4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Jason Orsini on November 17, 2009, 11:12:30 am
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Virisin Virisin where ever you are, i promise ill allways,
Shit on you're thoughts... ;D
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Virisin who?
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I'm not sure either Asmo....
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Learn how to spell 'your' please... 'You're' means you are and dosn't quite fit. That is all.
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like it matters ;D
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It matters. That is all.
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None of them are good. He wants to change the way things are done for no reason.
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You obviously havn't read a single thread here, Darvus.. But that's cool.
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So are you saying I want things done for no reason either Darvus? Or Molly as well?
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You obviously havn't read a single thread here, Darvus.. But that's cool.
I've read quite a few of your more recent ideas, and you never give any sort of support for why things should be changed. Like the damage roll on weapons. There's no reason to change it if it works fine right now.
So are you saying I want things done for no reason either Darvus? Or Molly as well?
Did I say that? I don't believe I did.
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Darvus, I think what Horus was trying to point out is that it isn't that there is NO reason that some people want things to be changed, but maybe that it's a reason that you're not seeing. Horus wants things changed, Molly wants things changed, heck, even *I* want things changed (the obvious one here is that Viri wants things changed). The thing is, everything ISN'T working fine and that's what the problem is and what we want to change. I'm not a coder so I've not looked at the code, but from talking to the coders it's obviously a bunch of hacked together stuff that looks like a cat threw up - not a pretty picture. The way to really get things working right is to start from scratch - coding wise first. Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse. That's not where we want to be. We want to have clean code and if we're going to have that, why not put in new things that work with how 4D was meant to work? Instead of having all skills/spells be basically the same (kid you not, Mord did say something to me once about coming up with new names and basically basing it off something else - so that's no surprise that all our skill/spells are virtually identical) why not have some depth to them? Why not make people choose how they want their character to be - instead of everyone basically getting all skill/spells that they can handle/find at their level. Make players become their character and not become something "just because they have said skill/spell" even though that wouldn't be character driven.
Don't get me wrong, I do love 4D, but there have always been things I hated about it.
Let me liken what's going on here (and perhaps this should go more under the pwipe thing than here, but here I am so here it is) with what happen years ago with a company called Wizards of the Coast. That company had a little game called Dungeons and Dragons (usually referred to as D&D). For years, they'd put out items to make the game... better.. more interesting for players. They went from "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" to "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" to "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons second edition" where they happily stayed for some time. People like me that got into D&D when they were kids (yes, I am that old) had to work through the system. AD&D could work with second edition - not much change there. But there was one item of D&D that I could not get a handle on without writing out a chart - THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0). Basically, what number do I need to roll on my 20 sided die to hit the f'ing creature in front of me? SEriously, every game, I wrote out that chart. I started to detest playing BECAUSE of THAC0, but I loved the game - I loved the imagery - I loved the friendships I gained through the game.
What does this have to do with 4D? A few years back, Wizards of the Coast did something outrageous. They revamped the whole system. They dared to move away from AD&D and come out with something called Dungeons and Dragons 3.0. The system was completely different and... quite frankly... better. The same conversations we're having here with a possible pwipe of 4D has already occured on the forums about the change between AD&D and D&D 3.0 - before 3.0 was even released -before anyone even saw it to give it a chance. It was a change - a major change - and people inherently do not like change. Thac0 worked.. why change it? Because the 3.0 AC system is better. If you're not wearing any clothes (and aren't a mob that has some natural ac), I know that I have to hit AC10 (not0, not -10) which means, unless I have bonuses because of Strength (melee) or Dex (ranged) I have to roll a 10 on a d20. I don't have to figure out the negatives to get a positive any more.
D&D 3.0 has a system quite a bit like the one explained to me by Anubis and Toch. But, from what I've heard from most people - it's not the SYSTEM that's the problem - most like the thought of the tree skills once it gets explained to them - it's the thought of a pwipe. It's the thought of losing everything you've worked for. Guess what - I lost everything when Wizards of the Coast went from AD&D to D&D 3.0, but you know what? With the new system, it was worth it. It helped me figure out HOW I wanted my characters to be. It helped me actually RUN games. It helped me become better at playing because I understood the mechanics of it. It made me WANT to build worlds - areas - themes. It made me able to do what I do today.
This may seem like a rambling point on not much that has to do with Viri's posts, or the posts on pwipe, or the posts on the new skill tree system, but truthfully, it's a post on all of it. I do not WANT a pwipe, but I do think it would be better for all if we had one. yes, everyone has spent time on a game that they will lose - yes, I know it hurts. I could point out that even if GM's got something and the rest got nothing, it would still hurt people like me that never made it to GM - because you're saying that my 5+ years of playing was lesss important than yours (admittedly I have an IMM and rarely log in my mort any more, but what of the others like me that finally decided GM wasn't worth the headache of playing a class you didn't want to play? - ie: I hate casters and if I had every remorted again, I was going to go back to the class I really liked - the one I enjoyed playing and that was Hunter).
