Things you'd like to see on 4D (Recovered)

[Diandra]

Kvetch — Sat, 02/16/2008 - 15:35

We've all played on other muds - well.. maybe not all of us, but most of us - and we've seen things we like and things we've disliked, I'm sure. I'd like to know what things - either from other muds or from your own devious minds - you'd like to see 4D incorporate. Or maybe changes you'd like to see.

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Kvetch — Sat, 02/16/2008 - 15:53
I thought I should start this topic out since I started it. One of the changes I'd like is a change to the remort system. I know this was highly discussed on the other website and I'm hoping that we can talk about it here without flamewars.

I'm not a big fan of being level 50 and then remorting to level 1 and losing most (if not all) of the skills/spells I used to know. It really doesn't make sense to me at all. Personally, what I'd like is to see options being created at level 50 which would add to the current class/race/whatever. Then increase the levels so instead of 50 levels you have.. what? 100? 200? (Shoot if we took all the times you remort.. that's 8 classes x 50 levels... 400 levels? *eek*) If we have choices every 50 levels or so, at the end each character would pretty much be unique.

For example (and please do not think this is even partly set in stone - it's more like water):
At level 1, you create a human (gringo for our example) warrior. Level them up to 50. When you would hit level 50, you would be given a choice to add a class (thief, priest, mage) or a subrace (Vampyre, Werewolf.... other humanoid hybrid) which would have their own benefits (blood-drain, shapeshift, something else). At level 100, depending on what you chose at 50, you'd have different choices. But all of this would add too your character and not take anything away.

I know, this would probably be a coding nightmare, but I'd enjoy that a lot better than what we currently have. Though, it's a lot easier to live with what we have as an IMM... *heh*

Kvetch

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Virisin — Sat, 02/16/2008 - 20:57
This sounds a lot like my idea for a new remort/tier/levels system:

I also hate the fact that we spend so much time levelling only to constantly knock ourselves back by remorting and losing everything we had. It seems pointless, all for the sake of GM, so we can suddenly become uber.

I would much prefer 200 levels system in which we could either specialise in a class, or multiclass. This could be done as a classless system, or with classes:

Classless = There is no remorting, and very limited practices, just lots of skills/spells, and all the higher level skills/spells have lots of pre-requisites, so you either learn lots of lower skills across a range of classes (multiclassing), or learn only a few lower skills that relate to one class so you still have practices to spend to specialise as you level up more.

With Classes = Choose a class, when you get to level 50 you can either remort to another class, and carry on from level 51, or remort into the same class and carry on from level 51. Either you collect a range of different class skills/spells, or specialise by getting all of one class done.

I visualise a system like this taking not quite as long as mastering all the classes, but still a long time. And it means each character is a lot more unique. Rather than everyone trying to get to GM like currently, and automatically having all the same skills/spells.

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Interactive mobs

Erwin — Sun, 02/17/2008 - 06:24
Well, I've an idea, but I'm not sure whether it can be easily implemented. This comes from playing adventure games, rather than muds.

A dialogue system with mobs, which gives options on how to respond, with a set of choices, removed when a player selects it to talk (added in again when talking to the mob again), and new options added after certain choices are selected.

Eg maybe 'talk to pirate'

You engage in conversation with a scruffy pirate.
[1]Can I borrow your pieces of eight?
[2]Arr, is that eyepatch for real?
[3]Do you do pirate performances for little kiddies?
[4]My name is Guybrush Threepwood and I'm a mighty pirate.
[5]Look, a three-headed monkey!
[6]You have the sex-appeal of a Shar Pei
[7]It's been nice meeting you.

'2'
Player: Arr, is that eyepatch for real?
Scruffy Pirate: Why yes, my eyepatch is an inheritance passed to me by my father, who was a famous pirate in the Southern Seas. Nowadays, no one really keeps up the tradition. Who goes around now dressed in a red coat, wielding a rusty cutlass, and having a pegleg for a foot? I'd have to admit, that was a painful decision, but it's all in the interests of culture and promoting piracy.
But as to whether my eye is still there beneath the eyepatch, why it still is. I use both my eyes to read "The Annals of Piracy, Volume XII at night".

