4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: Estidn on April 13, 2008, 12:09:44 am
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I personally don't care either way but seems to be a lot of debating. Might as well post reason why you want it and reasons why you don't want it here as well.
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It's overpowering, it also takes away the distinction between classes and the purpose of them and makes everyone be the same class or two that has great tier 3 and 4 skills because they get the skills from all tier 2 classes anyways so whereas one class might be great because of its tier 2 skills it'll never be used by GM's.
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Basically what Fiz said.
It makes an otherwise potentially great tier system into a boring, 'let's all be the same' system. It basically makes us a classles system with classes. I see more potential for fun, and more indepth character design if GM were to be removed.
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GM helps to kill high level mobs convieniently.
Put it this way, a T4L50 thief (non GM) can kill mobs up to T4L50 easily, with just regular combat (with backstab, encircle).
However, the thief faces problems with higher level mobs, in the sense that other skills 'poison weapon' don't work on them, immune to backstab, etc. Encircle helps, but that's the only skill which does so.
So I GM for buffs, and cure critic, which makes it easier for me to kill such mobs. If there wasn't GM, I'd probably go for either hunter or priest, just because the other classes unique skills/spells tend to not work on higher level mobs who seem to be immune to them.
On second thought, how about having skills like tinker, manipulate, poison weapon, etc, limited to the person who performs the skill. Eg, if I tinker a weapon, I should be the only one that can wield it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from just levelling a T4L50 (class), that can do that, and then pass a weapon to their main character?
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Hmm, curious checking the level of the highest level mobs I've seen Fizban manage to take. Tier 4 Level 65
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How about a fifth tier with better skills/spells only unlockable after you've went through all the other classes?
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Erwin is right, if we remove GM, we need to stop making all the mobs - !disarm, !sleep, !poison, !DEATH :P. Etc. That just suits GM's. And removes even more class differentiation.
On second thought, how about having skills like tinker, manipulate, poison weapon, etc, limited to the person who performs the skill. Eg, if I tinker a weapon, I should be the only one that can wield it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from just levelling a T4L50 (class), that can do that, and then pass a weapon to their main character?
The thing with this is, it removes some economics from the game. But.. We don't seem to have much anyway with inflation, and timers and the like so. I agree.
I don't agree with a tier 5 though, it's unneccessary. Removing GM and having 4 good tiers so you can either specialise or multiclass would be better.
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I voted yes that I would prefer GM be removed.
I love being a melee class. That's all I know and all I want to be. I hate that all the time and money I spend practicing skills just disappears when I have to go to another class. I would prefer to specialize. I am apprehensive about having to go through all the magic classes, which I know nothing about, just to end up a melee class.
There are a few good things I see in GM. One is what I saw from Erwin in the Galdiator arena -priests can kick ass and are cool. I would never have guessed that. Another reason is that having to go through all the classses gives a better personal understanding of weakness and strengths of all the classes - which is good.
I would prefer differentiation based on skills. Although there is such secrecy and fear of giving out quest information or being a part of helping in quests, that I can't ever see someone asking a thief to group and help pick a lock even if classes were differentiated.
Anyway, yes was my answer to the poll question. However, I don't know anything about what GM means to really make an informative decsison.
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I am no big fan of GM either, so I voted yes too.
Mainly because I like the variety that classes give, and since GM seems a bit overpowered to me.
(Of course the recent KOTM showed that GM isn't everything, fighting skills do still count). :)
Anyhow, I think you should get SOME reward after you run through all classes, but not nearly as large as present.
Perhaps a couple of extra skills/spells, and perhaps you should be able to choose from which class you want them? Or even choose which extra skills/spells you want (probably with some exceptions)?
This is just out of the top of my head, I haven't really thought through it.
So maybe the bonus suggestions had better come from the experienced players.
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Anyhow, I think you should get SOME reward after you run through all classes, but not nearly as large as present.
Perhaps a couple of extra skills/spells, and perhaps you should be able to choose from which class you want them? Or even choose which extra skills/spells you want (probably with some exceptions)?
This is just out of the top of my head, I haven't really thought through it.
So maybe the bonus suggestions had better come from the experienced players.
*coughterribleideacough*
That would just be a slightly weaker GM.. It'd mean everyone would be striving for it, more levelling, more remorting.. Same old, same old.
