Author Topic: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline Kvetch

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Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« on: January 24, 2015, 04:28:47 pm »
I think it odd to lock a post that you want comments on, so we'll just do the basics of what the post seems to be we're looking for in relation to the Crafting skills being worked on.  Here were the questions at the end.  Please feel free to comment on any of these, or anything else you feel should be considered.

    How Realistic Crafting Should Be
    How Players Learn Crafting Skills
    The Limit A Player Can Learn
    Leveling The Skills
    Trading Crafted Items
    Balancing Crafted Items
    Types Of Crafts

Offline Kvetch

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 04:55:39 pm »
My gut reaction (back when Molly had posted what she wanted for crafting years ago) was that it was too... intense for a game, and a game that hardly had any players to boot (we go through cycles).  Though that may be because as a player I just want things to work and I want to be able to work on things on my own. 

Quite a few years ago, I played World of Warcraft for a while, taking a break from 4Dimensions and found their system to be intriguing, though you couldn't do everything yourself.  If you harvested plants - that other people needed - you could sell them, making money for you and helping out those people that couldn't harvest plants because they didn't have the skill.  They would use the plants and in turn make something that they could sell higher up the "food" list so to speak.  Basically in the end, you wanted a "low level" harvesting type skill (herbs, gems, iron, whatever) and a "high level" end type skill so in the end you weren't just supplying other people with items and then having to pay out of the nose for high level stuff, but you would be doing both. 

With WoW, there has never been the problem of having enough players to restrict skills to where you can only learn 2 of them.  There was usually always someone on that would quickly grab up the stuff you harvested, and if not, it was still in the auction system until someone bought it, or X amount of time passed when the system told you that no one was buying it so come pick it back up (and usually put it back on auction).

Right now, the problem I see with 4D is the number of players, who plays, when and how this would affect things.  What I could easily see happening in the case of lower playerbase is that someone creates X number of characters (none of which are on at the same time, so not multiplaying) and through those characters has all the skills to create their sword of everlasting life (or whatever).  Basically find yourself a hiding spot (there are many around the 4D world), make sure both characters log into said spot on login.  Create step 1 of weapon with base character, drop item, log out, log in character with step 2 and do that, drop item, log out.. continue until completed.  And I don't see any way we can stop this.  But, that is another point entirely.

Dealing with the example of the sword - I guess I've never thought of a sword being more than formed metal - formed into the blade, the pommel, the hilt.  And with that thought in mind, as a player, I would never look to find someone with the woodworking skill to craft my hilt or a stone worker to craft the pommel (though I'm sure there will be help files for such questions, I'm just not seeing it coming naturally to people - and never having made my own sword and all the movies, shows making it look like they're all made out of metal - I would question the reality of it).

I would hope that anything that had to go through multiple steps would be "worth" more than something that has to go through only one or two.  Using the example of the robe, there are 5 "necessary" steps and 2 "optional" steps listed.  If the sword above only has to go through 3 steps (only an example, I'm sure it's more) shouldn't the 5 step robe be "worth" more in the end and by that I mean be more useful to a player than the sword.

And the last bit would be how "time consuming" all this crafting will be.  Am I going to have to wait through 1-2 minutes of lines of scripts telling me what I'm doing every time I do the same step?  How long before someone starts going "yeah, yeah.. I get it... I'm forming a pommel for a sword..."  And how many times do we think it's going to take players before they just either start zoning out or, in most cases, figuring out a way to make their own browser scripts to basically "bot" the thing because 1) it's quicker and 2) it's boring to read it every time.  To make my point, who here reads through the trip on the boat to RIP in time every time they go there by boat?  And how many of you have said "it's so boring", or "it takes too long"?

In the end, I would hope that EVERY crafted item would be of much more value than any item you buy directly from a store - and most of the basic items you get from mobs.

I'm not bashing crafting at all, really.  I want to see it.  It's been promised since before I joined 4Dimensions.  I do think that everybody shouldn't be able to have all the skills because it's about helping each other as players and for some of us getting us out of our "I want to do it on my own" shell.  There has to be a good reason for me to hunt down Bane, so he can create a part of something for me, because in the end, I have to trust he's going to give it back after he's done his step (which is why player ran shops would be a good idea).

