Is 4D dying? And if so, how can we save our beloved Mud?

[Molly]

Kvetch raised a subject on the Admin board about the now dangerously low playerbase, and what might be done about it.
It's a sad fact that 4D seems to be slowly dying - a fate we share with many other text muds, but that doesn't make it any less depressing. 

Anyhow, the first thing that comes to mind is of course to ask for input from our players, old and new ones.

So here are some blunt questions that I hope we can get responses to, from both players and imms:
(You don't have to answer all of them of course, just pick the ones that are relevant to you.
And please try to be as specific as possible, we can take critic, but it should be constructive.
The options I put at the end of each question are just starting points).

1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
(game got too hard, game got too easy, too many changes, too few changes, wrong changes, too little RP, too much RP, player conflicts, bad imms, boredom, all my friends left, RL changes, playing WoW etc.)

1B. (for imms) What made you stop working on 4D?

2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
(new code features, new zones, new quests, better balance of equipment and classes, more interesting Clans, more imm-run events, more player-run events, timered events and quests, more new players, more old players returning etc.)

3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
(4D used to be like a big chat room, where people hung out just to talk with friends. Is there any way we could bring at least the Recall Squatter spirit back again?)

4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
In particular I'd like ideas about how to target and reach a new audience. (Even of most of the gaming interest has moved to graphics, there must still be thousands of people connected to internet, who like to read, and might enjoy the more complex atmosphere of a Text mud. But how do we make these people aware that Text muds in general - and 4D in particular - even exist, now that muds are no longer mainstream?)

5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?

6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?

7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Maybe it's just nostalgia talking? Maybe it was just more fun because back then it was new and fresh to you? Or because there were more active players back then?
But if there is something specific that you think was better before, please share your thoughts here.

8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?

9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?

10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?

[Virisin]

1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
Going to uni pretty much, though lots of wrong changes probably played a bit of a part.

2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
Better balance of equipment and classes, more interesting clans, timered events and quests, more new players, more old players returning.

These things would definitely bring me back.

3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
If everyone else was there.

4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
This is something I'm not sure about.. Making it an iPhone app would probably be the best way.

5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
Mud school itself is really amazing, but the actual character creation code is a bit fucked up and the newbie initiation stuff is weird.

Logging into the mud for the first time you get bombarded with HINTs every 3 or 4 seconds (every second hint being 'use NOHINT to turn off hints'). You then have to wander through a few tutorial rooms going downwards where you've suddenly got to stop going down or you drop out of mud school and start heading north towards mud school itself. Most of these first rooms have inviting down exits all open by default asking if you want to drop out and go to recall. You then have to deal with a really overbearing Gordy the Greeter and choose between mud school, newbie zones and a bunch of other places. This is not ideal for a newbie that really doesn't have any idea whether they should go north, east or west and only really benefits older players creating alts and skipping through everything. Once you actually manage to make it past Lionel I imagine most newbies would be hooked at least for a while, but I imagine a lot of newbies leave before they even make it to the 'real' mud descriptions themselves, and through the tutorial stuff.

This could be fixed quite easily by linking the first 2 rooms a new character loads into up to north of Gordy, rather than south of him. So fresh new players start and head straight towards mud school, and only when they hold their feather, recall and head north again do they hit Gordy.

Also the character creation code is really annoying in that it doesn't allow for a 'back' option, one of the fundamentals of a creation interface.

New characters are also created with nobat toggled off, saving them from 'who' spam but not giving them the details they want during fights.

6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Dern, see above.

7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
Definitely mostly nostalgia mixed with no players on the mud anymore to hang out with.

8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
Sibling rivalry.

9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
4d has everything for it and also so much against it..

10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?

[Tocharaeh]

1A. What made you stop playing 4D?

Full time job + overtime at said job + school + Family time = hard to play anything anymore until I graduate in June.


2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?

Well, with the absense of the new code, I find it unlikely for anything in 4D to truly draw me back aside form basic socialization. It's too monotonous for me. game lacks balance in so many areas across the 4D spectrum.

3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?

I do what I can now. nothing will ever keep me away for too long. I like popping in to see who s on, and shoot the shit with them.

4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?

Well, I've been trying to get people to make a Facebook application for a long time now. Seems like anything I have said to help get numbers up, and help the mud, is ignored for the most part. I'm not even close to being a coder. I don't know prograsmming languages, but there are people who do, and they don't want to do it. What it really comes down to is not what the PLAYERS think about bringing in numbers. It's about what the IMMS are WILLING to do to get the numbers.

As I see it, (excluding you) we have a bunch of imms who have holed out spots of eternal IMMdome, and don't really care one way or another about numbers increase. Maybe it is out of fear of getting in better imms/coders in the future? Look at that whole Horus deal. It only ended terribly. Too many cooks in the kitchen, nobody talking about the same recipy.