I know I'll get shot for this post, but so be it. Viri, Tochy, Jason, whoever feels like it, rip it to shreds. The information stands as it is. D&D got better when they revamped, 4D shall too.
Kvetch
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I understand what you're saying. I play 3.5 myself. So, maybe Virisin should explan why he thinks they should change instead of just saying they do.
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Yep, Darvus, 3.5 was one step better than 3.0. Though not much difference - it was a pain to pay the 30+ dollars for a book that you'd just bought a year earlier for the little tweaks they did. Unlike 4.0 which is basically just a miniature game - thus I've no interest going to it.
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I understand what you're saying. I play 3.5 myself. So, maybe Virisin should explan why he thinks they should change instead of just saying they do.
Pick a random page (1-8 or 9 now) on the pwipe topic in suggestions and ideas, and you'll probably find about 8 posts on the page from virisin... chances are at least one has something worthwhile on the topic!
(ok who am i kidding, probably not worthwhile at all, but im just sayin!)
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Which post have I not explained why I think we need to change? The most recent one called 'Equipment and Stats'? That's because I don't know if we need to change.. I gave 3 options and wanted people to discuss them so I can make up my mind.
Good post Kvetch.
Also very funny Asmodeus, but actually pretty true.. You should read the threads.
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Hey just a note for 3.0 DnD, you should convert your characters and items over from 2.0 to 3.0/5 without too much of a problem. All it took was a little effort, and knowing where to tone your suddenly uber character down without totally scrapping the whole thing and moving on to White Wolf like so many did.
However, making a leap form 2.0 to 4th is impossible..I tried and failed. 4.0 seems cool, and a lot simpler. The changes made a lot of sense once you read their "Why we did the things we did" book.
Anyway, good post Kvetch.
PS: THAC0 rocked :P
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Kvetch's post is basically a rehash of what Virisin has been trying to say all along, except she is more articulate, and hence the reason why she is a builder and Virisin isnt. Essentially, she has got it correct when she said we are converting the current 4d system into a proper full blown gaming system that involves a more complex and diverse set of combat.
Our aim is to make no two combats the same, even if you are killing the same mob. The skill trees has lots of side effects, as mentioned in the numerous posts in the other thread, and those benefits actually effect the economics of 4d. We have a great chance of fixing alot of inherent flaws in 4d with a pwipe, and if there was any other way, we would have chosen it.
Anything that costs gold, tokens, TPs should be wiped. Anything affecting the game should be wiped. RP gear can be reimbursed as long as it does meet these criteria. As I have said before, half assed measures in the past has led to the current situation today, and I do not want to repeat history. The problems with today's system is diverse, both of having crappy code that does not support the quality of the areas, and the economy. It does not make sense to have healers and potions out of reach of newbies, and yet they are basically useless for the experienced players (I am generalising here, I know you are using potions, but not to the extent that is a gold sink).
So if we had a pwipe without the myriad changes, then it becomes ineffectual. We are doing this not just because of the combat upgrade (skill/spell upgrade, class revamp, different type of prac system, etc), we are also targeting the problems with inflation, and designing a proper economy that will make 4d thrive. Hopefully, we might even end up having a player run economy!
So I am just adding to what Kvetch has said, her explanation is a perfect analogy of what we are trying to do - in fact, skill trees come from AD&D 3.0+.
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Kvetch's post is basically a rehash of what Virisin has been trying to say all along, except she is more articulate, and hence the reason why she is a builder and Virisin isnt.
>:( You just changed me from a yes voter to a no voter Horus! >:(
(I have actually built maybe 40%-60% of a zone)
:-*
I just read Kvetch's post again cause I liked it so much.
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*gasp* I got viri to read a long post TWICE because he liked it. Quick Call 911, I'm having a heart attack - or maybe it's just shock. Way too used to reading "nice post, kvetch but..." *rip rip, tear tear, shread shread*
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Kvetch's post is basically a rehash of what Virisin has been trying to say all along, except she is more articulate, and hence the reason why she is a builder and Virisin isnt.
Well this made me laugh out loud for the first time in a while
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A couple of things to note for posting:
Please do not flame. I know some people are grammar freaks. I am not. So please don't start snipping at each other over that.
And please stay on topic. The topic is about Virisin's bad ideas and not an side topic on d&d 3.0 vs d&d 3.5 vs d&d 4.0
Prometheus
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If it weren't for Kvetch's post this topic would have been destroyed I imagine.. Do you really want us to have proper discussion about whether I should stop posting bad idea? :'(
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Sorry, until the Award Points post, I'd not seen a "bad" idea from Viri for a while, so I got confused and had to create that long post about D&D and all. As I said, it was only posted here because this is where I was when I thought of it. AT my age I gotta go with posting where I am, otherwise all the little thoughts run out and away before I can find my way to the correct board. Speaking of...
*Kvetch goes chasing after a random thought that has escaped from her horde*