I think that we should have the option of specialising in a class (getting to tier 4) or multi-classing (doing 4 different tier 1 classes). Or even trying a 2-2 style with 2 tiers of 2 different classes, or a 3-1; same again. And that all of these option could make for an equally strong player in different ways.
Currently, we do potentially have the option to do this, but they're not equal at all. Not in the time and effort to achieve, nor the strength of the options at the end. And everyone just shoots for GM anyway.
What I don't want to see, are rewards for mindless levelling further than is necessary to make your character the way you like it.
There's a lot more to it, but unless we get a descision to start working on the change.. I'll leave it at that for now.
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I think one of the steps to move away from a GM culture would be to make mobs not have any immunities, save for cases in which it makes sense. Makes sense as in there should be an RP reason why a mob should be immune to certain skills/spells, rather than "because the mob is high level / a quest mob"
Of course, if this happens, there are some things that has to be set, eg.
-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.
-Directional spells should work on all mobs, BUT the mob should be able to track them. (Perhaps turn un-aggro if aggressive, and maybe return to its lair if not pursued by the player after a set amount of time.)
Because if you think about it, there are 8 different classes, and each class should have his (or her) unique way in vanquishing the obstacles in their path, possibly should be something like the below.
Priest - Heal spells, defensive spells, minor damage spells
Mage - Offensive status spells, offensive spells
Esper - Defensive status spells, Offensive status spells, Offensive spells
Thief - Steal, (if failure) Poison Weapon
Gypsy - Steal, (if failure), spells, tinkered weapons
Ranger - Not much unfortunately..Kick? Maybe upgrade bow/crossbow for it to be viable?
Hunter - Direct damage in combat, cure crit, behead
Warrior - Direct damage in combat, bash, cleave
Hmm, maybe meld pick lock and knock together into one skill/spell too. While 'pick lock' is the standard fare skill for rogue classes, it seems to have little importance here, because many doors are unpickable. Knock has the same restrictions as pick lock, but has the additional fact that it opens all openable doors, which is a rather convenient door opener for the lazy :)
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-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.
That there's actually the only part I disagree with, as long as the mob attacks on a failed steal attempt i don't see any reason to limit any more than you'd limit it to how many times a warrior could kill the mob.
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I think that we should have the option of specialising in a class (getting to tier 4) or multi-classing (doing 4 different tier 1 classes). Or even trying a 2-2 style with 2 tiers of 2 different classes, or a 3-1; same again. And that all of these option could make for an equally strong player in different ways.
When I had initially come to 4d, I was under the impression that the remort system worked in this fashion, and that theoretically I could mold a unique character by either jumping from one class to another to gather a variety of low tier skills/spells, or stick with one class and grind it through to tier 4 for that classes' particular fancy tricks. As it stands, I have little to no interest in making an effort to attain GM...not because I don't care for leveling in the least, but because ...well yeah. Mostly because I hate leveling. :-\ It seems like a terrible waste of energy to go through every class, and like Virisin said, end up being all the same.
Ranger - Not much unfortunately..Kick? Maybe upgrade bow/crossbow for it to be viable?
Indeed. I've been playing with bows/crossbows/guns a lot lately,both for RP and for fun. However, outside of those two occasions I find they are damn near useless...
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-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.
That there's actually the only part I disagree with, as long as the mob attacks on a failed steal attempt i don't see any reason to limit any more than you'd limit it to how many times a warrior could kill the mob.
But where would the supposed 'difficulty' be if such mobs can be stolen again repeatedly. Perhaps put a wait flag on it for 1-2 mud hours before you can steal again. There has to be a balance certainly between choosing to steal (quest) items and to kill the mob. Or maybe lag the person for a few rounds after stealing, so that rogue classes aren't chosen just because 'they can steal and avoid combat'.
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If a failed steal attempt initiates combat there is no safety. Also the item would load on the mob, to steal more than one of the item the mob would still need to be killed eventually. Also why would you pick thief because they can avoid combat? That might get you the piece of eq, but last I checked experience points were deducted and not rewarded to the player when they fled from combat.
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If a failed steal attempt initiates combat there is no safety. Also the item would load on the mob, to steal more than one of the item the mob would still need to be killed eventually. Also why would you pick thief because they can avoid combat? That might get you the piece of eq, but last I checked experience points were deducted and not rewarded to the player when they fled from combat.