5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?

Most people dont like reading. Every single one of us that plays muds still, tend to be readers. We like imagination. We are a huge minority. However, you are competing with big name games like Starcraft, Warcraft, and the upcoming Dialbo III. People flock to those kind of things, not counting XBOX Live, and PS3 games that absorb gamers lives. Gaming has evolved to a much greater monster. Mudding has gone from mainstream classic internet gaming to that old dirt professor who peeves on all the hot gamers he THINKS are girls. But we all know that there are no girls on the interwebs.

6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?

See post above. Also, Mudding is not an easy thing to do. Especially our mud. Players now-a-days who do quest on visual games, get ! markers, and ? markers to show who and what is affecting/giving a quest. Players get it easy these days, on top of fantastic graphics to look at.

7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?

Old code was great. the days of Dela, Alabaster, Omega, Tynian, Odinkirk, Darkwolf, Zsjin, and so on- Those were great times, aside form the blatent cheating that went on of course, but great times. The code was simple. The gear was a little more balanced so taht everyone kinda worked on the same playing field. The only competition we had was to see who could remort the most, adding to their HP/MV/MP like crazy- getting largeer and larger numbers. That was it! So simple, and so fun.

New code came along, and things changed drastically. Groups were messed with. Classes got wierd, and sloppy. People were no longer coming together to fight big bad bosses, and spamming the rest of the world with their deaths. Cheating went rampant, and unculled for a long time.

The only time we had big numbers is when we had drama queens like Exodus/Azreal, and so on. Because 4D likes drama, and our numbers always jump with the intensity of said drama.

8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?

Alabaster, Dela, and Odinkirk. I know Odinkirk IRL, and he got me into MUDs. Logged on, and met cool people. Some strange random IMM named Molly welcomed me to 4D and gave me a Gold Token

[Virisin]

I think people these days forget that the new code was originally great. Most of the imbalance and shit came at least a year and a half after the change.

[Asmodeus]

For me, although I still tend to get on to hang out, it comes down mostly to 3 things...

1: Real life.  I am in graduate school, and so I am extremely busy all of the time.  Unfortunately, 4D is near the very bottom of the things on my list of things to do even in my free time.

2: Lack of things for me to do in game.  I've been a part of 4D for a looooooong time... over 10 years, and not only am I out of big quests to do, the few things I haven't done just don't really interest me enough (if I did do them, once they were done, i'm back to where I am now).  I've pretty much explored everything too... theres just not much interest in the game aspect for me anymore.

3: There are very few people around these days, as is quite obvious.  I tend to get on more when I see people I know on to chat, but even that is on a downward spiral.  I'd probably be back on more if there were more of my buddies from the past on, but even then, see reason 1.

I am still working on a zone, but slowly.  Why?  Well, because when I FINALLY would get it done, it probably won't see that many explorers.  Good zones take a lot of time, and the time I do have can be spent doing things way more productive than building, and its hard to justify that amount of time while in school, when barely anybody will see the end product.

As was my view during the whole code change conversations, mudding is on a downward spiral in terms of popularity and interest.  Toch's ideas may hold some weight to boost activity, but only implementing them/time would tell.  As for getting them to stay... well, who knows.  Probably more people on.

[Kvetch]

I'm not an ex-player or an ex-IMM, but I thought I'd try to answer these questions as I see it:

1A. What made you stop playing 4D?
I'm not an ex-player - I'm still found online most nights (usa nights that is).  Off and on I have considered quiting for one reason or another, but I keep staying because I really do love to build on mud's and 4D has so many options and has let me be as creative as I want to be (sometimes pushing me past what I think is my breaking point with scripts).

1B. (for imms) What made you stop working on 4D?
I haven't stopped working (yet - though it has slowed down) but the fact that there are so few players currently on has made me wonder if what I"m currently working on is even going to be seen, much less cared about.

2. What might make you start playing/working actively again?
More players on would make me more active in trying to get my zone(s) done so people could explore them.

3. What would make you at least log on to socialise a bit more often?
You need people to socialize with.  Without that there is no socializing.  I logged on the last two nights and there was one afk person on.  After half an hour, I left.  I've got a life too and decided to spend a little bit of time with the people in my real life since there was no one in my mud life.

4. How can we attract more new players to the Mud?
I've been doing what I can - posting on sites like TMC and TMS with special things like the haunted house.  I may just do a general posting later on those sites to remind people that we're here and we're always looking for players.  But without those that know the game willing to stick around to help those that don't know the game, I don't know what we can do.

