4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Loria on September 07, 2011, 11:51:36 am
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Currently, there is no real incentive to continue leveling past the 50th remort. Xeriuth, Once, and I were discussing some possible incentives to encourage players to keep leveling past their 50th one. There were many ideas discussed between the two of them. The only one I can remember is: +1 hp ever other remort.
It would be great to see our oldbies get some reward for their hard work and keep the game interesting for them. What are some other ideas you can think of that would be great as an incentive to continue remorting past the 50th one?
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Incentive = Beat Jason, Result for you = Impossible.
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There are already way too many incentives to do nothing but trigger-level.. If we start making uber-oldbies get more incentives than they already get then we'll have to start making new mobs tough enough to compete with them, and then give them rewards for being able to beat them, and that's pretty much exactly what Sonya already did a few years ago and it was as bad then as it is now.
The difference in strength between a 1 remort and a 30 remort is already unbelievably great.
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What if the rewards were on certain remorts such as 100th, 150th, 200, 500, etc? Such as (if your ideas go through on the artifacts revamping project) a person who has remorted 100 times is allow one more artifact slot aside from the normal 3 slots allowed. 500th remorts are allowed yet one more slot... etc.
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*rofl* I think Jason is the only one with 100 remorts mostly because remorts are so difficult to get the higher up you are.
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Did you seriously just talk about getting 500 remorts?
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yeah why not? A lot of you guys have been around for about a decade. Surprised at how lazy all of you are that no one has hit more than 100.
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because more than 50 = wow, hello too much useless time online
edit: more than 30 in my case
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adding incentives for +100 remorts is catering to like 1% of the playerbase if that. let's think about adding depth for the other 99%
i don't mean to be negative but it's a serious criticism. drinking aside.
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I'm not going to mention any names, but someone said something like this online yesterday about this topic...
If you're getting anywhere close to 500 remorts, its not 4D that needs incentives, its real life.
I've been around 10+ years, and for you to call us lazy for not getting over 100 is actually a little sad...
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Take it as a sign of respect being called lazy. Better than being called Ancient :) *winks*
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Really though, for those that do remort past 50, there should be some minimal bonus, like a small damage increase per level as there is up to 50, or small static health increase, instead of all effort after 50 being pointless..
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I'm thinking that Xeri's right.. there should be *something* for getting so many remorts. Maybe something and 50 and then something at every 25 levels afterwards. I'd say something D&D ish about putting a perm point in a stat, but when you all have all your stats maxed out because of eq, why bother... So, maybe go with an increase in speed or damage or whatever it is you guys like. If you had a choice to be able to put points into something like that, what would you choose? And how many points should be given (be reasonable).
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As long as it's a strength bonus I think it's a bad idea for things like the Champion code coming in.
It's already nigh on impossible for someone that isn't GM to beat someone that's GM. Do we really want to make it so for someone to be champion not only do they need 32 remorts, but they also need to keep going in order to catch Jason on 100 remorts?
A major problem 4d faces is that of strength disparity, because of our remort system there is always a significant difference in player strengths. Even two players with exactly the same equipment and class, if one of them is tier 1 level 50 and the other is tier 4 level 50, they will be totally different strengths. If on the other hand one of them is tier 4 level 50 with 5 remorts, and the other is tier 4 level 50 with 35 remorts, they will again be totally different strengths.
It is because of this that we find it very difficult to create a functioning grouping system, it is impossible to set up a system based on involvement because of the vastly different involvement players can have based only on where abouts they are in their remort line. If everyone is heading towards GM, everyone will go through phases of being in the lower tiers and not providing the same amount of help as someone in the higher tiers.
By creating extra incentives to continuously level and remort all we are doing is stretching 4d out, so the gap between someone of 100 remorts with GM and a newbie of only 1 remort just grows and grows. If we keep letting people get stronger and stronger then we have to keep finding things for them to be able to do. Voltron and Gojira become easier, and there needs to be stronger mobs out there. Those mobs need to have some incentive for them to be worth killing.
The major strength disparity in 4d is one of the factors that I find most displeasing, and I imagine is what scares a lot of newbies away. I would much prefer a simple 100 level system that potentially allowed for a remort at the end so that if you go through the 100 levels again you have access to features like cybernatics and player augmentations. Who knows, but I think we should be working on balancing the mud and creating diversity in things OTHER than strength, rather than aiming for monotony in everything BUT strength.
It makes it unbelievably hard to balance a game in which every single player is so vastly different to everyone else strengthwise.
