Poll

What should be done about GM?

Nothing. Leave it alone.
Get rid of it.
Make it only save tier 1 skills
Make it save the last 8 remorts (aka 2 tier 4s)
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Author Topic: What should be done about GM?  (Read 17127 times)

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Offline Once

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What should be done about GM?
« on: September 17, 2011, 10:01:30 pm »
Here are some of my thoughts. Post your own and vote. Ideas we deem as good will be added as additional poll options. Note: You can change your vote, and you have two votes as I'm guessing there's a lot of fencesitting here. Please vote on what you feel will best make the game engaging and give long term replay value/long term content.


Thanks,
Once

Offline Virisin

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2011, 10:21:47 pm »
Get rid of it! Woo, I have posted many times on why it ruins the game, so I'll only go into it again here if someone really doesn't understand.

Offline Jaros

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 11:56:03 pm »
First I voted 8 REMORTS, then I wondered how well this would work in practice and changed to straight GET RID OF IT, then Viri answered my question in his new topic by positing that 2x tier 4 would let you learn both specialist trees a class might have.  So I voted GET RID OF IT AND 8 REMORTS!  :o

Offline Molly

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 02:20:07 am »
A have to agree, get rid of GM and allow players to keep skills from their last 8 remorts.

It would be the basis for a more strategic game.

Offline Xeriuth

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2011, 08:12:09 am »
I voted for the last 8 remorts idea. (Mainly because it was my idea) However one thing that I think would need to happen in conjunction with this is the experience needed per remort no long increasing. Have it just be set.  Someone with T4 at 50 remorts shouldn't need anymore than someone T4 at 80. Unless of course there is some sort of minimal benefit of remorting more. I can only imagine that the buffer right now only saves your last 3 remorts with your current. So your four prior are gone. This means everyone will have to remort at least 4 more times to get their 8 remort pattern, but they like their current class, so they have to remort 4 moer times to get their current class. At higher remorts like Jason and I, that's rough needing 8 remorts.  Perhaps a way around this is give everyone with 8 remorts or more, or every GM the ability to pick their pattern, since they are losing GM, and or no longer can work towards GM. 
Also since of course this is all about remorts. Once mentioned before at recall when we were all speaking about remort incentives that we could have a remort point allocation system. Where each remort you get you can put the point(s) into natural hp gain per level, magic or melee damage increase (direct or percent), defense, evasion, speed, etc.  The idea is to have many many things that someone can specialize their points in, to be more suited for their class. for instance a mage probably doesnt care much about hp anyways and wants to make their fireball uber, so they put all points into damage for just that, but a warrior might want more hp and damage, whereas thieves go with speed and damage. With all of these options and with no limit there is no set remort goal, and if remorts become easier to attain with no gradual increasing of exp, people can remort and level with their favorite class hybrid to keep getting more points. the bonuses will be small, so sometimes not extremely noticeable, like a 0.5% damage buff, 5  more hp a level. But with the hp varying in a range of about 30, it'll be hard to see that 5.
This remort point system would of course do away with the current bonuses given, such as increased hp gain as is per remort, and increased damage etc. Those bonuses will simply now have an option for the player to invest points into.
I think practice points as already being near pointless right now would be good to use instead of a new point system, just scale them appropriately since they seem a bit inflated. I think you get about 75 every remort. This will alllow people to also likewise invest in skills appropriately over the other areas to invest in.

These are all just general ideas. Discuss!
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Offline Tor

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 08:22:46 am »
@Once
Okay, maybe I'm just dense, but I need clarification on what I'm voting for... Is the fourth choice, "Make it save the last 8 remorts (aka 2 tier 4s)", changing GM to save the last 8 remorts, or doing away with GM and having everyone save the last 8 remorts?