Wimpy can be set at 50 percent your hp, so there is still some form of safety, unless the mob is the kind that can kill you in one hit. Not sure what you mean by to steal more than one of the item, currently you can keep on stealing until the mob has nothing left. And as for fleeing from combat, I had the impression that most people kill difficult mobs by attacking, retreating/fleeing when HP gets low enough, heal up, and engage in combat again. The XP won by killing it is just a small fraction of the total amount lost.
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Not sure what you mean by to steal more than one of the item, currently you can keep on stealing until the mob has nothing left.
Items load on mobs when the mob loads, I can't rob the object wait 5 minutes then steal again unless the mob has since been killed, so in essence it's still not usually any easier to hoard the items than it is to just kill the mob.
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On a side note, mobs shouldn't really be that 'immune' to directional spells if they are sentinel. Because I can use crossbows to lure sentinel mobs out, and they do track players.
I am assuming that the Bengal Tiger and Don Meataballa in Little Italy are sentinel mobs, because they have never tracked me before when engaging them in direct combat. They are 'immune' to directional spells, in the sense that firing directional spells at them will miss, and they will not track after such spells are fired. However, after firing a crossbow bolt, they come out of the room and attack, even to the extent of tracking you.
If spellcasting classes are able to 'run' about and fire spells at these mobs, that would further differentiate the classes.
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I didn't read all the posts, they seem to say almost the same things and complicating up the environment.
I like to make things as simple as possible but not any simpler.
What I'd do is:
- Remove the GM Tier1 and Tier2 spells that they get from all classes.
- Leave the GM sign after title as a sign of global mastery and honor for the GM player.
- Leave the mastery bonuses for any specialized class.
- Add a few carefully CHOSEN spells like: cure critic, locate object, armor, bless, haste, shield and a few others that may help an old player that worked hard to be GM don't get annoyed while traveling the 4Dimensions just cause he's missing the basic spells and remove the overpowers like all the rest :-)
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Blehg.. Weakening GM just makes it boring. I'm not too worried about the strength of GM, it's just that any form of GM removes the differentiation from the game. If we leave all the mastery bonuses in, and leave some form of GM, we'll have exactly the same problem. Everyone will want to reach it, and there'll be no point changing anything.
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Beside the fact that I didn't understand 'Blehg' I think you're being too absolutistic. It's a good thing that players aim at the GM status, it's a challenge that keep players playing and make them go through all our beautiful class and taste the work beside their beauty. Else why did the coders work so hard if nobody is playing anything else than Thief or Hunter. I'd leave the Mastery bonuses for willing to be GM players to achieve. I'd just remove the all classes spells that just screw all the balance up. I am very strong in this idea, you must come out with something more than a 'Blehg' to change it. Explain well what do you think and what would you do, and think about it in a 4Dimensions Mud Improvement way. Not just your personal way.
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To do a complete overhaul of GM and Tiers would most likely only be compensated by a pwipe. If there is no benefit at all from remorting, and only classes differentiate anything then it sucks greatly for people with tons of remorts... as if it dosn't suck already since you get nothing after GM, and that is the only thing worthwhile gained from remorting, other than the hp benefits up to 25 remorts and a very slight decrease in damage reduction up to 50 remorts. After that you get more mana and moves still (which begins to be meaningless because it's tough to run out unless poisoned)... and you end up just having greater costs to recover.
I'd recommend that if getting rid of GM's is desired, there has to be some backbone there to make people want to get out and level, but not be totally dependent on levelling to do quests, and quests to level easier. That way people can get the best of both worlds, in turn making 4d a more desireable place to be. That's just my take on this.
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While players can look to see GM as an achievement, I've only seen one player fighting mobs all the way to GM, during the last three months, and it seems that after he reached GM, he stopped playing. This is probably an isolated case, but it does deserve mention.
If GM were removed, would there have to be any difference in the xp required to level, as you can only have 4 tiers worth of skills/spells?
Hmm..perhaps instead of the quest machine showing easy quests, medium quests, difficult quests, perhaps group them by combat intensiveness instead. As a new player two years back, I sort of catapulted into a few quests with heavy combat intensiveness, got my ass kicked, and vowed to GM. Then after I GMed, I found the 'easy' quests with no combat intensiveness....
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But if the xp required per level was changed, What happens to people with tons of remorts? Would the extreme amount of xp required per level all the way up be then calculated out and we'd have like 160 remorts? I know that's a bit extreme, but my point is, for any real major changes you have to have just compensation for higher remorts and current GM's for example. Otherwise if there isn't just compensation we should have pwipe and have a whole new system in place. That'd be the only truly just thing, because once again everyone would start back on the same field once again, as we did 4-5 years back.
