Pwipes are a great thing when they're done responsibly. What I am seeing right now is the exact opposite.
We need more IMM input, and we need the IMMs to REALLY take time to consider each players point. Things need to be weighed. This is their responsibility as the now lively pbase could return to not but 3 weeks ago, and being in the red zone isn't very fun at all.
My solutions stand as they are, and they have support:
Keep quest flags.
Zap tokens and gold in bank/on hand
Keep perzes, houses, mounts, and furniture as they are. Do not remove ownership.
Keep any and all RP awards as they are.
If you suspicious of "cheater eq", then stat it, and purge it if needed.
If people are married, keep them that way and maintain their rings.
Now if you zap the tokens, and keep the flags as they are on each pfile, what do you think will happen? People who have already previous knowledge of each quest wont be able to reap the rewards. What does this mean? Well, you've zapped our bank accounts, we can reap the rewards of previously won quests...so we're already paying a big price. I'm happy with that, and I know many are too. We'll take the hit so long as we can keep what we rightfully own.
I've said my long winded piece. Can we get an IMM response from all staff rather than from players with a bias? (no offense viri ^^ )
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I think most of the staff has already replied at least once on this thread. I've had my 2 cents, just reading what others are saying now so I can "consider everything in the long run". Yes, that means, I've not actually voted yet.
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Fraid I'm going to have to reply to a couple of these points. Others can feel free to add what they like to it though.
Nostalgia is mainly linked to the mud, not the equipment. People just pretend it's the equipment. Prom said he'd still imm, just not play, Natalya said she'd continue to drop by, just not play, Jason says he'd continue to run his clan, just not play, I don't imagine it'd be any different for you either. No one even plays anymore anyway, so personally I'm not too fussed if a couple people that just sit at recall all day are going to do the same thing after a PWipe.
98% of the playerbase is not made up of players that have spent 9+ years here.. I'm not even that old yet, and I'm one of the oldest left around here, please don't exaggerate so blatantly.
Unfortunately, they'll never be on the same playing field as us even if they invest more time into the game, Jason has about 1k more HP as a Thief than it should be possible for him to get, thanks to old bugs, Xeriuth has about 2k more HP as a Priest than it should be possible for him to get, thanks to old bugs, lots of old players have enchanted weapons that are still 5dr 5hr, these are no longer possible to get. Lots of old players gained houses through lumberjacking, this is no longer possible. I'm afraid it's fairly simple: new players will never reach the level old players are at currently, and it's not because old players have invested 9+ years into the game, it's because old players are lucky enough to have been around for all the best bugs.
4d was indeed on the brink of shutting down I think, our playerbase was dismal and the players we did have never did anything anyway. Hence why 4d had to be open to almost any changes if it might mean more players. To be honest I don't believe you 'busted your ass to get things thriving again' other than arguing about skill trees with people like Estidn.
What Prom and Nat and Jason have said is that they won't play anymore, they will still come around. And in Prom's case, he will just code. I see nothing different to what is happening now.
Your solutions as they stand are not really your solutions, it's exactly what I suggested earlier in this thread as a compromise that was shot down when you guys wanted to just lock away your characters for a while. And don't simply say 'and they have support' in bold trying to convince people if that is not the solution that is chosen we will lose everyone that gives that 'support' to that solution. You have You, Natalya, Jason, Riley, Prom(?), Diandra(?)... As opposed to myself, Hayato, Xeriuth, Once, Anubis, Molly, Asmoday, Britnoth, Thotter, Asmodeus, Tynian and I forget the rest that are on whichever side. The poll quite clearly shows which option has more support.
'Your' solution I have already addressed in the last Dodo Bird posts, which you don't seem to have responded to. It will create just as many aggravated players as any other half-assed solution.
Please stop just repeating the same stuff over and over again, we understand where you're coming from, we've read all of the points you continue to make multiple times, and addressed 99% of them. You don't seem to actually respond to anything anyone has said. If you can come up with a solution that WILL satisfy everybody, and will not leave a lot of players aggravated they randomly had all their tokens zapped when lots of players got to keep their non-liquid tokens (houses) then feel free to post it, otherwise it's beginning to get fairly repetitive.
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SO you're saying you haven't been here since 2000? If not, you're one of the oldest? I beg to differ :)
Let's see, I think Sarias has been here since 2002/3.
Riley earlier than Sarias I believe, but not by much.
Siresee, I remember when she was a newb. And she came not too long after me.
Emory, see above.
Tynian 1998, about the same time as me, a tad later. We became DJ assassins together.
Jason not too much later than that I think.
Belgarion, about the same as me. though now he's all invis and stuff. I may be wrong, maybe a tad later than me..or earlier. I dun
remember.
Xeriuth= ??
Hayato = ??
Yvei = He's popped in and out of here since 1999! I know because he's my little brother and I got him into mudding.
Once dates back to me.
Turin dates back to be.
Kvetch = hrm, 2004 maybe, correct me if i'm wrong kvetchie.
I would need numbers from Asmoday, and Asmodeus, but I think 2001/2ish for them. I could be wrong.
Natalya = ??
Virisin dates back to what? = You say you've not been here since 2000, so WHEN did you come here?
So we're really looking at what...7+ years? Nice. Not much of an exaggeration so far as I can tell. I ball parked it, I didn't exaggerate.
your opinions are your own, even if they're very STRONG ones. but listen. You cannot just say something is worth nothing when CLEARLY it is worth SOMETHING to someone. You're willing to cut your losses pbase wise to get what you want? That is not what playing and investing time into 4D is about. People didn't create chars, and build histories here to get screwed in the end.
So instead of debating how long the majority has been here, and whether or not something actual means anything to anyone. Let's have an actual constructive debate rather than bashing one's words time and time again. Viri, I hate to say it but your constant replies to every single post on here is more counter productive than anything. It is your idea, now leave it up to others to get their words in. Namely the IMMs.
btw- why do we have 20+ votes, and only like 5 people actually POSTING?
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I started playing when I was 11, I'm 19 now.. 8 years max.
Sarias is younger than me, Riley is younger than me, Siresee, Emory, Jason and Belg are all older than me but I wouldn't call active members of the playerbase. Xeri is younger than me, Hayato is younger than me, Once and Turin are older, but again not exactly active members of the playerbase, Kvetch is younger than me, Natalya is older than me...
Irrelevant really, seeing as Sarias and Riley are the only two active members of the playerbase you just mentioned.
Again you havn't responded to anything I've said, and I'm hardly just bashing one's words time and time again. I'm being as constructive as possible however it's getting to the point where I'm just repeating things I said on page 2 because you're just rewording your posts time after time. I have seen Prometheus post, I have seen Kvetch post, I have seen Diandra post, I have seen Molly and Anubis post multiple times. Who else are you waiting for?
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Just for the record, i was here before Viri :)
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Think you're pretty cool huh? You realize that lumps you in with Jason, Natalya, Once, Turin, Tocharaeh and Siresee right?
I don't even know what I'm getting at here. :'(
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yes as a matter of fact, i am pretty cool, thank you for noticing! 8)
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This is to Tochy, dude I have made enough posts on this matter and so has Molly. Diandra and Kvetch has made their points known as well and so has Prom.