Offline Xeriuth

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 11:56:35 am »
GM will be done away with persay, because you get your last 8 remorts worth. This could potentially make you more versatile then a GM because you wont get every T1 and 2 spell/skill just of the classes that you go into. GM's are one class T3 and 4 and all of them T1 and 2, this would allow you to  be two classes at Tier 4 so to speak. At least have the skills/spells of both. Examples: T4priest primary T4hunter secondary. You'd have priest health and be good at spellpower etc. But you'd have all hunter skills/spells too, so you could grapple, behead (although it'd be pointless to since you ahve a focus), hyperactivity, etc. Switch the classes have hunter primary and priest secondary, the hunter now has the spell heal, ability to control weather, cast  ice shield, etc. Of course heal wouldnt be as powerful as a priest, because they wouldnt be using a focus or have the charisma that a priest would have, but the spells are available to them. Or a hunter could pick thief as their secondary lineup  and get both behead and encircle, which could make things interesting.
It's just a new way of opening skills/spells like GM does, but with a larger variety based on your remorting path.
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Offline Virisin

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 03:47:12 pm »
Remember there will still be class masteries even if this does go ahead. Removing them would be a whole nother story, so there would still be strong incentive to master every class.

Offline Jason Orsini

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 08:25:04 pm »
this means EVERYONE would,
have priest involved in their 8 remorts..

Offline Virisin

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 08:30:22 pm »
No it doesn't at all.

Offline Jason Orsini

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 08:36:10 pm »
offcourse not.....


buuu  >:(

Offline horus

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 08:42:52 pm »
These are all bandaid solutions to a problem that is too big. I think its a waste of time discussing certain aspects of what is broken with 4D when almost everything is broken with 4D. Instead, we should be discussing what the new system should be, and working towards implementing the new system, which will resolve a majority of the problems.

For example, you are discussing about getting rid of GM, getting rid of race attributes, changing all sorts of things by providing solutions to individual problems without a bigger picture in mind. This is absolutely not the best way to move forward and no, it does not provide a clean stop-gap solution either. You are worrying about trying to keep the last 8 remorts, when a skill tree system will eliminate the need for a remorting system altogether.

And since Once has been working quite hard on this, why dont we talk about getting the skill tree system in place. We have had numerous discussions about this system, and we should be concentrating on getting the right balance for the skill trees and how it affects mobs vs players, and players vs players. We are all wasting time getting all huffy and puffy on a stop gap solution that is not effective - and my analogy of using timers and max_loads is a perfect example, we are repeating history again with ineffective solutions.


Offline Jaros

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 08:48:44 pm »
I think that's what Viri's thread is for.

We've been waiting how many years for a skill tree?  Maybe doing it piece by piece isn't such a bad idea.

Offline Virisin

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 09:32:55 pm »
I like the idea of huge sweeping changes to remorts, tiers and the whole system Horus, but we've talked about that for years and we've achieved nothing. Not even removing GM which is one of the major frustrations a lot of us have. My post in it's own thread details 4 patch solutions to individual problems that together pave the way for the whole system we talk about.

Offline Once

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Re: What should be done about GM?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 12:46:36 am »
I see the value in skill trees, but I really must admit I don't think they're a cure all. Along with several other steps they can lead us to a functional new game engine, but I think an iterative process is going to be the more likely way forward. Skill trees and skill ranks are great for re-organization but even then will need significant testing and revamping. I'm pretty doubtful you guys will be able to plan skill trees to work perfectly out of the box.

I think the better method will be to work on rapidly implementing the core concepts in a testable fashion, and then testing the hell out of them and refining. Most major changes tend to start with a ripple and are a succession of small actions built ontop of each other. Where I think this place has failed in the past is the staff have put an unrealistic goal upon themselves of trying to develop this via the "Waterfall Method" which is okay in certain client development contexts, but horribly boring for most fun software development. It's also generally a lesser quality product once all is said and done because Waterfall tends to often miss a lot of subtle details that just don't get accounted for in the planning phase.

That isn't to say there shouldn't be any planning, but waiting for some grand plan to get done that solves every single problem is probably not going to be the best use of everyone's time. It's likely not to lead to a better result, and I think we'll find ourselves taxed by trying to apply a really rigorous methodology to what is honestly a hobby likely meant for relaxing. I think we should roughly plan and think out potential consequences/incentives in the systems we're creating, but we should also release quickly and test how users are using the system. That's how I see the way forward, and happens to be how just about every open source project I've ever seen tends to get completed (for free by volunteer staff).

Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.