Maybe that's just how I see it?
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Odd that you, the person with the most remorts of anyone besides Alpha whom has one more remort than you seems to actually be suggesting a pwipe. I could be wrong, but I'd have expected you to be quite pissed off and quit if there were to be a pwipe...
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Nah, that's just the only thing that levels the playing field. EVERYONE then loses all their effort. But that is the only real solution I can see if we are talking a major overhaul. No matter high remorts are screwed unless getting high number of remorts has its benefit. So all in all someone needs to come up with a means to an end. Once that's figured out then a change should be made. But just saying lets get rid of GM because we want differentialness isn't a reaon. You have to think about all consequences and everything affected by it.
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It's a good thing that players aim at the GM status, it's a challenge that keep players playing and make them go through all our beautiful class and taste the work beside their beauty.
No, it's not a good thing.. I've stated why a hundred times in my posts. If everyone aims for GM, it takes all the fun out of the classes.. It means we have no real depth, and the whole tier system is pointless..
Else why did the coders work so hard if nobody is playing anything else than Thief or Hunter.
Everyone is playing only Thief and Hunter BECAUSE of GM.. They get all the cool skills/spells from other classes, and with them, Thief and Hunter become the strongest classes.. If you want people to like all the classes.. Removing GM is what we SHOULD do.
To do a complete overhaul of GM and Tiers would most likely only be compensated by a pwipe.
That's why my new plan is only removing GM, not making any enormous overhaul of tiers..
Also, yes, removing GM would mean increasing the exp taken to level. Because people would only generally remort 3 times. Maybe a couple more if they decided they wanted to try something different.
Geh to writing any more.. Silly ideas..
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You still haven't offered a proposal of what will happen to all GM's currently and everyone who has a lot of remorts.. meaning 32+ primarily. Such as, will experience be redivided and suddenly we have an ungodly number of remorts. Or will there be any milemarkers for remorts like at such and such level you get this bonus or can pick from this list etc. Taking away GM and not leaving anything else up the air, while having many people only get to 3 remorts and people are stuck at 32+ with nothing to show for it seems a bit off to me...
Just making us have 8 different classes isnt going to set us apart from other muds with our class system, just make it a plain old one. With a change such as this I would also see the possibility of newer skills/spells to be learned. GM kind of set us apart a bit from other muds, but with this new skills/spells being taught on mobs, that just makes us more like Zephen/Once's mud. It's not unique. All we have going for us is our quests, which are fabulous, but that shouldn't be all we have.
Also since most classes will be different once again, bring back group levelling and exp divied up by the involvement or equally? Grouping was very popular in old port and helped the pbase in my opinion. I think that would help bring the community together as well make it a more fun place to be. There should be no more soloing of hard zones like dark planet and prehistoric forest.... Also this does raise the question of power levelling being possible. But even in old port people weren't power levelled all the time, unless that is you count the grouping. But grouping made levelling fun back that, instead of making it a chore as it is nowadays. Anyone agree?
With this, and the gold coins equation. Harder zones with harder mobs that need to be grouped to be killed should obviously have the gold upped a bit or an equation taking into account how many party members there are. Just a few thoughts.
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You still haven't offered a proposal of what will happen to all GM's currently and everyone who has a lot of remorts.. meaning 32+ primarily. Such as, will experience be redivided and suddenly we have an ungodly number of remorts. Or will there be any milemarkers for remorts like at such and such level you get this bonus or can pick from this list etc. Taking away GM and not leaving anything else up the air, while having many people only get to 3 remorts and people are stuck at 32+ with nothing to show for it seems a bit off to me...
Just making us have 8 different classes isnt going to set us apart from other muds with our class system, just make it a plain old one. With a change such as this I would also see the possibility of newer skills/spells to be learned. GM kind of set us apart a bit from other muds, but with this new skills/spells being taught on mobs, that just makes us more like Zephen/Once's mud. It's not unique. All we have going for us is our quests, which are fabulous, but that shouldn't be all we have.
I'm still thinking about what would happen to GM's.. The most likely option in my own head is a pwipe. But I'm still thinking about it.
