4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Once's Board => Topic started by: Once on September 17, 2011, 10:01:30 pm
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Here are some of my thoughts. Post your own and vote. Ideas we deem as good will be added as additional poll options. Note: You can change your vote, and you have two votes as I'm guessing there's a lot of fencesitting here. Please vote on what you feel will best make the game engaging and give long term replay value/long term content.
Thanks,
Once
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Get rid of it! Woo, I have posted many times on why it ruins the game, so I'll only go into it again here if someone really doesn't understand.
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First I voted 8 REMORTS, then I wondered how well this would work in practice and changed to straight GET RID OF IT, then Viri answered my question in his new topic by positing that 2x tier 4 would let you learn both specialist trees a class might have. So I voted GET RID OF IT AND 8 REMORTS! :o
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A have to agree, get rid of GM and allow players to keep skills from their last 8 remorts.
It would be the basis for a more strategic game.
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I voted for the last 8 remorts idea. (Mainly because it was my idea) However one thing that I think would need to happen in conjunction with this is the experience needed per remort no long increasing. Have it just be set. Someone with T4 at 50 remorts shouldn't need anymore than someone T4 at 80. Unless of course there is some sort of minimal benefit of remorting more. I can only imagine that the buffer right now only saves your last 3 remorts with your current. So your four prior are gone. This means everyone will have to remort at least 4 more times to get their 8 remort pattern, but they like their current class, so they have to remort 4 moer times to get their current class. At higher remorts like Jason and I, that's rough needing 8 remorts. Perhaps a way around this is give everyone with 8 remorts or more, or every GM the ability to pick their pattern, since they are losing GM, and or no longer can work towards GM.
Also since of course this is all about remorts. Once mentioned before at recall when we were all speaking about remort incentives that we could have a remort point allocation system. Where each remort you get you can put the point(s) into natural hp gain per level, magic or melee damage increase (direct or percent), defense, evasion, speed, etc. The idea is to have many many things that someone can specialize their points in, to be more suited for their class. for instance a mage probably doesnt care much about hp anyways and wants to make their fireball uber, so they put all points into damage for just that, but a warrior might want more hp and damage, whereas thieves go with speed and damage. With all of these options and with no limit there is no set remort goal, and if remorts become easier to attain with no gradual increasing of exp, people can remort and level with their favorite class hybrid to keep getting more points. the bonuses will be small, so sometimes not extremely noticeable, like a 0.5% damage buff, 5 more hp a level. But with the hp varying in a range of about 30, it'll be hard to see that 5.
This remort point system would of course do away with the current bonuses given, such as increased hp gain as is per remort, and increased damage etc. Those bonuses will simply now have an option for the player to invest points into.
I think practice points as already being near pointless right now would be good to use instead of a new point system, just scale them appropriately since they seem a bit inflated. I think you get about 75 every remort. This will alllow people to also likewise invest in skills appropriately over the other areas to invest in.
These are all just general ideas. Discuss!
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@Once
Okay, maybe I'm just dense, but I need clarification on what I'm voting for... Is the fourth choice, "Make it save the last 8 remorts (aka 2 tier 4s)", changing GM to save the last 8 remorts, or doing away with GM and having everyone save the last 8 remorts?
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GM will be done away with persay, because you get your last 8 remorts worth. This could potentially make you more versatile then a GM because you wont get every T1 and 2 spell/skill just of the classes that you go into. GM's are one class T3 and 4 and all of them T1 and 2, this would allow you to be two classes at Tier 4 so to speak. At least have the skills/spells of both. Examples: T4priest primary T4hunter secondary. You'd have priest health and be good at spellpower etc. But you'd have all hunter skills/spells too, so you could grapple, behead (although it'd be pointless to since you ahve a focus), hyperactivity, etc. Switch the classes have hunter primary and priest secondary, the hunter now has the spell heal, ability to control weather, cast ice shield, etc. Of course heal wouldnt be as powerful as a priest, because they wouldnt be using a focus or have the charisma that a priest would have, but the spells are available to them. Or a hunter could pick thief as their secondary lineup and get both behead and encircle, which could make things interesting.
It's just a new way of opening skills/spells like GM does, but with a larger variety based on your remorting path.
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Remember there will still be class masteries even if this does go ahead. Removing them would be a whole nother story, so there would still be strong incentive to master every class.
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this means EVERYONE would,
have priest involved in their 8 remorts..
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No it doesn't at all.