A complete wipe is necessary, or we might as well not pwipe at all. I have always thought 4D was unique because of the great zones, and now, what you are saying is, just delete the levels etc and that only leaves you leveling - so yo are basically saying, you would rather just level in 4D and not enjoy the MAIN aspect of 4D, even if you have done it before?
Like I said in my previous posts, there are numerous reasons why a complete pwipe is necessary, and add to those reasons, we get to clean alot of unwanted junk (like very old, uber eq) that may cause imbalance to the game. So, economic reasons, inflationary reasons, cleaning out of old eq, and most importantly game balance. Consequence of this is we get to lower prices, which benefits the players that need them most - lower level players. Everything will then have a reason, things make more sense.
Instead of now, where potions and spells are at crazy prices, so newbies cant afford them, but the players who can afford them dont need it because they are either powerful or they already have spells that can live off without using coins. Now, gold coins are useless, TPs are next to useless, and so everything that is of value gets charged in tokens instead. So we really only have one currency - tokens.
Those are powerful reasons Tochy, very powerful. I'd do a pwipe just to maintain balance ALONE, let alone all the other wonderful reasons for a pwipe.
Now, list me a few UNSELFISH reasons why we shouldnt have this complete pwipe, reasons that will benefit the entire 4D and not just a select group of players.
I am tired of repeating that last point - I have listed all GAME BENEFITS, but there really isnt any game benefits not to have a pwipe.
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You know what. Not once have I seen anything concrete enough to sway my vote form depends to yes.
How does making me re-purchase my OWN stuff make things all hunky dory?
I love how currently the votes are split in half.
Give me VALID reasons why I should have to reinvest MY time into a game that just took everything away from me? You see it as selfish, I see it as my right as a longtime player here, as do the other 50% of the players who have NOT voted yes.
You want to re-balance gear? Great, once it's done then gimmie my newly balanced perzes. I paid for them. I may only have like 3 or 4, but you know what. they are MINE.
You say I'm selfish, and I reply "You bet I am.". You're trying to take MY time spend here away. What I've invested should be mine.
So if I bother to perz an item that I got form one of the hardest mobs in the game, that took HOURS to kill...am I wasting my time then? Am I going to have to spend HOURS to solo the same god forsaken mob just so you're happy?
I don't care if you wipe my other gear. I just don't. it is what FEW pieces I DO have I don't want to lose because some people are too thick headed and SELFISH to think about others concerns. You busy calling everyone who does not agree with you stupid, and you've yet to really be willing to meet us half way. We're willing to lose everything except for what we have paid for. how is that NOT fair?
If you just go through with a pwipe, it wont stop me playing. However, if the pbase suddenly drops sharply and we see less and less of my dear friends- I will not waste a single moment in telling you I told you so. You guys really have no clue how negatively a pwipe can impact a pbase. No clue at all. Especially a unique pbase like ours taht actually HAS to quest instead of doing auto-questing like larger muds do.
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So after a long and rather obnoxious discussion at Recall this is what I am hearing:
1) The value of tokens are GOING to go down. This would mean that it wouldn't (and should have never ever) cost 1 gold for a friggin marriage. It may only cost you a handful of silver to perz items, mounts, houses, and so on.
2) They really REALLY wanna pwipe.
3) Items are supposedly going to be changed to be balanced with the upcoming system which means you could end up with shitty perzes in the long run unless it's like the rainbow serpent skin.
So to you I say this: If you can guarantee the drop in value of tokens where the general PBASE will actually BENEFIT from them rather than those who abuse bug, and farm the hell out of everything. Then you'll have my YES vote.
Everyone should know that I have and have always maintained a very small amount of tokens. I'm not a farmer, and have never been as such. I explore, map, and rp. I quest the major quest zones, and then go about my rp-filled life. I am a social butterfly, not a hoarder. I never have been. I never will be. It just isn't my style
I cling to what I have earned because I know that what little I have, I have earned honestly and proudly. I have customized things to fit my rp stories. This isn't about my wanting to be top dog as thotter would LOVE to believe. I don't care about that kind of stuff. For me it has and will always continue to be about character development. What I own are products of that development. It's not the stats at all. It's what I've written, and worn for so many years now, even if they are only 3 items, and one mount.
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Once gear is rebalanced it's likely your perzes won't even be the best equipment in the game.. I don't understand why you are so adamant about keeping your set of equipment when after a PWipe, half of it won't be the best equipment in the game, you won't have any tokens and you will have all the flags and not be able to get anymore tokens..
You seem to be punishing yourself here and I'm kinda just confused really. The only real reason I can see is that you currently have a neck item that is better than any alternative neck item in the game, and that no one else in the game could possibly get. It kinda reminds me of Jason's scimitar, only that was cheating, yours is just an RP reward. Why in the hell someone thought uber equipment would be a good idea to use as an RP reward is frankly mind-boggling especially when there are no guidelines around it. Either way, I thought you were a pretty avid RPer and would do it for the sake of it, not for the rewards. Maybe that's not right?
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I love how whenever someone has something you don't have...you use it to support your argument. Viri, I will never understand you.
I clearly stated that you'd get a yes vote out of me if the token system would really change for the better. Why on earth are we arguing further on this matter?
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Sorry, replied to that before seeing your second post. And yes, when someone has something I don't have that I cannot get, it does bother me. I am a competitive player and I strive to be the best. It's fairly simple.
On 1. I'm not entirely sure the value of tokens is definitely going to go down. I havn't talked to Anubis about it, but there are a heck of a lot of tokens available out there and I see no reason to decrease their value at all.
On 2. Yep
On 3. Yes they are.
Why is guaranteeing the drop in value of tokens the only thing that will give us your yes vote? That just makes the game easier.. Is an easier game what you've been gunning for this whole time?
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Oh, I forgot to say I'd play again, because I"d have something new to do!
If you want something new to do start a new charater, or RP, or build a new zone, find something to do.
I don't support a pwipe, never will. I don't like to spend my time on achieveing something just to get it all stripped away. From my experience on another mud it took months if not years to get enough quest points to get gear from those was like 15K points to get an awesome weapon, and being active in questing each time to achieve that point of getting that all from like 10 to 20 points per quest, was something I enjoyed working for. But, would I want to do that all over again? No, and I just feel that's the same way here, and mind you that mud had about 10-15 ACTIVE players (not counting their multiplayed chars) which would bring up the boot time highs to 20+. With one pwipe killed the mud.
People probably still wonder why I still haven't bother to remort Riley yet. I would, but I don't want to lose any more spells or skills than I already have with the stupid trainers...
Whether or not you do a pwipe to set us all on "even" ground (even used lightly cause nothing is ever fully even unless the whole mud was redone). That won't draw in new players like you would expect it would. Old players will leave, new players might come, and what really changes? Instead of a few level 50's sitting at recall you have a few level 1's sitting at recall cause they don't want to work to get anything else done, because in a year or two there will just be another pwipe.
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Riley Joins the Band of Philosophers. former members,
Darvus the wise, Alexis the wise II, and now Riley the wise III.
Hail the Philosophers. down with the pwipe
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I think Riley came before Alexis to be honest.
