4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Jaros on April 06, 2012, 11:53:19 pm
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I'm going to keep raising this because it really is not a difficult fix.
The fighting bonuses/attributes that individual races get are:
a) Horribly imbalanced.
A dwarf gets +40 defence, +10 attack and -10% melee damage. The attack and defense do not even come close to balancing the negative melee damage.
b) Horribly restrictive.
An elf gets -10% melee damage, +10% magic damage, -40 defense and +15 attack (and 50 speed more than other races). In this case the +magic/-melee do balance each other, but all that achieves is forcing elves to stereotype themselves as casters. Someone who chooses elf and wants to play melee classes (read: HAS to if they want GM) is severely disadvantaged.
I have been trying to think of a wonderful way races can be made unique and wonderful without affecting peoples' fighting ability but alas I just can't do it. Graham suggested giving each race a crafting ability, which would be great if at some point in the future we get a crafting system. Until then there is simply no reason for these 'bonuses/attributes' to exist.
Therefore I again suggest removing them, leaving all races with +100 speed and ~3 unique wear_locs and nothing else. No +/- damage, no attack bonus, no extra defense. All players should start on an even footing.
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If you are going to remove it i would like to see us be given a choice Kinda like how we use to be able to pick bonuses upon character creation.
Either we can be neutral or take +%10 melee and - 10% magic or +10% magic and -10% melee
I wouldn't worry much about the +attack and defense I dont think it does all that much.
Just a thought.
And I wouldnt say its a severely disadvantaged either with the way it is now, but it does sterotype each race to a certain class.
Id rather see us be given the option than remove it.
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if people are given the option then every elf would go neutral and every spacewolf / centaur would keep the bonuses?
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A one time choice between a melee or magic bonus? Why?
If you want a damage bonus then come up with a system that is actually interesting that allows you to earn it. Then make your case in another thread.
This thread isn't really about coming up with alternatives. It's about removing a useless unbalanced system.
And I wouldnt say its a severely disadvantaged either with the way it is now, but it does sterotype each race to a certain class.
As a melee spacewolf you do +15% damage relative to baseline. As a melee elf I do -10% damage relative to baseline. You do the math and tell me how we stack up against each other.
I feel for the newbies who have no idea how game changing their third choice at creation could turn out to be.
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The honestly worst part about the race natural bonus system is that it was brought into 4D. We don't have a set class/remort system where you choose your path and stick with it for nearly forever. Instead, we are constantly changing, and remorting (true 4d style) endlessly.
I'm fine with just removing them entirely, and keeping the unique wear_loc we have for each race.
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A one time choice between a melee or magic bonus? Why?
Why not? We use to have a system sort of like this, and it was taken away. But theres plenty of people around that still have the benefits of those bonus stats.
Plenty of games have special bonuses on character creation. Why does everyone have to be the same copy of everyone else.
If you want a damage bonus then come up with a system that is actually interesting that allows you to earn it. Then make your case in another thread.
why? Why make it something everyone can get. Once again its just making everyone be the exact same copy of everyone else on the mud.
This thread isn't really about coming up with alternatives. It's about removing a useless unbalanced system.
Oh so people can only post if they totally agree with you? Not just partially agree, and point out where they dont agree at?
As a melee spacewolf you do +15% damage relative to baseline. As a melee elf I do -10% damage relative to baseline. You do the math and tell me how we stack up against each other.
Its not a huge disadvantage at all, You act like getting through melee cause of this is unbearable. With my gear I might do 1k-1.5k more damage per encircle over an elf with the same gear. For people who dont have the best gear in this game they would only notice 100-500 more damage if they was a spacewolf over an elf.
I feel for the newbies who have no idea how game changing their third choice at creation could turn out to be.
Its no different than them choosing which race to play now. Our character creation is quite easy compared to other muds. and thirdly that choice is not going to be a complete game changer.
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Ehhhhhh.
I wasn't arguing with your idea. I dismissed your idea because it distracts from the point of the thread, which is to remove the ridiculous race imbalances.
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Ill post to clear this up, I agree with removing of the racial bonuses.
My other point should be started on its own thread.
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Also, need to get rid of !race flags on items. Friggin stupid, and also creates an imbalance up until someone finally adds a new zone and makes something new.
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So for months now I've been wanting to create new characters to play but these restrictive race imbalances suck all of the joy out of it. Fortunately that seems an easy fix that no one is opposed to!!! :o
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SPACEWOLF: melee damage = damage*1.15
magic damage = damage*0.8
DWARF: melee damage = damage*0.9
magic damage = damage*0.9
ELF melee damage = damage*0.9
magic damage = damage*1.1
MARTIAN magic damage = damage*1.05
melee damage = damage*1.05
CENTAUR melee damage = damage*1.10
magic damage = damage*1.10
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I think removing the race_dam_mod function would be easy.