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offcourse not.....
buuu >:(
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These are all bandaid solutions to a problem that is too big. I think its a waste of time discussing certain aspects of what is broken with 4D when almost everything is broken with 4D. Instead, we should be discussing what the new system should be, and working towards implementing the new system, which will resolve a majority of the problems.
For example, you are discussing about getting rid of GM, getting rid of race attributes, changing all sorts of things by providing solutions to individual problems without a bigger picture in mind. This is absolutely not the best way to move forward and no, it does not provide a clean stop-gap solution either. You are worrying about trying to keep the last 8 remorts, when a skill tree system will eliminate the need for a remorting system altogether.
And since Once has been working quite hard on this, why dont we talk about getting the skill tree system in place. We have had numerous discussions about this system, and we should be concentrating on getting the right balance for the skill trees and how it affects mobs vs players, and players vs players. We are all wasting time getting all huffy and puffy on a stop gap solution that is not effective - and my analogy of using timers and max_loads is a perfect example, we are repeating history again with ineffective solutions.
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I think that's what Viri's thread is for.
We've been waiting how many years for a skill tree? Maybe doing it piece by piece isn't such a bad idea.
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I like the idea of huge sweeping changes to remorts, tiers and the whole system Horus, but we've talked about that for years and we've achieved nothing. Not even removing GM which is one of the major frustrations a lot of us have. My post in it's own thread details 4 patch solutions to individual problems that together pave the way for the whole system we talk about.
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I see the value in skill trees, but I really must admit I don't think they're a cure all. Along with several other steps they can lead us to a functional new game engine, but I think an iterative process is going to be the more likely way forward. Skill trees and skill ranks are great for re-organization but even then will need significant testing and revamping. I'm pretty doubtful you guys will be able to plan skill trees to work perfectly out of the box.
I think the better method will be to work on rapidly implementing the core concepts in a testable fashion, and then testing the hell out of them and refining. Most major changes tend to start with a ripple and are a succession of small actions built ontop of each other. Where I think this place has failed in the past is the staff have put an unrealistic goal upon themselves of trying to develop this via the "Waterfall Method" which is okay in certain client development contexts, but horribly boring for most fun software development. It's also generally a lesser quality product once all is said and done because Waterfall tends to often miss a lot of subtle details that just don't get accounted for in the planning phase.
That isn't to say there shouldn't be any planning, but waiting for some grand plan to get done that solves every single problem is probably not going to be the best use of everyone's time. It's likely not to lead to a better result, and I think we'll find ourselves taxed by trying to apply a really rigorous methodology to what is honestly a hobby likely meant for relaxing. I think we should roughly plan and think out potential consequences/incentives in the systems we're creating, but we should also release quickly and test how users are using the system. That's how I see the way forward, and happens to be how just about every open source project I've ever seen tends to get completed (for free by volunteer staff).
Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.
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I voted for the last 8 remorts idea. (Mainly because it was my idea) However one thing that I think would need to happen in conjunction with this is the experience needed per remort no long increasing. Have it just be set. Someone with T4 at 50 remorts shouldn't need anymore than someone T4 at 80. Unless of course there is some sort of minimal benefit of remorting more.
Good point. Currently, there is no benefit to remorting after 50, only drawbacks. Seems we should add one or get rid of the other.
How am I to get to my 500th remort if I have to level through 2875298743928743098740291384 xp per level? *sheesh* ::)
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So, everyone gets the skills of their last eight remorts, a bonus for new players and those that have chosen to not do the classes they consider hard to level. And the people that have worked for the bonus of GM receive a net loss?
How does one get to place their second vote nine voters, twelve votes? The voting option doesn't seem to be available to me after I cast one vote.
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Mastering all the classes already gives you inherent bonuses with the Masteries. GM just ruins any potential specialization and benefit we can add to classes. Trust me, you will not experience net loss.
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I always feel so much reassurance when someone, trying to sell me something, tells me to trust them. ;D
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Mastering a class already gives you these bonuses:
Priest -20% magic damage taken
Thief +100 attackpoints
Warrior +1 to damage multiplier
Mage +20% magic damage done
Hunter +100 defencepoints
Ranger -20% melee damage taken
Gypsy +20% melee damage done
Esper +25% magic damage done
which are pretty obviously powerful just on their own.
Someone with 20 remorts say, does indeed potentially benefit under this, in that they will notice more skills/spells available to them. They still do not have all the masteries a GM currently would have. The people that have worked for the bonus of GM still have all the masteries they achieved, and they also will find that instead of having all of the tier 2 skills and spells, they will have up to the tier 4 skills and spells of their last class as well.