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Oh, just want to comment on the rp award thingy:
You were extremely active in 2007, and chose not to participate when the IMMs had the big event for xmas. Everyone who participated actually got something, runners up got tokens and so on. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd got items of varied value. To me this is extremely fair.
Be pissed off at cheater equipment and so on. Don't get pissed at players who try to be as involved as possible when things come up, and fight for those prizes.
Personally, if you won a cool ankle piece or earring because of an event. More power too you. You'd never ever hear me comnplain about it. You put int the effort, and the imms saw that.
Oh and I've been working on writing a very nice RP event for 4d concerning Tocharaeh as the Arch-Villain. Winners of the event would each get something unique. I think that any event is no different than a zone quest, but since an event may only ever happen once (depending on the degree/extent of the event) there is no reason why rewards cannot be unique.
Just my 2 cents.
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SO you're saying you haven't been here since 2000? If not, you're one of the oldest? I beg to differ :)
Let's see, I think Sarias has been here since 2002/3.
Riley earlier than Sarias I believe, but not by much.
Siresee, I remember when she was a newb. And she came not too long after me.
Emory, see above.
Tynian 1998, about the same time as me, a tad later. We became DJ assassins together.
Jason not too much later than that I think.
Belgarion, about the same as me. though now he's all invis and stuff. I may be wrong, maybe a tad later than me..or earlier. I dun
remember.
Xeriuth= ??
Hayato = ??
Yvei = He's popped in and out of here since 1999! I know because he's my little brother and I got him into mudding.
Once dates back to me.
Turin dates back to be.
Kvetch = hrm, 2004 maybe, correct me if i'm wrong kvetchie.
I would need numbers from Asmoday, and Asmodeus, but I think 2001/2ish for them. I could be wrong.
Natalya = ??
Virisin dates back to what? = You say you've not been here since 2000, so WHEN did you come here?
So we're really looking at what...7+ years? Nice. Not much of an exaggeration so far as I can tell. I ball parked it, I didn't exaggerate.
your opinions are your own, even if they're very STRONG ones. but listen. You cannot just say something is worth nothing when CLEARLY it is worth SOMETHING to someone. You're willing to cut your losses pbase wise to get what you want? That is not what playing and investing time into 4D is about. People didn't create chars, and build histories here to get screwed in the end.
So instead of debating how long the majority has been here, and whether or not something actual means anything to anyone. Let's have an actual constructive debate rather than bashing one's words time and time again. Viri, I hate to say it but your constant replies to every single post on here is more counter productive than anything. It is your idea, now leave it up to others to get their words in. Namely the IMMs.
btw- why do we have 20+ votes, and only like 5 people actually POSTING?
I started here when I was 12. I'm 23 years old now (24 next year). Sooooo.. I go back to 1998 too.
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I really hope I havn't come across as thinking anyone's opinions are worthless or invalid, and I certainly don't think Anubis or anyone else meant to either. The reason I make so many posts on the forum is because I really do want to know what other peoples opinions are on things, I quite often require a good discussion to cement my own opinion. Yes, I understand I argue fairly staunchly once I've made up my opinion, I know that and I apologize if I come across as condescending at times.
I'm actually quite gutted reading this line though:
The point of a mature, ADULT discussion/debate is to discuss different ideas and seek out different opinions and LISTEN to them, not just say "NO, what you think is not valid, fuck off".
I have honestly done my best to spark constructive debate on all of these issues, and have made a pointed effort to read and reply to every post made. Almost all of my posts are probably too long, but I specifically tried not to simply sound like I was dismissing anyone's posts or swearing at anyone.
:-\
Edit: Ah, you edited your post. I might just leave mine here because I imagine you're not the only one thinking what you did write, and my post can be directed at everyone. :)
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mmmm long meaty posts. *highfives viri* we should get statues for being long winded.
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Ok, so let me get the two lines of thought I see written:
1) Pwipe - complete and total. Gets rid of any unique/horded/uber eq. Gets questflags off players so they can redo the quests. Makes it so eq is how it is supposed to be. Gets rid of any eq that someone may have bought with tokens from an overused bug/builder not seeing the big picture/etc.
Balances the economy (goldwise) causing mobs to drop less gold (as they should) and letting items (like potions) cost less (as they should) instead of gold economy being non-existant due to the amount of gold everyone (except newbies) has. Balances the token economy (overall - as older players have knowledge of quests and thus will be able to get their tokens again realatively quickly -but again, gets rid of things that were bought with tokens players shouldn't have had).
2) No pwipe, but you can lower me to level 1 and I want to keep my house/perz/rpeq/mount/marriage/etc. Keep the questflags on so I can't redo the quests. Perz eq can be lowered to what it should be instead of being uber because of some glitch/bug/builder cheats/old building guidelines/the oedit bug/etc, but I want to keep it.
Let me know if this is how it's being argued because that's the breakdown of how I see it.
One thing to point out about choice 2 though is that it doesn't get rid of things that players shouldn't have had because of bad building (quest/cheat/etc)/bugs/anything else.
Edit: Ok, was pointed out that pwipe doesn't BALANCE the economy just resets it. So, I will put in this - hopefully the economy will be BALANCED by the coders/builders so if a pwipe happens the RESET means more. *blah* I hate politictions who need each word to be exactly right. And I thought lawyers were bad.
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I'm not sure this applies to many of us....but what about those of us who got our houses as building rewards waaaay back when? This is how I earned my basic house...I would be unhappy to lose it. It was my motivating factor for building a zone. I haven't the time to play enough and would be unhappy to lose my entire collection of everything because I haven't the time to redo all that stuff. A part of why I went inactive was the last pwipe...I'm too old and have too much crap to deal with to game 24/7 to rebuild everything and I still haven't recovered from that last wipe.
I'd simply deal with another pwipe by continuing to camp recall in rp eq rather than playing because i feel at "home" in this mud....but I'd be pissed about losing my house. I was in the building for the promised house...I delivered the zone and was paid with a house (rather than the token reward). I don't think I'll start back playing though, until this is decided...I'm too lazy to waste any effort :P
On a side note, I'm silly and some of my perzes are nostalgic because of who I was with when I earned it or who gave me the item, etc. I have many "gifts" that I've held on to for this reason alone...most of my perzes aren't even good eq anymore, but I still don't want to lose them...it was hard creating "me." I understand that the mud is changing, etc. etc. and since I'm not active lately I feel I don't really have a right to an opinion, but I'm old, disgruntled, bitchy, and greedy, so I though I'd speak up anyway :)
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SO you're saying you haven't been here since 2000? If not, you're one of the oldest? I beg to differ :)
Let's see, I think Sarias has been here since 2002/3.
Riley earlier than Sarias I believe, but not by much.
Siresee, I remember when she was a newb. And she came not too long after me.
Emory, see above.
Tynian 1998, about the same time as me, a tad later. We became DJ assassins together.
Jason not too much later than that I think.
Belgarion, about the same as me. though now he's all invis and stuff. I may be wrong, maybe a tad later than me..or earlier. I dun
remember.
Xeriuth= ??
Hayato = ??
Yvei = He's popped in and out of here since 1999! I know because he's my little brother and I got him into mudding.
Once dates back to me.
Turin dates back to be.