You engage in conversation with a scruffy pirate.
[1]Can I borrow your pieces of eight?
[2]Do you do pirate performances for little kiddies?
[3]My name is Guybrush Threepwood and I'm a mighty pirate.
[4]Look, a three-headed monkey!
[5]You have the sex-appeal of a Shar Pei
[6]Can I borrow your book?
[7]It's been nice meeting you.

"6"
Player: Can I borrow your book?
Scruffy Pirate: No. It's on loan from the Pirates International Secret Society Of Fearless Felons, and it's already overdue. And please do so as well.

Scruffy pirate initiates end of conversation.
Conversation Ends.

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Kvetch — Sun, 02/17/2008 - 06:46
If I did that, you realize I would never create a quest that needed you to interact with that particular mob. While I do understand that sometimes you feel like you're playing a "guess the word game" with some of the mobs, it shouldn't be handed to you on a silver platter - which is what this is. In real life, you don't talk to someone and have them give you options on what they're willing to talk about - neither should it be that way in the game. I really wish we could do more with the mobs so they can be more like real people and you can talk to them about almost anything - but as a builder to put all the possible things you could talk about - and all the possible ways to say it - in without them just blabbing about whenever someone happens to say anything in the room - it's just a bet crazy.

Though I do try to give some mobs knowledge of their surrounding areas and you can ask them about things "to the north" or "in the cave" or things like that, things that you really wouldn't have any reason to ask other than you were "making conversation" with the mob.

I just don't want players to get all the information they need/want just because they choose the right number... eventually.

So, while I appreciate having the choices in games like Baulder's Gate, I think it would detract from the immense possibilities and imagination of the builders (and players) on 4D.

Kvetch

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Erwin — Sun, 02/17/2008 - 07:53
Nod, I realize that.

Just that the mobs now are a bit too predictable. I have an alias to say hello, hi, greetings, howdy, hail, may the force be with you, help, please, thanks, as well as the mob desc and room desc.

About 95% of mobs respond to that, and then it isn't too hard to start a quest. Completing the quest however, doesn't involve much interaction with the mob (apart from giving it the quest items required or doing something it asks.)

But to be honest, I wasn't really thinking of questmobs when I posted that, but more of ordinary mobs. Shopkeepers, the odd unique mob like head guard, etc.

[nanukimo]

I currently dont mind the remort system we have. Only thing that has ever aggravated me was losing skills that I have already previously trained in another class, and then having to retrain it in another class. Such as losing retreat in Hunter then having to retrain it when I am a ranger. And what happened to the idea of getting rid of the guild master and everyone having to go seek out people to train them in that skill. I see nothing wrong with keeping the current remort system and just tinkering with what we already have. break up the skills and scatter them and add a few more spells and skills for each class. Making a more wide variety of skills/spells available for each class. That way not everyone has the same thing. I also thought of making it so you can chose your elemental strengths and then you can base skills and spells you want off that.

Back to remorting into gypsy and being level 51, I mean why should you be uber straight into remorting into class. Keep all existing spells skills from previous classes. You shouldn't, you should have to earn your way up to it. Maybe add something such as in example: You get tier 4 Warrior and you remort into hunter. As long as you remort into the same class group you can maybe use the tier 1 and 2 skills from Warrior as a tier 1 Hunter. Also i think cha should be raised from 100 to maybe 200. Change some current cha items around and add some new ones. getting 100 cha is just too easy as it now. You dont even have to kill big hard mobs to get it. Its nothing like getting melee equipment.

Then you need to split up where you learn skills at. Put better skills such as snare, trap aware cleave ,behead, encircle, retreat, heal, and etc in hard to reach areas or  have them given out as quest rewards. Theres quite a few zones that could do with a make over or have a few quests put in them. Star Wars zones for one, Elven City, Mother Goose. Just to name a few.

I mean with what your talking about would for one be a PWIPE and its already been said that no PWIPE would happen. Your asking for a huge code change and a huge change to the mud itself. Its something that would completely change 4d. This mud just isint about leveling. Ive spent more time questing then Ive put into levels. This mud is based off questing. Yes you can hack and slash your way around this mud but if you do the quests leveling becomes so much more easier with the better equipment.