Ermm, I think having tiers and remorts already sets us apart from other muds, it's just that GM makes it seem just like any other constant levelling mud. If we were to bring in a change, that let us multi-class almost like the old code, or choose to specialise, that WOULD make us different. And it'd also allow for heaps of other cool features. Imagine a warrior with mage + priest + esper background. They'd have to wear melee and caster eq, a mix of the best of both sets of eq to be able to cast well, and fight well. It'd give us a hell of a lot more equipment variation, that's for sure.
We had quite a big discussion at recall about this yesterday, in comparison to the old code, this new code seems to just be a bigger, longer version of everything. I agree with you that grouping was fun on the old code, it was also fun only needing a couple of remorts to be able to be strong..
I will write more about the conclusions of the discussion after school.
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OooooO Pwipe??
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Also since most classes will be different once again, bring back group levelling and exp divied up by the involvement or equally? Grouping was very popular in old port and helped the pbase in my opinion. I think that would help bring the community together as well make it a more fun place to be. There should be no more soloing of hard zones like dark planet and prehistoric forest.... Also this does raise the question of power levelling being possible. But even in old port people weren't power levelled all the time, unless that is you count the grouping. But grouping made levelling fun back that, instead of making it a chore as it is nowadays. Anyone agree?
I think this is one of the best argument for reducing the GM benefits that I heard so far.
Grouping is fun, it promotes bonding and socializing between players. Back when I was an active player, I never leveled alone. Grouping and chatting with my groupmates between fights was what made the game fun for me. And then for some reason and at some point it became all about soloing.
So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.
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So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.
I think the answer to that is this: If xp is based off damage done to target and you have the skills to tank AND heal yourself, why group with people? If you group that means only that you'll level slower. why was the way xp was given changed? i believe that had to do with the powerleveling of people. So, it means we've got to change how xp is given - not have it based off how much damage you do - and somehow make it so there still isn't powerleveling. I'm not sure if it's been changed or not. If it has, it just probably means that people are so used to soloing now they have to get out of the habit.
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Well, it's a combination of GM + tiers + remorts and the new grouping system. Because of GM and stuff, the range between player strengths is vastly bigger than it was on the old code. And seeing as exp is divvied up depending on damage, the only efficient way of grouping would be to find someone with pretty much the same amount of remorts, and definately be the same tier. This is one reason I always voted for change.. Because having no GM and a different system would allow for better grouping, and better PK aswel.. Because PK is affected in the same way as grouping, with the vast differences in strength. I personally would prefer the option of powerlevelling, as opposed to no grouping at all. I know when I was a newbie groups of 10 or more players doing 'aussie runs' were the shiz.. And we'd all get good exp aswel.
(Sorry for the crappiness of the post.. I'm rather hung-over atm.)
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Was Virisin into my stash of Bacardi 151?
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I know where you live..
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I honestly kinda thought the group exp worked out for what it was. I know a lot of rp'ing went on while out on those trips. Like the time Muse killed Darkwolf cause Darkwolf killed a puppy in aussie and Muse called him a traitor to his race. That was fun...
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Id say, by removing gm, all of us that did it, lost time, now i dont really care on what happends i know Virisin is whining cause hes to lazy to go level and whatnot, but if you remove it we that did it should have something extra, you cant fuck up the remorts we have its not fair its not like you can do it in 3 hours people ware online alot to get to gm, beeying gm is cool and its not overpowered. As Molly said a Gm is not immortal non gm chars can kill a gm easy. Now stop whining and start playing everything was cool we had something to remort for, if you remove it, people will just stay tier 4 some class level 50 and thats it and recall will be full once more, not that is not. Ayways that was my 50 cents about this problem. Happy Easter to the ones that celebrate it tomorrow.
ciao,
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and its not overpowered.
Yes it is.
As Molly said a Gm is not immortal non gm chars can kill a gm easy.
That requires a mediocre GM and a pkiller with substantial skill to be the non-GM. Yes, Lionheart can kill you, Virisin can clobber you silly, but there are probably less than 5 non-GM's that can touch you.
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I originally voted to remove GM because personally I like the idea of specializing rather than remorting and going back to zero. But given all the recent changes (or proposed changes) and how I've felt about it, I've tried to put myself into the shoes of a GM and I guess if I was a GM I would be very warry of the possible deletion of GM. I would like to change my vote to neutral. Anyway, here are just some thoughts on GM. They are not all my own but I hope you find them worth reading and considering before going forward with the deletion of GM's.