Kvetch = hrm, 2004 maybe, correct me if i'm wrong kvetchie.
I would need numbers from Asmoday, and Asmodeus, but I think 2001/2ish for them. I could be wrong.
Natalya = ??
Virisin dates back to what? = You say you've not been here since 2000, so WHEN did you come here?
So we're really looking at what...7+ years? Nice. Not much of an exaggeration so far as I can tell. I ball parked it, I didn't exaggerate.
your opinions are your own, even if they're very STRONG ones. but listen. You cannot just say something is worth nothing when CLEARLY it is worth SOMETHING to someone. You're willing to cut your losses pbase wise to get what you want? That is not what playing and investing time into 4D is about. People didn't create chars, and build histories here to get screwed in the end.
So instead of debating how long the majority has been here, and whether or not something actual means anything to anyone. Let's have an actual constructive debate rather than bashing one's words time and time again. Viri, I hate to say it but your constant replies to every single post on here is more counter productive than anything. It is your idea, now leave it up to others to get their words in. Namely the IMMs.
btw- why do we have 20+ votes, and only like 5 people actually POSTING?
I started here when I was 12. I'm 23 years old now (24 next year). Sooooo.. I go back to 1998 too.
I started somewhere around 1997...It was before I had my kidlet...I started playing when I was pregnant because I wanted to kill stuff IRL (hormones) and couldn't.
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This is exactly my point in this whole deal.
Even if my EQ sucks perz wise in the change over. They are still my perzes. I earned them. Emory is no different. In fact, I would like it if her and others like her who had been given houses by the old (and way better house reward system) way of doing things. She put in the effort to create amazing quests for us, and has many things to show for it.
So, what do we do about those people? I say don't even come close to touching them with a 10ft pole.
While many who fully support the pwipe are all focused on stats and power.. there are those of us who are a million years old, and there are things that we hold dear. It's not about the eq becoming obsolete. It's about the memories behind those pieces, those houses, those mounts, and so on.
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Here is a suggestion for gold economy. Make all of the friggin shops actual shops. You can't hardly sell a thing anywhere, yet we have tons and tons of useless eq that just gets junked. Let players gather all of their junk pieces and run from armor shops to potion shops, trying to sell their finds. Create a barter subskill or whatever so that there is an occasional increase of profit when selling to shopkeepers.
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Inconsistency is not a good thing in a mud though I don't think, and for instance: builders no longer get a house for building a zone - they get 1 gold token.
Would it be okay if you were allowed to have your perzes back as free RP eq after a pwipe Toch?
Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.
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On that note, Toch, to keep the economy balanced, the builders (screams and runs for cover as she finishes this statement) would have to go though each and every item and make their costs relavent to the new economy.
*peers out from her hiding spot*
What I mean is this...
Dagger: 2d10, +3 Damroll, +2Con
Worth: 500,000
(are you kidding me?)
So, I find said worthless (in a fight) dagger and sell it - what would be a good sell on a 500,000gold weapon? 10%? That's 5,000 gold that we're putting into the economy for selling a worthless dagger. Ok, I admit that I'm calling it worthless because everyone knows you can max all stats easily (at least that's what everyone tells me) so the con is worthless. The damroll may be better than con, but seriously, who's going to keep ahold of a 2d10 weapon just because of +3 damage? And that was just the first dagger I looked at. I can only imagine what others are.
Having said that, I am all for selling stuff at the shops, but I also thinks that shops should have a set amount of money. Depending on the village/town that the shop is in, they may have only 10,000 gold to spend on buying items - at least until someone buys something from them - so if you sell two of the aforementioned daggers to the shop, you've busted the bank until the shop sells something to someone else - a potion or whatnot.
I serioulsy don't know what Anubis has in mind for money sinks to help keep the economy from ballooning out of control - I really hope he has a plan otherwise we'll be right back into this same mess in 6 months to a year. I've often asked for the weapon/armor damage/repair to be put back in - as one of the ways to get some gold spent in the game. After all, damage to weapons and armor while they're being used, is more "real" than everything always being at 100%.
Speaking of.. *Kvetch goes running after a random thought*
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Inconsistency is not a good thing in a mud though I don't think, and for instance: builders no longer get a house for building a zone - they get 1 gold token.
Would it be okay if you were allowed to have your perzes back as free RP eq after a pwipe Toch?
Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.
But why should I lose a reward that I, in good faith, earned? What the current reward is should have no effect on previously completed agreements...I understand this is just a game, but that's like retroactively deciding an agreed payment was "too much" and going back and confiscating it.
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Also I agree about shops. It would be nice if shops actually bought things, and we could buy things from some far away shop and sell them at a slightly better price from another far away shop as well as just selling the junk we find on our travels.
That would only be worthwhile if the "another far away shop" is farther from the source of the thing you bought than where you bought it. Ok.. that was confusing. Let me liken this to a game I play. Actually, they are lots of games, but it's all based around the same thing: Eurorails, North American Rails, Nikkon Rails, etc, etc (even Lunar Rails - don't ask, I'm not tellin'). The whole game is based upon picking up one item from one location and then dropping it off at another location that wants the item. Depending on where the location is depends on how much they're willing to spend for it because of how close/far they are from another city that carries the item. For exampe (Let's use North American Rails - only because I live in the US and may actually know where a few of the cities I'm going to spout off are located): Let's say that Boise, Idaho wants Oranges. You can get oranges in either California or florida. Now, Boise doesn't care which oranges they get, they just want oranges. So, since California is closer to Idaho than Florida is, they'll only pay based on what it's worth to get it from California - just because YOU picked up the oranges in Florida doesn't mean they're going to pay more for them.
This is fun. You all are finding out what sort of person I am by the games I play when I'm not playing 4D. Strange, isn't it?
It would be interesting if something like this could be worked into the game, but as in the rail game - once you built your rails, what is there to stop you from making money without spending it? (In 4D terms - once you find out the best location for selling an item - even if you buy an item in one shop and transfer it to another - what's to stop you from basically "grinding/botting" until you're back to having basically unlimited gold?)
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I agree totally, which is why I think a pwipe that affects everyone in the exact same way is the only fair way of doing things - as long as everyone looks at the benefit to the mud objectively. If we start trying to confiscate houses from people that earned their houses through lumberjacking, and not actually building an awesome zone like the parts of Egypt you made, Emory, that are now integral to 4d.. We're walking down a slippery slope.
I do see where you're coming from though, and the people that got houses from building are some of the only people that I could actually potentially see being allowed to keep their houses afterwards..
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Any buying/selling between shops is pretty hard to balance, you're right Kvetch. Any profits would have to be minimal if at all. Not sure it'd be possible to code any of that stuff you talked about in, without giving every room in 4d a coded co-ordinate like Outer Space though..
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Alright, I expect this to be an extremely long post, so I will try to break it up into short paragraphs ;)
Okay, first issue, playerwipe or no playerwipe? Full or partial?
"I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong." - Natalya
I agree with the pwipe. I also agree that it is very unfair to everyone, but the issue that many people seem to forget is:
If we do not have a pwipe now, we will have one when the mud dies.
Why?