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Some races don't even get bonuses and some are randomly both +ve whereas some are both -ve.
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The races that don't get bonuses are probably the ones that are considerded "base races" that everything else is based off. The problem with this is, of course, why play something that doesn't have bonuses when you can play something that does? D and D changed this in their 3. System by giving the bace races a different type of bonus. While others may have infravision, darkvision, dex bonus, whatever, the base race (human) learns things faster. So there is still a reason to play that base race now. How this could be adapted to 4D, I don't know. I was just pointing out something - I think.
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Applying damage bonuses/compromises at creation is the worst time to do it. If we remove race_dam_mod now we can concentrate on developing elemental and weapon proficiencies that improve through use and eventually accomplish a more balanced version of what these were originally meant to be. Prom, Once, Thotter? One of you must be capable of removing them..
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DWARF: melee damage = damage*0.9
magic damage = damage*0.9
No wonder there are no dwarves around.
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The races that don't get bonuses are probably the ones that are considerded "base races" that everything else is based off. The problem with this is, of course, why play something that doesn't have bonuses when you can play something that does? D and D changed this in their 3. System by giving the bace races a different type of bonus. While others may have infravision, darkvision, dex bonus, whatever, the base race (human) learns things faster. So there is still a reason to play that base race now. How this could be adapted to 4D, I don't know. I was just pointing out something - I think.
Yeh, this is already the case kinda.. It just isn't balanced.
- Centaurs get innate mount.
- Martians get innate infravision
Dwarves get shitty melee and magic damage lol.
Far as I can see, the function is only called once so the only change that needs making is:
damage *= race_dam_mod ( GET_RACE ( ch ), IS_SPELL_ATK ( w_type ) || IS_SPELL_CAST ( w_type ) );
damage += ( ( float ) damage * ( ( float ) ( remorts * 0.005 ) ) );
Removing that one line.
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Also if base damage is 1 and it can fluctuate between 0.9 - 1.1 depending on what race you are, and then you have a remort bonus on top.. (Keep in mind this output damage is a multiplier).
Dwarf with 0 remorts = 0.9+(0.9*0*0.005) = 0.9 damage.
Dwarf with 10 remorts = 0.9+(0.9*10*0.005) = 0.945 damage.
Dwarf with 32 remorts = 0.9+(0.9*32*0.005) = 1.044 damage.
Dwarf with 100 remorts = 0.9+(0.9*100*0.005) = 1.35 damage.
Centaur with 0 remorts = 1.1+(1.1*0*0.005) = 1.1 damage.
Centaur with 10 remorts = 1.1+(1.1*10*0.005) = 1.155 damage.
Centaur with 32 remorts = 1.1+(1.1*32*0.005) = 1.276 damage.
Centaur with 100 remorts = 1.1 + (1.1*200*0.005) = 2.2 damage.
The difference between a newbie Dwarf and a newbie Centaur is 1.1-0.9 damage. This is reasonably significant.. If they were both doing 1000 damage base then this means the Dwarf is doing 900 damage and the Centaur is doing 1100 damage, add to this some kind of speed bonus and assume that the innate mount means the Centaur is doing at least 0.5 times more hits per second (this may be an underestimate I'm not sure), after 10 seconds the Dwarf is doing 9000 damage and the Centaur is doing 16500.
Those damages are high because they havn't been modded by anything else, and if their base damage was 100 rather than 1000 (more realistic for a newbie) that would be a difference of 1650-900 which is still 750 damage after 10 seconds. That is just 0 remort players experiencing a ridiculous difference based on nothing but their race. They have no idea...
What about an experienced Dwarf vs an experienced Centaur? 1.39 - 2.2 damage. A 1000 damage base is much more realistic for players with 100 remorts, so: 1390 - 2200 damage. If we again think about damage over time, this time we will assume they have the same speed because hopefully players with 100 remorts can get pretty similar speeds. Dwarf is doing 13900 damage / 10 seconds, Centaur is doing 22000 damage / 10 seconds. That's a difference of 8100 damage based on nothing more than what race you are...
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My only concern is if these bonuses are in the pfile itself. If they are then that might cause issues since messing with the pfile can give really nasty headaches but I will defer to the other coders who can say if I am barking up the wrong tree.
Prom
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Hadn't thought of that.. someone that isn't me or Prom should spend 5 minutes looking at this. :-*
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Dwarf: evasion_roll += 30;
Elf: evasion_roll -= 30;
Faun: evasion_roll += 0;
Centaur: evasion_roll += 40;
Martian evasion_roll -= 40;
Found another little tidbit on races.. Centaurs rock.