Removing Gm is not going to make the characters more in depth. Gm is not what causes the classes to be unbalanced. It’s not what causes mutliclassing to suck and it sure in **** is not why people don’t group together. And Gms are not overpowered.
Classes
The gladiators showed that classes are not balanced. This is no fault of Gms. Skills and spells need to be properly adjusted. There are tier 1 and 2 spells stronger then tier 4 spells and there are quite a few useless spells.
MultiClassing
Once again having all tier 1 and 2 skills on Gm is not what makes multiclassing suck. Mutliclassing sucks for one because you only get max hp/ speed bonus on whatever tier you are on. Say you a tier 2 thief, tier 2 mage. You only get max hp that a tier 2 thief gets and only the max speed bonus a tier 2 thief gets. Which is going to make that character suck against any a non multiclassed tier 4 player.
Grouping
You say Gm ruins grouping because they are exp hogs - ever taken a look at most of the current Gms out there. They have the best equipment or most of it. That is what causes them to do more damage. What’s going to happen when everyone starts hitting Tier 4 and they are not going to remort out of the class because there is no point to. They are not going to hunt, so no point to group with someone when hunting wouldn’t do them any justice.
There also needs to be stronger mobs that CALL for the use of grouping. Just removing GM is not going to make everyone go “lets group and Kill dinos” because you don’t have to be GM to kill dinos effectively.
GMs being overpowered
Gms should not get every tier 1 and 2 skill because it makes being a certain class in Gm more powerful than another class. But, that is not the Gms fault. That is who ever coded the systems fault. For instance, a tier 4 Gm thief gets parry, dodge, phase and brace. While a tier 4 warrior only gets brace and parry. That is who ever coded parry and brace to be a tier 1 and 2 skill. Either start moving some of the better skills up a higher tier and only allow a gm to pick a handful of spells and skills they want when they reach GM.
The thing that makes most Gms powerful is that they have spent a lot of time in the game. And with all of that time they have learned how each class works, how all the spells works and they have done quite a few good quests so by the time they hit GM they have good quest equipment. Gm is not unkillable - the main thing with how strong you are depends mainly on Equipment.
Making characters more in depth
Actually I think it’s just going to cause more players to become lazy. After you hit tier 4 there is no need to level, and not everyone can quest or likes to quest so there will be even more people sitting around in recall doing nothing.
You remove Gm and raise the amount of exp tnl. That is going to cause more aggravation. It’s going to take longer to get your spells and skills. And sometimes as it is going from mid level tier 3 to tier 3 level 51 on most classes takes forever because the amount of exp is almost trippled from what you needed as tier 1. So it’s going to even take longer and just is going to make it more boring and less exciting.
In conclusion
No one forces you to be Gm. And Gm is not what is ruining the mud. Gm is not what makes you uber. It needs some changes done to it but removing it no. Its a status symbol and it actually gives you something to do in the game and work for. No one forces you to level and you dont have to be Gm to be strong. Virisin, Lionheart and a few others prove that already. Dont blame Gm on why your weak. its called you need to start figuring out quests. And gaining quest equipment. A gm thief with 200 damroll is gonna suck just as bad as a thief with 200 damroll.
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So why don't people group any more? That's the question I think we should ask ourself, and also what could be done to encourage grouping in different ways.
I know why people don't group anymore - the group code has become too strict.
Players in a group get exp based on their damage done in combat and everyone gets hit by the mob they are fighting. If a tier4 player goes levelling grouped with 3 tier2 players - beside the fact that the tier2 players will receive very less EXP than levelling solo or even none if the tier4 player does most of the damage - they risk to die very often. So levelling grouped nowadays is not worth it - we don't have to ask ourselves why people don't group anymore - ask directly the code.
Make the grouping code proficent for group levelling again and be sure people will group - I'll be the first to encourage groups myself. I loved group levelling, I get bored levelling solo but I'm forced to do so by the code.
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Rebuttal time..
Iwku first:
They are not all my own but I hope you find them worth reading and considering before going forward with the deletion of GM's.
First of all, GM is not going to be deleted.. Simple as that. So, basically your whole post is moot. :P But I'll explain why you're wrong almost every point anyway. :D
Classes
The gladiators showed that classes are not balanced. This is no fault of Gms. Skills and spells need to be properly adjusted. There are tier 1 and 2 spells stronger then tier 4 spells and there are quite a few useless spells.