"but from talking to the coders it's obviously a bunch of hacked together stuff that looks like a cat threw up - not a pretty picture. The way to really get things working right is to start from scratch - coding wise first. Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse." - Kvetch
It is unfair - because everyone has wasted their time already, on a mud that wasnt upto scratch gameplay wise.
Do not take a pwipe out of context. It cannot be just a reset to fix old grandfathered items, token inflation or whatever.
It *must* be the end result of totally replacing the hack + slash elements in the game. Grouping, classes, races, char builds, skills, spells, physical stats, all need to be looked at and rethought.
If (and I mean if, I dont hold my breath here) this is done, then we have to have a pwipe. Imagine you play snakes and ladders for 10 years, and then move to playing risk, would you keep your old scores and playing pieces from playing snakes and ladders? No, of course not.
To make the pwipe valid, the game really has to change to be good enough to match the quality of the zones and the playerbase 4D has.
Alright, we have a pwipe if we get stuff fixed. But what is 'fixed' exactly?
"Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse." - Kvetch
This is why I do not favour the 'skill trees' being proposed. To me, it is exactly 'patching' over the cracks in the game rather than fixing the core elements of the game. We will still have the irritating features that make no sense and limit gameplay.
It also makes little sense in reality.
Ah, bringing up reality in a fantasy time travel mud involving magic where you cannot technically die? Yeah I know, but if something doesn't make sense to you, it's often a good warning that what you want to do is likely to confuse players and limit the game experience.
Prime examples: Charisma increases spell damage and gives you more hitpoints when you level. Damroll is the only important bonus for melee types.
How does being pretty or showing empathy give you a more powerful magic missile or help you absorb more physical damage before you die? Its confusing, and counterproductiove to have one stat *both* improve your spells and make you gain more HP. Same with damroll - its the only bonus that really matters once you have anything like decent equip. What even is damroll again? Wouldn't like, strength govern how hard I hit instead? Intelligence or widsom affect spellpower more? Dexterity affect my ability to avoid attacks rather than armour?
Who knows what mord was smoking. :P
So, we get a skill 'tree', where you are limited in the total number of skill choices you can have.
Well we already have normal skills and spells do we not? Are all skills and spells going to be like that or just a certain number of them? The big danger here is that we have a large variation in the usefulness of these skilltree options, making everyone pick the same things... and then there is:
"Option 2: Option 1 + 'skill rank' introduced as a stat available on some equipment. A weapon might have say, backstab +5 which would directly influence their backstabbing multiplier and maybe turn a 2k backstab into a 3k backstab." - Virisin
Okay... IF skill trees were implemented, then this is how they must be done. We need variation in equipment, to get that we need real choices that are genuinely different for different characters. Skill trees would be designed to bring variation and balance to characters to encourage grouping and interdependency.
To bring this to equpiment too, we would undoubtedly need to have items giving some kind of bonus to these choices, such as +5 backstab skill on an item.
But this causes a big issue - you're basicly saying that all the good items in the mud will need to be looked at and such skill bonuses like that to be distributed among them. So, to do the job right imms are going to have a significant amount of work editing equipment already in the game...
Now back to my earlier point - how is it reasonable to limit a character to only learning *some* skills, and then not learning anything ever again? It seems counterintuitive to anyone coming at it from a fresh viewpoint. While at the same time, if we keep how player stats curretly work, everyone will have maximum strength, dexterity, constituion, wisdom, intelligence, and spellcasters with good charisma. The stats being easy to max.
Characters will only learn a lmited number of skills or spells or whatever, but they will all be super strong, intelligent, agile, etc. etc?
Where is the logic here? My view is that it makes more sense to reverse this - to allow players to slowly learn new skills and spells, but to have a maximum limit on the total level of *physical* type stats the character has.
IE: if you have high str, dex, con etc, and you are a tough melee type, you do not have good int, wisdom, or other spellcasting related stats and so your spells will be awful. BUT you can still learn them, even if your ability is greatly reduced.
Similarly a character built to be good spellcasting will be bad in melee, but they could still choose to learn those skills if they wished to. It is just weak from having poor strength, dex or whichever.
How could you do this? simple: look to remove the hard caps on stats. Make stats the important determining factor in combat, remove hitroll and damroll and speed, so only 1 stat is used in determining success, failure, damage etc instead of several.
You then are fixing what currently lets the mud down, and simplifying the game for new players, not adding another layer of complexity onto an already barely functioning game system.
Of course, removing hr, dr, speed boni etc means editing a ton of good items to make them valuable again, right? But... if skill trees were done correctly some item editing is going to have to happen at some point anyway, to make it worthwhile - so isn't it better to take the harder path and make the game simpler as we go?
Doing it this way also has a major bonus, at least to me: With characters defined by their physical strengths, classes become redundant. You can even get rid of classes if you want to and allow people to train up their stats (with a total stat cap to prevent people being good at everything).
This lets you tailor your character to how you want it, choose the eq you want to improve the strengths your character has, *and* allows you to divide your stats between *types* of character, in effect giving you the option of playing a *true multiclass* character. That was the original intention of the tier system in 4d before it was then destroyed with grand masters.
This is how my favourite mud did things: Personally I've never came across another mud which came close to the flexibility and freedom it provided players, and the variation in equipment it had. I don't think it wouldd be a bad idea to emulate at least parts of it.
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Thanks for taking the time to actually write an in depth response Britnoth, one of the best in the thread.
It *must* be the end result of totally replacing the hack + slash elements in the game. Grouping, classes, races, char builds, skills, spells, physical stats, all need to be looked at and rethought.
I agree, and a PWipe would definitely only be truly considered after full playtesting of a new system and if it was agreed the new system was worth it. I also do hope the new system does address all of those points. It's what I'm aiming for.
Prime examples: Charisma increases spell damage and gives you more hitpoints when you level. Damroll is the only important bonus for melee types.
I agree, charisma was a half-assed attempt at making it a worthwhile stat whilst also trying to differentiate casters from meleers. I guess it was an attempt to hit two birds with one stone, which seems to have not ended up working out very well.
"Option 2: Option 1 + 'skill rank' introduced as a stat available on some equipment. A weapon might have say, backstab +5 which would directly influence their backstabbing multiplier and maybe turn a 2k backstab into a 3k backstab." - Virisin
Okay... IF skill trees were implemented, then this is how they must be done. We need variation in equipment, to get that we need real choices that are genuinely different for different characters. Skill trees would be designed to bring variation and balance to characters to encourage grouping and interdependency.
Glad someone finally responded to this, I agree with option 2, glad I'm not the only one.
On to your suggestions:
Now back to my earlier point - how is it reasonable to limit a character to only learning *some* skills, and then not learning anything ever again? It seems counterintuitive to anyone coming at it from a fresh viewpoint. While at the same time, if we keep how player stats curretly work, everyone will have maximum strength, dexterity, constituion, wisdom, intelligence, and spellcasters with good charisma. The stats being easy to max.
As you said, I really don't think realism is a mud's most important goal, however on this point.. How is it reasonable for a character to learn EVERY skill or spell? In real life, someone good at boxing might also be strong and fast and good at a few other boxing related skills, but they're probably not going to be amazing bards.. I see nothing unrealistic about this, and think skill trees are a fairly realistic adaptation of real life to be honest.