Before implementing any more incentives only to keep remorting and remorting I think we should look quite hard at what consequences it will have.
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buuu >:(
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and it is 101 mind you. >:(
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I think exponentially decreasing payoffs would be as far as we could go in that direction. So by the end if you want to invest 6months in earning 2 extra speed points or something that's fine, and it may even make a difference against that other insane player you're competing against, but for all intents and purposes the overall range isn't increasing anymore.
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Perhaps something that I've seen before is a type of rebirth or reincarnation system. When you do this, you go back to level 1, no remorts. and start fresh as a unique class/race with. Of course you can keep everything you earned your first playthrough, all quest flags, equipment, tokens, gold, subskills, cybernetics if they are in, etc. This will provide incentive to keep levelling, because you just have to start over to keep going. If you want to keep going for no other reason but to keep going, then that's on you. Except maybe, lets say a portion of the exp after 50 remorts could be conveyed over to after the rebirth. Not really time effective, but it does give something. With this of course, it could propose unique to races that players could propose or something else interesting to make it semi worthwhile, without the new perk being advantageous, just something, new, unique, and desired.
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After 50 remorts on one race, you could be 'reborn' into another race and start collecting races like you do with classes. Then maybe you could get the bonuses of each race on top of the bonuses for each class. I start as a spacewolf and complete 50 remorts. Then I am reborn as an elf. I could keep whatever dam bonus perk a spacewolf gets, but then also have the stats of an elf as i am that class. Say i complete another 50 remorts and turn into a gringo. Then I get the perks of spacewolf and elf, but now i also have gringo stats.
I guess in doing this, you'd be reset to tier 1 level 1 with 0 remorts each rebirth, and would essentially have to reach GM and get to 50 remorts. This way though, you're collecting race stats as opposed to just adding bonus points to already buffed stats, and you're starting over which helps level the playing field a little bit for newer characters. Although, being reborn, you should get to keep everything you earned up to this point.
Also, this would give us a chance to look at races and make them a bit more unique if need be.
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buuu >:(
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First we had remorts, then tiers, then GM, then.. Grand-GM? Race-Master? I won't lie, it feels like we're just stacking things up.
There IS a problem in that you get GM and then what? But that problem has always been there in one form or another. Some kind of reincarnation just seems like repeating the tactic we've used every time in the past without ever really solving the problem.
I think this line is key:
something else interesting to make it semi worthwhile, without the new perk being advantageous, just something, new, unique, and desired.
If we can work out what that thing is, that's worth building a system around. Some open-ended reason to keep going and developing your character without getting physically stronger in relation to anything else.
What's genuinely worth earning that doesn't make you any bigger?
Our coders are busy as fuck already, both here and elsewhere, as everyone knows. If we want to actually develop something like this it HAS to last.
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I think Virisin already summed things up very well in his reply #13 on page 1, so I won't repeat all of his arbuments here, just go back and read them
One of our main problems is, that the gap between new players and oldbies already is too big. It makes new players despair about ever catching up, and it also makes the game harder to balance.
And any additional 'remorting rewards' will just increase that gap.
We'll have to figure out something else, to keep oldbies interested enough to leave Recall.
Let's just all take a deep breath, take a step back and consider the subjects of Game Design and Balance, instead of constantly asking for new patches that, although they sound cool one by one, potentially might cause more problems than they solve.
Let's start out by asking ourself the following questions:
1. What kind of the game do we have presently?
2. What are the things that we specifically like and specifically dislike with our current game?
3. What kind of game is it that we want?
4. How do we get from step 1 to step 3 without disrupting any of the things that we like in the process?
So far I haven't seen anyone draw up the goals and frames for the design we should aim for. And by design I mean the total package, because everything hangs together - balance, races, classes, equipment, skills and spells, fight code, zones, quests, trading, code features...
And because everything is so convoluted, every change we do affects a lot of other things - usually a lot more than was expected from the start.
Understand me right;
- I'm not against changes, as long as they are not so totally fundamental that we lose our 12 year old identity.
- I think it's wonderful that we actually for the first time in 4D history have more than one competent coder.
- I think that changes usually are positive, because development in a mud is one of the things that keeps the player interest up.
- I think many of the ideas that are being tossed around or already implemented are promising.
I just want someone to present the full picture of what we are aiming for, before we start running in one direction or another.
Once we have defined the long term goals that we are striving for, all changes - even the small ones - should work together towards those goals.
And that means both Coders, Builders and Players.
And maybe the subject of Game Design is worth its own thread?