Gladiators actually showed that classes arn't too bad. Without outside interference, each class on it's own is actually fairly equal. There are a few exceptions, but on the whole it's not too bad. Yes, there are tier 1 and 2 skills/spells more worthwhile than tier 4 skills/spells though. That's a problem, and being worked on.
No one ever actually said GM makes classes unbalanced, I just said classes could be cooler without GM. But it's not going to happen.
MultiClassing
Once again having all tier 1 and 2 skills on Gm is not what makes multiclassing suck. Mutliclassing sucks for one because you only get max hp/ speed bonus on whatever tier you are on. Say you a tier 2 thief, tier 2 mage. You only get max hp that a tier 2 thief gets and only the max speed bonus a tier 2 thief gets. Which is going to make that character suck against any a non multiclassed tier 4 player.
Multiclassing is MADE to suck currently.. GM doesn't make it suck because we're not meant to multiclass. I think multiclassing COULD be a cool option, but for it to work, it kinda needs GM to be removed. I never said GM makes multiclassing suck. Again, we're not removing GM though. There are possibilities on different styles of play, but a GM overhaul isn't really on the agenda. Skills/spells organising and groups are.
Grouping
You say Gm ruins grouping because they are exp hogs - ever taken a look at most of the current Gms out there. They have the best equipment or most of it. That is what causes them to do more damage. What’s going to happen when everyone starts hitting Tier 4 and they are not going to remort out of the class because there is no point to. They are not going to hunt, so no point to group with someone when hunting wouldn’t do them any justice.
There also needs to be stronger mobs that CALL for the use of grouping. Just removing GM is not going to make everyone go “lets group and Kill dinos” because you don’t have to be GM to kill dinos effectively.
I say GM and tiers and remorts ruins grouping because of the vast differences in strength. And it's true.. But we can fix grouping. And it's possibly going to go back to the way it was prior to code change, which was rather fun.
Also, if we WERE to remove GM, and we're NOT going too... We would change the time taken to level to tier 4 as well. You always seem to miss the fact that when something is changed, other things are changed relatively around whatever was changed, to keep the same scale.
GMs being overpowered
Gms should not get every tier 1 and 2 skill because it makes being a certain class in Gm more powerful than another class. But, that is not the Gms fault. That is who ever coded the systems fault. For instance, a tier 4 Gm thief gets parry, dodge, phase and brace. While a tier 4 warrior only gets brace and parry. That is who ever coded parry and brace to be a tier 1 and 2 skill. Either start moving some of the better skills up a higher tier and only allow a gm to pick a handful of spells and skills they want when they reach GM.
The thing that makes most Gms powerful is that they have spent a lot of time in the game. And with all of that time they have learned how each class works, how all the spells works and they have done quite a few good quests so by the time they hit GM they have good quest equipment. Gm is not unkillable - the main thing with how strong you are depends mainly on Equipment.
"That is whoever coded the systems fault." - I must say, that made me laugh. :P If somthing is unbalanced, is it always ok because it's not the systems fault, it's whoever coded the systems fault?
Anyhow, yes, GM's are overpowered, but it's partially because of certain bugs. And those are being fixed. And with a more organised skill/spell system, it will be pretty much fine anyway.
Yes, equipment is the main factor, but masteries are as well.
Lion: Yeah, pretty much. A strict group code that's focused around tiers and remorts means we all lose.
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With the current speed changes, I'm not sure if the system of giving xp to those who do damage would be feasible, I'd rather an equal split, *even if it leads to people power levelling. I'd guess the aggro mobs roaming about high level zones would put off some people from power levelling, especially if they kill in one hit.
As for multiclassing, that would be a cool idea, but we would need additional skills/spells that would make multi classing a viable option, something like what Mord said a long long time ago. Like a Gypsy/Thief could steal from a distance. Or something like that. And the HP would need to be equalized. Perhaps once you hit a certain number of remorts, say 20, your HP at each tier would be roughly the same as the average HP of the T4 hps of your multi-classes.
As of now, I'd think caster classes have the advantage of being more 'specialized' than the melee classes, with spells like dispel sanc / control weather / evil eye / magic bubble / etc at T3 and above, whereas melee classes just get a generic cleave / behead / encircle, and a small boost to stats with hyperactivity / martial arts / etc.
I'd like to think that a T4 Esper with 3 remorts can do some major PKing, even without elementals :)