I do agree the stats are too easy to max though and I don't think it should be a given that players can simply max all of their stats. I think this will be looked at.
Characters will only learn a lmited number of skills or spells or whatever, but they will all be super strong, intelligent, agile, etc. etc?
Where is the logic here? My view is that it makes more sense to reverse this - to allow players to slowly learn new skills and spells, but to have a maximum limit on the total level of *physical* type stats the character has.
IE: if you have high str, dex, con etc, and you are a tough melee type, you do not have good int, wisdom, or other spellcasting related stats and so your spells will be awful. BUT you can still learn them, even if your ability is greatly reduced.
Similarly a character built to be good spellcasting will be bad in melee, but they could still choose to learn those skills if they wished to. It is just weak from having poor strength, dex or whichever.
I think we could have both, rather than one or the other. As I said above, I think skill trees are a realistic way of looking at things and I've always thought skill trees were awesome anyway even if they arn't realistic. :P I do agree though that taking player stats into account when we talk about character builds would be a good thing though. I've always hated how easy it is to max player stats, and I would support some kind of stat point cap on players, without actually having any cap on the stats themselves - so long as the stats are balanced in their benefits. That is extremely important.
How could you do this? simple: look to remove the hard caps on stats. Make stats the important determining factor in combat, remove hitroll and damroll and speed, so only 1 stat is used in determining success, failure, damage etc instead of several.
You then are fixing what currently lets the mud down, and simplifying the game for new players, not adding another layer of complexity onto an already barely functioning game system.
Removing the hard cap on stats is a good idea, but as I said I think a cap on player point stats is a good thing as well, otherwise we'll end up with equipment inflation again and players will just end up with higher stats than before. Some kind of cap on player stats is necessary in order to promote different builds - just like with skill trees and the cap on practice sessions.
Of course, removing hr, dr, speed boni etc means editing a ton of good items to make them valuable again, right? But... if skill trees were done correctly some item editing is going to have to happen at some point anyway, to make it worthwhile - so isn't it better to take the harder path and make the game simpler as we go?
Let's hope the builders are willing.
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I was just thinking about something and thought I should post it to get opinions on it. So as i've stated, i'm all for the complete and total pwipe. However, I started to get thinking about our amazing builders here, and how they get certain awards for building zones. But now with a pwipe, they're losing any award/reward they got for putting actual hard work into making the game better (not just leveling and such). Now, THERE is something they can't get back by just mindless killing and non-mindless questing, considering if they did every quest, they couldn't get those particular things back. I'm sort of leaning towards allowing builders keep what they earned with their months of hard work to make the game better for us players, especially since its not like their zones are getting wiped... just a thought. Unless of course you think a good reward is keeping their imm after the wipe?
Again, just posting random ideas... thoughts?
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I think the Player-builders should keep their rewards. If it weren't for them, especially Emory, we wouldn't have about 80% of the amazing zones that we do. If you take away what they earned, it's a huge slap in the face.
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I know Egypt is an awesome zone, but I don't think Emory accounts for 80% of the amazing zones in 4d. :P
Also, I think Emory's case was an unusual one rather than the norm. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think builders always used to get houses as a reward for building a zone. I'm pretty on the fence though on this one. Token rewards for houses is something there are actual rules in force around so it's pretty consistent and I personally wouldn't mind builders being reimbursed the 1 gold token or whatever. Not sure about Emory's case.
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House rewards for zones was always the norm in old code. It was how they promoted mud growth. Actually, it was the only reason I even started building to be honest. Right after the switch they took that rule away. Now it's 1 gold/100 rooms.
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Really? I heard the Emory situation was a deal and wasn't at all the norm in the situation. Maybe my memory is just foggy but I don't remember the change with the new code at all. Ah the joys of old age. :P
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I know Egypt is an awesome zone, but I don't think Emory accounts for 80% of the amazing zones in 4d. :P
*ahem*
Two of the Egypt zones are actually mine, Ancient Egypt and The Valley of the King. :)
Emory made the Nile, The Egyptian Desert and The Temple of Hatshepsut.
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Really? I heard the Emory situation was a deal and wasn't at all the norm in the situation. Maybe my memory is just foggy but I don't remember the change with the new code at all. Ah the joys of old age. :P
No, I finished my zone just in time to qualify under the house for a zone rule. I did get an imm for the other sections of the zone....but that imm doesn't really have any powers and can't do anything...so it's just like a high lvl chatty person...I also didn't really ASK for it...I wanted the house...which was actually built into one of my zones (because it was known that I was building for that specific reward, I was allowed to build it at the same time). If I could see any way my house would affect y'all's "economy" I'd shut up...but pretty much all I've ever used the house for is to hold my junk collections....I like collecting "things" but none of them are ever rare, important, worth anything, etc. or to hold RP events (I've done a few out at my house).
I've never claimed to have built all of Egypt...and I'm aware that Molly's part is better than mine :) I did enjoy building and just had slacked off to go back to school. Having finished that, I'd like to get back into the game in some manner or another.
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I know you built VoTK/Town, Molly. lol.
Welp, if that's the case then Emory I wouldn't mind if you kept your house. It'd be up to Molly whether builders should keep their houses.
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You know. I still don't totally buy into this "letting players who already own houses, perzes, and mounts keep all of the above plus all/percentage of their tokens" could cause problems in the new code. I've really been thinking on this whole problem and so far and here are my opinions on the matter:
1) If the value of tokens drops, and things become cheaper, all quests rewards will need to drop as well. Why? Because of our knowledge of the mud. Because of this, we can easily go through all low level quests and buy back our perzes, and mounts with ease.
Because of this, it won't really change anything unless we cut back the token rewards of quests, and also remove the ability to token farm of which a few are very capable of.
2) If they have their home/furniture it will mean that they'll have more tokens available for perzes, and house expansions and/or mounts later. I personally do not see how that would be a bad thing.
3) If some peoples perzes are going to have stats dumb down anyway, they should keep them. You're not only penalizing them for their efforts, but now you're removing all stat relevance...so they might as well keep them.
Finally. I have played many many many-a-mrpg and not once have I ever witnessed any pwipe-like actions without compensation. Pay-to-plays included. Why? Because they WANT to keep their players. What I'm seeing here in this board is zero real consideration for the players. You're more focused on FUTURE players, but not on the players that actually keep 4D alive. When we had the last pwipe, even with the grandfathering of things, we still lost a LOT of people. GOOD people. People we'll never see again. Why? Because we went from a very basic system that was perfectly fine in it's simplicity and imposed a suddenly new system on everyone and caused everyone to (even with their eq) work from the ground up again in an even more tedious grind system. back them we were comfortable with simplicity. We moved from sweet and simple to simple and half-assed with no real direction.
4D is free to play. 4D is also fortunate (and I don't use that word lightly) to have any semblance of playerbase. We're asking the loyal pbase to start over from complete scratch based upon the theories of token value inflation and so forth, and power imbalances. None of these matter if we DON'T lose our loyal pbase that is already highly experienced in the mud. Why? Because they know how to manipulate it. Nothing will change unless you change the mud on the quest level as well.