5. What can we do to make the new players want to stay longer?
I'm not sure.  They seem to like Mudschool as their hand is basically held through that until they get to the academy.  So unless we're willing to sacrifice some principals (look, a big yellow ! is above this guy's head, maybe he's got a quest (though we do something like that with the trainers... *innocent look*)) and hand hold them throughout the rest of the mud, I don't know.  The only other possibility I have is to make sure that almost every mob has some sort of quest - even if it is a small one ("get me a flower for my girlfriend") instead of just a random number of them (yes, we have a lot of quests), make sure that things listed in the room description is actually listed as somethign to look at (I don't know how many times I see "you don't see that here" when it's in the room description so obviously I did...) and it is little things like that which can annoy people at times when they're expecting so much more.

6. What do you think specifically turns newbies off our Mud?
Some of it can be the fact that you really don't know how high of a level someone is.  You see T4 level 50, but you don't know how many times that person has been T4 level 50.  People like to be able to compare how they are with how other people are.  If I"m level 50, I want to know that the person that's level 100 is probably going to kick my butt and the person's that level 20, probably will not.  But with the teirs, multiple remorting/whatnot, you don't have that.  On most games out there, there is a max level to shoot for so you know how far away you are from it, and once you're there, you should be able to take a LOT of things in the game, though maybe not all things - that may require a group.  It may take a while to get to that level, but its there.  Also, there have been promises of things that "will be in soon" for years.  Look at the trader's office in the recall area: * The Crafts are not yet implemented, but we expect them to be soon.   It's said that since I was a newbie.  I'd almost rather have the trader's office taken out than have people think "oh, in a couple of months we'll have crafts, cool" then be disappointed when it doesn't happen.  Right now we don't have a full time coder that works on the mud and makes heavy changes - changes that we'd need to get crafts put in.

7. Some players tell me that 4D was more fun in the old days. Is this really true?
I really don't know how to answer this.  I don't consider myself having been a player in "they old days" though I've played for around 5 years.  I do know when I started, the main playerbase seemed to be Swedes and that timezone, these days, the people I run into are usually from USA.  Maybe we need to put a public service message out to the Swedish again.

8. What was it that first attracted you to 4D and made you want to stay on?
I was looking for a mud that would let me build.  I'd been on a mud and had gotten an idea for an area, but was told "we don't accept player submitted area ideas" which totally turned me off.  You'd think that since I'd built on a mud 10 years previous and had at least some building experience there would have been some thought to it, but it didn't even get that far, the IMM on that mud was not interested in listening.  So, I checked out - TMC, I think it wask - forum and saw a post by Molly stating some of the things a mud called 4 Dimensions had - quests and things like that.  So, logged in, had a problem (kept ending up in some spa when I tried to use the stagecoach in mudschool) and the IMM Molly and Mordecai both actually seemed to care about it and days later it was cleared up.  Then I asked about becoming a builder and was told I had to get to level 40... so after doing that about 3 times I finally asked if I was high enough level yet - rest is history.  Oh, plus I liked talking to the people on - there used to be people on....

9. Any particular of todays features that you like/don't like?
Seeing as I don't actually play (since I'm a builder and IMM and check on scripts that error, or scripts that interest me, I didn't think it'd be fair since I could use that knowledge for my mort - which to me felt like cheating), I find it hard to answer this question.  I have heard from other players that quit that they did it because of the change with how skills/spells were learned (that's when the trainers went in).  Some people don't want the extra work of having to look around the zones (and we do have a lot of them) for a skill/spell.  personally, even with how it used to be, if I knew I could level quickly, I didn't bother getting the top skill/spell for my class.  I mean, look at priest who's top skill is mana blast - at level 50.  The next lowest skill is level 32.  I never did reach level 50 as a priest, but I probably wouldn't have bothered trying to find whoever trains it (now, if I happened to stumble across them, that's another story).

10. Any particular old features that you miss and want back?
Yeah... players.  There's a feature I miss and want.   Sometimes features get changed and I don't even know it.  Like the change from having to choose your class during creation and going to the choosing either fighter/caster/rogue and later choosing your real class.  I don't know how long that was in before newbies started asking me questions about it and of course I didn't know anything about it.  Which really doesn't make us look too good when the IMM's going "huh?  what?  What the heck are you talking about???" I don't really know of any features I want back, persay, but I'd like to think that 4D is too good to die - we just need to find the right players to appreciate it more.

[Virisin]

Trainers is one implementation that I think went horribly wrong, and most of that probably lies on me. I still think they could be a really cool feature on a thriving 4d, but the timing of the implementation and the subsequent collapse of Anubis' proposed code changes ended up leaving us with a system that would have been more appropriate after a pwipe and just annoyed a lot of older players into not remorting at all anymore.

[Molly]

I had really hoped for some more constructive suggestions, but as usual I seem to have been over optimistic.

However, we have to start somewhere, so we'll take what we've got, and maybe some more ideas will come up along the way.