Having the skills and spells of another tier 4 class is arguably better than having all the tier 2 skills and spells, but the main benefit is that it allows us more variety and dynamics within the classes than just: Hi, I'm an everythingclass.
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Something we might want to consider this is from Fallout series is to "tag" 2 classes and you get the benefits of those classes with the various masteries. It is still the same idea as the 8 remorts but you would get special bonuses for your tagged classes. Not sure if it fits in this discussion. Or maybe we could have special abilities which can be tagged from the classes.
For example:
1) If you tagged cleric you can have for example a bonus to healing spells or your buffing spells last longer (Remember this is off top of my head so it might not make sense right now)
2) If you tagged warrior you can have a bonus to your combat skills or you can have a bonus to your AC which makes you more of a defensive tank like character. Or you could choose more damage and be a damage dealing tank.
Prometheus.
I'm going avoid the trap of saying weather or not we should get rid of GM.
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Sort of like class mastery now, but more advanced? What would be a couple class examples? Let's flesh through warrior, gypsy, and priest so we can get a grasp on what this involves.
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I dont like the idea at all of having all tier 4 spells/skills for the last 2 classes you played. Everyone is going to have priest.
I like Proms idea.
My opinion is that we take all possible class combinations and give each one special masteries and special skills/spells
Example
A. Priest-Esper Bonus to evil spell damage because esper is your secondary. Then give them new skills/spells that are maybe evil align.
B.Priest-Esper Bonus to healing, then add in a different set of spells/skills.
C. Warrior-Thief Bonus to speed, etc.
My brain cant think of spells/skills atm but you get the general gist of where I was headed anyways.
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I understand about class mastery but what I'm saying is a bonus and maybe negative. For example in Fallout you have a perk that makes you move faster (more action points) but you carry less weight (-50 pounds carry weight) Another example is quick learner which gives you move skills points a level but you only get perks every 4 levels instead of every 3 levels. So you get a plus but you also have a minus as well. Sorry I didn't explain myself more clearer.
You would still have class mastery but you could focus your class more. Using my example for the priest:
+ to healing spells and less mana to cast healing spells
- more mana to cast other spells outside of healing and longer delay to re-cast.
And for the other example of going the buffing route:
+ less mana to cast buffs and longer duration of buffing spells
- More mana to cast healing spells and longer delay (Can only cast any healing spell once every 30 to 60 seconds compared to healing anytime in combat)
Hopefully this will give everyone some ideas for tag ie perks. (Sorry I called them tag skills but perks is a better name or we can call them whatever)
Prometheus
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Bane, we have eight classes. That means something like 29 possible combinations if you're only talking about double classing and exponentially more if you want to think about triple or quadruple classing. That means that coming up with "one special mastery and special skill/spell" for each class combo and ensuring that each one is unique and balanced enough to make each class combo worthy in its own right and not just a waste of time and effort, that's quite a task.
Prometheus, I can see a perk system being great if all skills/spells were available to every class and then put a lot of time into constructing perk trees for each class that make the different types of skill/spell more or less valuable to them, but I don't think that will happen. I think stacking more perks on things at this stage would be a waste of time when the real problem lies with the eight classes and their skills/spells.
Classes are too similar, GM doesn't help. The easiest way to make classes unique is to place it somewhere on a scale of aggressive -> defensive and adjust their skills/spells accordingly, then balance it. Then get rid of GM.
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Sorry Prom I shouldnt of used the word Masteries. Perk would of been better word of chose. But I was agreeing with you.
I played a mmorpg that did a dual class system and it was really interesting. It was a ripoff of WoW called Runes of Magic. Secondary class didnt just only give them new/spell skills but it did other things such as lower delays on spells/ or increased your multi slightly for a certain spell. Each dual class had different things done but also each class them self gave a perk that was across the table. Like Rogue-Warden you had different spells/skills then say A Mage-Warden. But both would get 2 handed axe ability because they chose warden as a class.
You also had to level each class separately. It just made it cool because you could swap your classes say from Rogue-druid to Druid rouge and play a completely different style of game play.
I know its just a fairy tale dream, but any direction we go is alot of work. Im just throwing out ideas, someone may see something they like from an idea and use it.
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I think it would be good to consider exactly why people want to level.
My reasons for levelling were: No emphasis on PK - and GM makes it easy to explore the gameworld. Need to bear in mind that 4D is more focused on Questing. In that case, keeping the skills for the last 8 remorts without any other changes would lead to certain combinations being chosen over the rest. I'd say Priest and Thief, only because of buffs, "pick", decent speed and damage.