Dwarf: accuracy_roll += 10;
Elf: accuracy_roll += 15;
Faun: accuracy_roll += 25;
Centaur: accuracy_roll += 10;
Martian: accuracy_roll -= 5;
And again, Centaurs rock.
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Dwarf: evasion_roll += 30;
Elf: evasion_roll -= 30;
Faun: evasion_roll += 0;
Centaur: evasion_roll += 40;
Martian evasion_roll -= 40;
Found another little tidbit on races.. Centaurs rock.
Dwarf: accuracy_roll += 10;
Elf: accuracy_roll += 15;
Faun: accuracy_roll += 25;
Centaur: accuracy_roll += 10;
Martian: accuracy_roll -= 5;
And again, Centaurs rock.
Could someone please explain this a bit better for us non-coders?
* What do the different bonuses actually do in a combat situation?
* Does a + always mean that it makes the player better at something, while a - makes him worse?
* How many bonuses are there all in all, and which races get which bonuses?
It sounds a bit as if the race issue is just a result of bad design.
Why should one race have more positive bonuses than other races?
Wouldn't it be relatively easy for a coder to go through all races and set up an equation that balances negative bonuses against positive ones?
If that is impossible to do, then I agree that it would be better to remove all bonuses.
Still, I think it would be more interesting if the races actually were different in more ways than just the wear_locs, so that players could choose race after how it fitted their playing style. (For instance it would make sense if elves have bonuses that makes them better magicians but not so physically strong, while dwarves would have more brute force, but be slow and not so agile). It should be possible to find other logical reasons for positive/negative bonuses for all the races, based on their descriptions.
Why have races at all, if they are just cosmetical?
It would help the discussion if someone would post a list of all the bonuses that the code works with, not just excerpts from it.
We could also perhaps make it easier to change the race, if a new player finds out that the one he's got doesn't fit his personal playing style. I think the cost today is a gold token, perhaps we could lower it a bit?
Still, I definitely wouldn't like to see players changing races like they are changing socks. They always have the chance to create another char.
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It's hard to say exactly what the individual bonuses do on their own because there are so many different multipliers that affect things. + isn't always good, and - isn't always bad, but in this case: + accuracy and evasion roll = good for the player, and + damage multiplier = good for the player.
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On balancing things... It's a bit tricky.
In theory it would be easy to do it at least better than it is now: eg not give Centaurs the best deal every single time. But balancing the races entirely, when you include alterations to accuracy, evasion, damage, speed, innate abilities... It becomes a lot harder.
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Still, I think it would be more interesting if the races actually were different in more ways than just the wear_locs, so that players could choose race after how it fitted their playing style. (For instance it would make sense if elves have bonuses that makes them better magicians but not so physically strong, while dwarves would have more brute force, but be slow and not so agile). It should be possible to find other logical reasons for positive/negative bonuses for all the races, based on their descriptions.
Why have races at all, if they are just cosmetical?
One problem is that players are asked to choose their race before they know what their playing style is.
Another is that melee vs magic should not equal brute force vs magic, but it does. Looking at it from the outside, it should be possible to be good at melee by relying on speed and agility instead of just brute strength, but the combat code doesn't reflect that.
By trying to make races 'different' like this, you end up pigeonholing them into one class, at which point you might as well ask, what is the point of classes? Why not just replace casters with elves and martians if the name serves the same purpose?
What exactly is wrong with races being primarily cosmetic? It would solve a lot of problems. No one seems to care much about the bonuses. I would argue that the bonuses only exist as a derivation of the cosmetic difference. I think people would care a lot more if we removed ELF, CEN, IND from WHO than if we removed the bonuses. I think the cosmetic difference is far more important to the game than the combat difference is.
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- Martians get innate infravision
Maybe in theory, but not in practice. Calypso is Martian and does not have innate infravision. Does that need to be looked at?
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One problem is that players are asked to choose their race before they know what their playing style is.
Players that stick around long enough to figure that out usually end up making at least one other alt anyway.
No one seems to care much about the bonuses. I would argue that the bonuses only exist as a derivation of the cosmetic difference. I think people would care a lot more if we removed ELF, CEN, IND from WHO than if we removed the bonuses. I think the cosmetic difference is far more important to the game than the combat difference is.
Maybe this should be looked at. It makes sense that a player who chooses a caster-specific race, then chooses a caster-class SHOULD get a ton of magic-centered bonuses. D&D-themed games tend to make casters very weak in the beginning, but have their curve much higher and later in the game than melee. Likewise, with melee-specific race combined with melee-class SHOULD be able to do major physical damage, and tend to get stronger/better much quicker than casters, but peak a little sooner and not be able to max out quite as high in terms of ability to cause damage.