My suggestion would be this:
If the test port is exactly like game port then I would say you should copy any and all pfiles to that port so that we may be able to test it at our fullest ability (eq, house, mount, rpreward, token, gold). I want us to see how much of an ACTUAL imbalance we will see. After copying everyone's pfile over to test port, do the wipe of levels, and have everyone who participates reroll stats and so forth.
I would rather see us actually TEST FOR than ASSUME the existence of a potentially Armageddon-like imbalance like many of you claim.
Finally: The new system is supposed to encourage the making of alts. The skill tree system is basically limitless is combo's, and because of this players are going to want to make alts to try out each class and so on. So, why wipe current players accounts at all? They'll level through like they like, and make alts for the other classes. In fact, players will all be so busy trying to find class combo's they like anyhow that to be honest...that whole deal will balance the mud out because players will reroll so many times trying to figure out where they want to be. Most players will know what they like bt the 20's, and/or 30's. If not, they'll reroll and try it again. They wont really go anywhere for a long time. Myself included. This being the case, then everyone having everything when they start off in the new system wont really change anything. They'll be TOO busy trying to get it right, and get comfortable in a proper class.
Remember that even though we are free to play, we are going to run the risk of losing a large chunk of our players by removing their rights the the things they've earned. The new system will instill new interest in the game for sure, but only if they have something aside from friends that still ties them to this place. Removing their houses, mounts, and eq will sever forever their personalized ties to a place they have a long history with.
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The new system is not meant to encourage making alts.. We're moving away from being forced to try out every single class so we can stick with the one we want. The rest of your post is just the same stuff you've said for like 10 pages now so I can't be bothered replying and you probably won't read or listen to what I say anyway.
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...The rest of your post is just the same stuff you've said for like 10 pages now so I can't be bothered replying...
Says Virisin in reply to Toch :o
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The new system is not meant to encourage making alts.. We're moving away from being forced to try out every single class so we can stick with the one we want.
Um, what are you talking about? That's exactly what skill trees does!!! Now, come back to reality and let's start talking like proper adults who understand the true implications behind large scale changes.
Why does it seem like I am one of the only ones in touch with reality here?
Also, my recent post was intended more for the IMMs rather than the players on this. You're not an IMM. I want a reply from Molly, Diandra, Kvetch, SHORTY, and so on. Speaking of Shorty? Any chance we can get the big guy in on this discussion? This is HIS mud for christ sakes.
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Tochy, just because you dont see how things affect the economy, doesnt make it true that there wont be any effects. Ptesting inflation is impossible, it happens over time, and usually, if you manage inflation well, then everyone is all happy. When I was a youngster, icy poles cost 10c and icecream costed 15c and I considered that a luxury! Now they cost over $1 but guess what? It doesnt feel painful to spend that money to buy it.
Now lets look at 4d. 500k for stoneskin that lasts only a few ticks? Thats painful, even when you can afford it. Alot of things were gained during periods of bugs, bad designs, etc whereby there are not alot of outlets where the gains could be spent. Now, I will try to plug all the holes and ensure that everything makes sense and there will be outlets where you need to spend gold, or tokens or TPs. You cannot create an inflation-free mud if you inherit all the items that caused inflation in the first place. How can you not see that? How can we lower prices of everything, if you already have everything and now, you can earn more tokens, and gold etc and things are so much cheaper?
So the main point is, this cannot be ptested. Only gameplay can be ptested.
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So Tochy wants a response from an Imm, and in particular from Shorty, since 'This is HIS mud '.
But is it really? Sure, Shorty is one of the Founders, and without him and Kalten there wouldn't even be a 4D. But, let's face it, he kind of lost interest years back and even if he still logs on sometimes to socialize a bit, he hasn't been active for a very long time. And if he hasn't even realised by now that this discussion is going on, he is not likely to have an opinion.
So who IS the owner? Normally the one that has the server or pays the bills for it is considered the owner, so in that case that would be me. Another way of looking at it would be that the Coders own the mud, because they have unlimited access to everything. But to me everyone who puts down significant and consistent work on the Mud - builders and coders alike - is a co-owner, so in that case we have several owners.
Anyhow, here is my own response: (All this has probably all been said before, so regard it as a summing up).
1. The pwipe and the equip wipe are two different things.
We need the pwipe for the new combat system to work, and to revive the Mud, where currently most older players just idle at Recall.
Hopefully the new combat system and the skill trees can bring some new interest and challenges for everyone, old and new players alike. But for it to work, everybody needs to start from scratch. There really is no way to keep your level and still have a go at the new system, it's too different.
The change will have to be playtested before we even think of putting it in the gameport, so for quite a while we're going to run paralell ports.
We need the equip wipe to get rid of inflation, and a number of overpowered 'illegal' objects that are still in the game, but hard to track down, because those that have them guard their secrets.
The pwipe seems to be pretty accepted by most players by now, but some players cling to their belongings, for various reasons; power, status, lazyness, or sheer nostalgia.
2. The equip and house wipe needs to be all or nothing.
Letting some players keep their tokens, houses and perzes would only creates imbalance and resentment, since we'd have to draw the line somewhere, and everyone below that line will suffer the most and feel that they were treated injustly.
It also won't work against inflation. We want things like houses and perzes and heals to be cheaper, so that those things won't be out of reach for the newer players, who are the ones needing them the most.
We tried a half ass compromise the only other time we had to do a major overhaul, the so called 'grandfather clause' that Toch mentioned. I sometimes think that many of the oldbies stopped playing, or started idling at Recall because of the grandfather clause rather than in spite of it, since it gave them such a big head start that they didn't need to make an effort. And most of the players that left had lost interest in the game even before. I also think that the grandfather clause is at the root of our present inflation, because instead of dealing with the problems back then, we just made them bigger.
3. If we do an equipwipe, we also need to wipe all questflags.
Otherwise people won't have the chance to get their stuff back, because nowadays all quests are set up so that you only get the big token reward once.
4. Even with an equipwipe, the older players will have big advantages.
Sure, the older players usually have a lot more to lose than the newer ones.
But in return it will be easier for them to level, because they know their way around the world, where to find useful things and where to fight at different levels.
It will also be easier for them to redo the quests, because a quest is really just hard the first time. Even if you forgot what you did, it will be easier to figure out again. It's like cycling. Once you learnt the technique it never goes away.
Knowledge is the one thing we cannot take away.
So the older players, who choose to actually continue playing, will race right to the top again.
The active players, (meaning the ones that are currently active) will also have big advantages, even if they are lower level, since they will be up to par with the newest zones and the latest changes in the older ones - and the zones will be the same.
I don't see this as a bad thing. It's natural that people should have some advantages for playing the Mud for such a long time.
5. With an equipwipe we'll be able to lower prices on just about everything.
The prices are insane right now, due to inflation, both token and gold are affected.
As an example, a house used to cost 1 gold token. Now even the cheapest house costs 5 gold.
Newbies, who are the ones that really need potions, cannot afford them, while the older players, who use spells instead, just ackumulate gold.
All economies suffer inflation over time, but in some cases it goes out of hand.
In our case, the inflation was caused by mainly 4 things; an unstable code, some crash bugs, buggy quest scripts and badly designed features. I'll have to take a lot of the responsibility for the last two ones myself, since when we started 4D over 10 years back, I was very inexperienced. I went from never even having played a Mud to being Head Builder in less than a year, and as a result I did many mistakes - we all did.