All in all theres no reason that you cant make the current remort system better and use it. Its a good system just needs tinkered. I just think its too big of a change and time would be put better if we fixed what you had now.

[nanukimo]

In addition

You could also make skills such as brace, dodge, and phase effected by the the % you have in that skill. And not just the higher the % of the skill you have the better chance you have of innating the skill on you.

You can lower the amount of practices you get also. I mean you get a crap load of practices You should not get practices based off Wisdom and Intellect. It should be a set variable that doesn't increase or decrease Reduce the amount of practices add more variety or skills your gonna be forced to pick and choose skills.

There is a lot of things you can do to tinker and improve the current system rather then just ditching it.

[Mordecai]

I would like you guys to think about how a change in the system, adding new skills, or changing the way in which you get skills would affect existing players and what they have collected up already.
Including existing GM and such.

Adding races, classes, and individual skills, and skill prerequisite's is relatively easy.
The hard part is making the changes in a way that positively affects as many people as possible.

I have found over the years, that if you add or change something in the structure of how something is done in the game, such as, the gains from remorting, or skills gained, you get a lot of disappointed people.

So, if with your suggestions you make, you can help me and the other coders find an easier way to apply something to the game, we would be greatful, and your ideas will be put in the game a lot faster.

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An example of what i am talking about.

If we add to the game 60 player levels instead of 50.
What repercussions would that have on the code and the game?

• every script in the game that checks if a player is a mortal, or a low level, or a high level player would be wrong suddenly, and need updating to fit with the new scale.
• All the skills and spells that you gain at different levels would need updating too.
• The points gains you get when you level up would need to be adjusted to fit the new scale too.
• The level restriction on any objects that have level restriction in place would need updating.
• All help files and display screens in the game and the website would need updating.
• Our website profile on vote sites would need changing to show the new levels
• And so on...

What repercussions would that have on existing players and future players?

• How would it be handled for people who were just about to Remort and were level 50, who now suddenly they have 10 more levels to go?
• Would the level exp needed to get to level 60 be retroactively applied to reduce the total remorts a person has to make everyone even, or just left as it is, if we made it retroactive how would that affect GM's and Masteries?
• People just gain exp easy enough, why not make it so you have to get 5 of your levels by grouping with others, 5 of them from quest exp?
• and so on...

Is the total gain to the mud by this change MORE than the expense of all the Admin and Coders time to implement the change?

[Molly]

Thanks, Mord, that was exactly what I wanted to say myself.

It's easy to suggest a total upheaval of the existing system, if you are not the one being stuck with doing all the grunt work with adapting loads of things in the Mud to it. Everything in 4D is so intertwined, that every changes affects scores of other things in the code, the zones and the Webpage. That's our main quality, but also our main curse.

So when you suggest changes, please be a bit realistic and suggest things that can be added on TOP of our current system, not things that basically mean a totally different Mud.

For instance I think we are stuck with our basic 8 Classes and 8 Races, since they are mentioned in so many places in the zones and quests that it would be next to hopeless to dig them all up and change them. But it would be quite possible to add some extra Classes or Races strictly as Remort choices.

Personally I'd like to see a Class system that offers an alternative to the GM option, by specializing in one of the existing Classes. Thieves could develop into Assassins, Rangers into BountyHunters, warriors into Bladedancers, Mages into MoonMages, etc. Each of the Specialist Classes could get a number of individual and powerful skills/spells (or subskills, if that is easier to code), designed to make them equally good as a GM, but much more individual. Many of the ideas Tocharaeh had in a post on the old Forum could easily be adapted to such a system, and so could Virisin's idea about specialized Trainers.

Likewise we might offer Vampirism and Lycantropism, or advanced Races like Dragon or Sphinx as remort options.

[Fizban]

For instance I think we are stuck with our basic 8 Classes and 8 Races, since they are mentioned in so many places in the zones and quests that it would be next to hopeless to dig them all up and change them.

grep -inR "centaur" *