These are choices that players (newbies or not) should put some thought into. If someone chooses a caster race and a melee class due to ignorance, they will soon learn! And they have the ability to start over and try again with a different character. That was one of the most fun things I have discovered about having two mains- the differences between them!
Balance is important, yes. You don't want to have a mud where there are the haves and have nots, and nothing that can change the fact. Might as well delete the race/class that are the permanent have-nots. Having said that, I don't think it should be heterogeneous in all aspects. Diversity makes things interesting. I think it would be fun to figure out how to max out a caster in terms of class/race/gear- and match it up against a player who chose a different path. The game has a bit of this already, and it makes it very interesting. Really, the idea of making everything the same except the name of the race and magic vs physical attack sounds less interesting.
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I think you misunderstood me. My point was that if a race is just a way of choosing your pigeonhole then what's the point? That's what classes are for, and classes are much better at it. I think it is good that no one cares about the race bonuses because the race bonuses are a boring way of diversifying players.
A race difference is a difference you choose at creation and never change. That is boring. Different race bonuses do not make for "different paths." They do not make for "paths" at all. They do not develop at all, they are the same path. All race bonuses do is let some people travel that path faster than others.
I have never said there should be no diversity. I just think race is a stupid place to put it. Race should be cosmetic. Let players diversify as they play.
If we remove these ridiculous race imbalances we can concentrate on systems for actually earning diversity though upgrades and masteries instead of choosing it once and forgetting about it. That will give us a lot more diversity because it will make all our races worth playing, instead of only half of them.
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I don't know who Calypso is but if he's a Martian he should have innate infravision...
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If he doesn't... Then I guess when someone or another complained about race imbalanced once upon a time, a coder decided this meant martians having innate infra and removed it. Heh. Do Centaurs still get innate mount and mounted combat?
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Of all of the race imbalances that there are.. The innates were probably the least worrying. They gave a bit of diversity to a race without actually altering their overall potential. A martian with innate infravision is cool, as is a Centaur with mount and mounted combat, but they don't actually give the races anything another race cannot obtain themselves, or skew a fight one way or another.
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Like Loria said, it makes sense that if you choose a race that is geared in a certain direction, and then choose a class that is geared in the same direction, you should get a slightly better end result than if you choose different directions.
It's like in RL, you are born with certain talents. For instance you could be talented at athletics, ball games, music, mathematics, playing chess etc. If you are not born with those talents you can still LEARN to do those things and even train them up to a certain level.
But a kid who isn't born with a talent for handling balls, will never be as good at football or tennis as the one that has the talent.
The same things goes for the kid who wants to play the violin without being musical. He can learn the technique, what grips to use, and how to handle the bow, but the music he produces woll probably sound pretty awful.
Both of them would be a lot more successful if they chose a path that is consistant with their natural abilities.
I think it would be a lot more interesting if the races worked like that. Some races could have a particular ability for brute force, others at evasion or running fast, others at moving without being seen, yet others at different kinds of magic. The differences shouldn't be too big, but they should exist. And they should of course be balanced, so that if a race is good at one thing, it should be bad at something else.
And when they start training, i.e. choosing class, they should have a small +bonus at the thing they are good at and a negative bonus at their weakness.
Then it becomes a part of the challenge for a player who wants to advance as quickly as possible, or create the "maximum char", to choose a combo between race and class that works well together.
Personally I would prefer races to be different - but of course balanced.
If it is too hard for you to balance them, then by all means make them cosmetic.
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Still, if some classes have innates, each class should have one. And naturally they should be reasonably balanced.
They need not all be different, for instance it makes sense that both dwarves and martians could have innate infravision. Fauns and elves could both have innate hide/sneak. Or each race gets their unique ability. They could even get two each.
Innates that could be used are for example infravision, invisibility, hide/sneak, detect invis, sense_life, waterwalk, flying, locate object, and different shield spells (not the strongest ones like sanc).
It shouldn't be too hard to figure out explanations why one race would be better at something than others.
For instance:
faun - invis (or hide/sneak)
centaur - allow mount/mounted combat
elf - flying/waterwalk (or detect_invis)
dwarf - infravision (or extra mining skills)
gringo - one of the shield spells (or locate_object)
indian - hide/sneak (or sense_life)
martian - walk in space without spacesuit (or infra)
spacewolf - detect_invis (or sense_life)
As for the bonuses:
What if the different positive /negative bonuses just made it easier or harder to advance?
This would make advancing much quicker if you choose the right Race/Class combo, but once you reach tier 4, the differences would be evened out.
(A bit similar to the extra effort it would take to achieve an innate in a different way).
This would of course be easier to design and balance if we had a list of all the potential bonuses.
So we've got evasion, accuracy, damage and magic.
What else?