Some bugs were a bit funny, like the Sicilian's 'secret weapon', others, like players deliberately crashing the mud to duplicate things or to abuse features like farming, gardening and lumberjacking, were just plain irritating. Over some periods there was also extensive blabbing about quests, which lead to players having items that they never would have been able to get on their own.
Now we have patched most of the glitches, fixed the bad scripts and removed the features that enabled people to pharm unlimited tokens. New bugs will appear, they always do with new code and new zones, but we know a lot more about how to avoid them nowadays.
6. Nothing will be removed, just put on hold.
We wouldn't delete any player houses, they would still be connected to the world, although they wouldn't be crashproof and everyone would be able to enter them, until you pay the fee for them again. (When it comes to bragging value, that would rather be enhanced than the opposite, when everyone can view your mansion).
Same thing with perzes, the items would still be there, waiting to be rebought, unless of course you'd prefer making new ones.
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In summary; all things considered, I've gone from being totally against an equipment wipe to being in favour of it. I understand how traumatic it would be for some players, but it would solve so many problems in one strike. And we'd never get a better chance of doing it, than in connection with a major code change.
This is a once-in-a-lifetime chance.
We are also lucky enough to have a coder, who has both the ability, the time and the will to put down all the effort needed for a major change.
Let's not waste that opportunity!
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Let's just do this. Have you seen how many times this thread has been read? Pretty awesome.
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See? Now THAT is a post Molly.
And with that, you have my official "Yay" on this matter.
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Very proficient use of bold, Molly. Sways even the faintest of heart.
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so umm is there going to be a pwipe? i would support it it would make the game run better and bring every one down on an even level (unlike last time) and is every one going to start off in seekers or wha??? its cool about the houses and it will drop inflation for about 3 months or so intill all the oldies get back all there junk they like to store.... i wont name names...cough cough....but anyways you know way to many questions even thought it will be a good thing
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The difference this time is, we will design it so that there are things you really have to spend your coins/tokens on when you level, so inflation can be staved off for much longer than that.
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I know I’ve been away, but sometimes RL does things to you that changes your priorities. I never wanted to stop playing, but there you go. It had nothing to do with this place has got boring etc.
Also I get the feeling that this has all been decided anyway, but I wanted to post my views, and they are my views. I don’t assume that other people think the same way as my, unlike some others.
I will say, that after speaking to Anubis, that with the changes coming there is actually no way a pwipe can be averted. Not that I am happy about it, just beginning to accept it. But there are still implications to a pwipe that I have yet to see answered, and this is what is keeping me from answering the question would I play again? I also see this as a different question to would I recreate? Too explain, the answer to would I recreate? Is more than likely, yes, as I have friends here that I do not want to lose contact with, and I mean RP players not just in RL. Hack & Slashers might not get this point, but RP’ers will. Will I play again? Much harder to answer, very undecided on this. Do I really want to take months, if not years the way I level :P to get to a point that I can start exploring the zones that I have not completed? Before you say anything Virisin, I can’t/don’t want to level like you do. I also do not have the knowledge of the game that you have, so it would take me a hell of a lot longer to be at the level I could explore like I am now doing in the old code. So at the present time, I would more than likely recreate and sit at recall, my choice.
Actually I am going to stop here, I have got to page 8 and the discussion is turning in to a Hack and Slashers will love this change and well I am an RP’er who is not going to love this change, but is resigned to the fact it will and yes has to happen.
Rp
The long investment in building the character’s background and their identity in 4D, here Diandra is the only person so far to come up with a part solution, but I don’t think I have seen anyone comment on this, perhaps us RP’ers are the minority;
Diandra: Do not delete the characters, just put them all at level 1 again, that leaves the history of the character intact. And yes, the difference between deleting/recreating them and setting them back at 1 is minimum, it's the thought behind it (I'm sure there's at least a few people in 4d who will understand what I mean with this). People can continue where they left off socialwise, as those who just want the h&s can continue their way too.
Are we going to keep our RP flags?
Clans
How long will it take the leader to purchase the clanhalls back?
Will the RP players that currently belong to a clan and hence it is part of their “history” be allowed to join as soon as they create?
Time invested
No need to comment on this, we have all invested considerable time in our own way, from playing to coding and building.
Economy
What’s stopping players creating alts and donating to their mains? Seen that a lot in the past, no wonder I am in the token poor character, as the only alt I have is a level 1 char to help newbs in mudschool.
Alts
Virisin’s point about the new system will reduce alts? With limited pracs and having to make a choice of which skills will lead to alts. What do you do if you cocked up your choices, pwipe the char again? What if you want a gypsy to feed your mage, or located objects? Exactly the same as it is now.
To back that up Diandra already has hinted as this;
If, after the skilltree-change, people would get practices according to their current level/tier and would just randomly pick a skilltree, they might make a wrong decision which can not be undone
Perzes
Can’t comment as I’ve never had a perze.
Other comments
Xeriruth: Oh, I forgot to say I'd play again, because I"d have something new to do!
Well yes if you class the new combat+skill tree, but a strong no as you will have to do all the “old” quests again
Virisin: Because all you (Jasson) do currently is sit at recall. It's all anyone does
really because no one needs to do anything anymore. GM made you all lazy.
No, its because some people have completed the quests and are where they want to be, this WILL happen again, you are just restarting the cycle. Some of use have got to GM to ENABLE us to explorer the harder zones, and in my case that isn’t helping me a lot lol.
Virisin: The best thing about this game is racing to do things, to be the first or the best at something, or the fastest.
That is in your opinion, its YOUR game play. Not mine. I couldn’t give a toss who got what first, who is the all powerful PK. I like to mix with other players and rp a bit, explorer a bit and yes now and again level a bit. But I get no cheap thrill of being the first to do anything.
Virsin: Either way GM is going to be removed so that's not really an arguing point. It's one of the crappiest most unbalancing and detrimental parts of our current system.
I do like your sweeping comments and that fact you should be taken as the truth and so no need to discuss the point. Yes its unbalanced, but that’s was because a player spent a long time to get there get this reward. It enabled players to more or less not have to keep making alts for different classes. I agree it was too far, but it could have been changed. But it has gone, no point discussing!
Horus: Its like joining WoW and someone gave you a spare high ranking character with uber eq and you have never played WoW before
Sorry no, I wasn’t just given I high powered player, I made that player and I have played the game before. The difference is in the combat and the level system, not the world we play and enjoy. All we are doing is adapting to new system to work in the “old” world.
Horus: The end result of this is grinding out quests. So you have xp grinding and token grinding.
But arnt you forcing us to do this yet again? I mean, how else will I level, buy a house etc.?
Hayto: I've got a genious solution. Make a new port where all the new content goes, discontinue support on the old port, allow people to play both simultaneously
Now I actually like this idea, but the pitfalls are too numerous. Use your GM to explore a hard zone to enable your char in the main port to do the quest at a lower level. Use the old port to ID, locate item etc. etc. Unfortunately I think this option is not viable.
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Still in favor. ;)
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You may still be in favor of it, Xeri, but no reson to have a pwipe if there's no major code change.