One main complaint, that seems to pop up whoever you talk to, is the specialized Trainers. This was a change that I believed strongly in myself, which is why so much work (including a RP event) was put into it. But apparently it's a change that most players hate, so I guess the best we can do is to revert it.
Consequently the 8 Class Guildmasters, the 9 Clan Guildmasters, and the 2 Trainers at Recall (Lionel and Mike) will be set back to teach all skills and spells. (The specialised trainers will still teach their chosen skills, since it would mean unnecessary work to remove that. People can use them if they want, and ignore them if they don't).

Of course, the above promise is dependent on getting a coder to make the actual change, but since I think it should be a relatively quick fix, I am hoping one of them will oblige relatively soon (fingers crossed).

I've fixed the entrance to Mud School, and I'll take Kvetch's hint and also fix the desc in the Traders' Office, which has been annoying me too for a very long time. I really wanted these crafts, but obviously there is little chance of anyone taking on the massive work that is needed to finish them, so at least I'll make sure that there is no false info given in the game.

However, I am not deluding myself into thinking that fixing the Trainers will make players flood back into 4D. I also don't believe that Anubis bailing out on us with the proposed new code is the main reason for the present decay, even though it certainly didn't help much, neither before nor after the fact.

The main problem lies much deeper, and is partly something that we share with most Text Muds. With all the competition from flashy graphics, Text Muds have gone out of fashion, and the combined playerbase for all text muds is shrinking, while so far the number of muds has stayed relatively constant. This makes it increasingly hard to get new players to replace the old ones that inevitably leave the game sooner or later. And as long as there are no other players on line, the ones that actually do log on will leave soon after they notice that nobody on line is responsive. It's a vicious cycle that leads to a downgoing spiral.

So is there any chance of attracting a larger part of the existing player pool that still are into Text Muds?  Or tapping into new sources, by reaching the number of people out there, who still like to read and might enjoy depth and complexity, and alert them of the fact that Text Muds even exist?

Toch mentioned a Facebook application, and I've heard of a Mud that got a significative inflow of players by developing a client that allows people to play from their i-phone.

And Virisin has expressed willingness to do some coding work for the Mud, and can probably combine the inevitable learning process with an assignment in his computer Class at Uni.
Originally I think his intention was to clean up the fighting code, and perhaps get rid of the Tiers and GMs that also seem to have been a rather unpopular change.

But perhaps his offer of putting in some effort would better be directed into working with a client, that makes it more user friendly and perhaps helps attracting a new type of players?
And if so, should he concentrate on i-phone or Facebook, or is it possible to combine both?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Jason Orsini]

My laptop is in the shop for another 4 weeks that is why i havnt Been on.... be back sooooon

[Tocharaeh]

"And if so, should he concentrate on i-phone or Facebook, or is it possible to combine both?"

-Anything is possible, and I really believe it could help us big time.

I'm going to have a couple extra bucks that I can spare here in the near future to make a facebook add that will pop up. I STRONGLY believe this will help, but really only if we can get an app together. players these days are lazy. DLing a random mud client isn't really gonna happen unless they're truly interested in text games.

IF we have an app available for said lazy players, then BAM, no work required and now they're playing seamlessly on FB! Win win situation in my opinion.

[Virisin]

I will do my best to try and make a facebook client and an iPhone client.. I have no idea how difficult either are at this stage though, and I can't really devote any real time to it until next year. If you can wait until then I would be eager to have a go. As of now.. I have an exam to test me on my Java capabilities tomorrow, unfortunately it's 2 hours after an exam testing me on how much I know about some various political subjects.

[chroma]

Hi!

I am new to this MUD and I really quite like the concept. I don't know much about it yet, but I can honestly tell you that the first thing that hits me that would make me turn away from it? The move points system.

It is really horrible to be lost in a giant area, trying to find this one quest NPC from a vague mention on a quest card, only to repeatedly run out of move points and have to stop and rest for several minutes. Since there is... almost no one on whenever I am logged in, I can't just sit and chat with someone while I wait, and I am not going to sit there and count the seconds. What happens is that I click out of the window to do something else while I wait. And then, when my move points prison time is over with, I am excited! Yay, I can move again! A dozen rooms or so and then I have to stop and recharge.

It kills the experience.

[Kvetch]

Invest in a mount!  Actually not saying that to be mean, but that is one of the reasons they're in the game - to help with the moves.  I'm glad you're liking the game so far other than that though. 

[chroma]

Yeah, I know about mounts. But then I have to use my precious practices to learn how to ride a mount, and then have to solely depend on it for everything and relearn how to navigate around the MUD.

Mounts are cool for some things, but, I don't mean any disrespect to everyone here, it is a fatal flaw in a design if they are /required/ for daily survival.

[Tocharaeh]

moves are a stupidly dead concept anyhow.