My 25 cents.  Take it or leave change, if you please.

Offline Bane

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2015, 06:31:02 pm »
I think it odd to lock a post that you want comments on, so we'll just do the basics of what the post seems to be we're looking for in relation to the Crafting skills being worked on.  Here were the questions at the end.  Please feel free to comment on any of these, or anything else you feel should be considered.

We decided as a group to lock the main Faq thread. We want a clean thread that represents how crafting will work. This way when new ideas are added, or things are changed it easily seen.

We apologize if its any inconvenience to open a new thread to post your idea, but doing it this way lets us specifically take each persons idea and discuss that idea, with out various other debates from other peoples ideas going on at the same time. We encourage all players to post their ideas or changes for the the over all crafting aspect on new threads. This way it keeps it more organized, and each thread more on point about what they have in mind.

Once we break down into each spefiic crafting skill, there will most likely be certain posts to post ideas. Like a Recipe thread, MiniGames thread, Material thread.

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With WoW, there has never been the problem of having enough players to restrict skills to where you can only learn 2 of them.  There was usually always someone on that would quickly grab up the stuff you harvested, and if not, it was still in the auction system until someone bought it, or X amount of time passed when the system told you that no one was buying it so come pick it back up (and usually put it back on auction).

Right now, the problem I see with 4D is the number of players, who plays, when and how this would affect things.  What I could easily see happening in the case of lower playerbase is that someone creates X number of characters (none of which are on at the same time, so not multiplaying) and through those characters has all the skills to create their sword of everlasting life (or whatever).  Basically find yourself a hiding spot (there are many around the 4D world), make sure both characters log into said spot on login.  Create step 1 of weapon with base character, drop item, log out, log in character with step 2 and do that, drop item, log out.. continue until completed.  And I don't see any way we can stop this.  But, that is another point entirely.

There was an issue with the Main Crafting Faqs, where some of the information was cut off. Its now been fixed but I will post part of it here because it deals with what we are talking about.

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HOW MANY CRAFT SKILLS CAN A PLAYER LEARN?

Some basic skills, like skinning, scraping, tanning, shearing, carding etc, will be available to everyone, while others will be restricted.
Our initial plan is to allow a player to learn two HARD crafting skills and one SOFT crafting skills.

We know we have a small player base, and understand that this will require players to work together. Which is one reason why we want to open player ran shops. So players can sell parts to other players so they can build their full item they want. If 2 HARD and 1 SOFT is'nt enough we can adjust it.
If players want to make an Alt to for other craft skills, I expect that. I see players doing it and nothing wrong with it. But we do need to keep an eye on how well everyone works together if we take this route we have planned.

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I would hope that anything that had to go through multiple steps would be "worth" more than something that has to go through only one or two.  Using the example of the robe, there are 5 "necessary" steps and 2 "optional" steps listed.  If the sword above only has to go through 3 steps (only an example, I'm sure it's more) shouldn't the 5 step robe be "worth" more in the end and by that I mean be more useful to a player than the sword.

You used the sword as an example, but it does have alot more then just 4 steps to it. It has 4 MAIN parts to it. Each part of the sword has its own steps to create.

The Hilt, Pommel, Blade, Crossguard all have their own specific steps on how they are created, and optional steps as well to enhance it.

But to answer your question, we will take into account how hard a process is to determine how good the final object is. We also know we have to balance between quest items and crafting items. Which was another part of the Crafting Faqs that was missing.

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HOW WILL YOU BALANCE CRAFTS VS QUEST ITEMS?

Since this is a quest heavy mud, and we do not want to take away from players who like to quest for these rewards. We have thought of a few ideas.

Durability being added to a crafted item. This process will try to help keep crafting alive, and not die out after a time period where everyone can make everything they want, and not have to craft again.
Certain Items may be restricted to a certain group. The Crafter, First Player to use the item, Or a crafting group
Quest items being part of a recipe.
We also have a few equipment slots that have never been introduced into live play. These where to be restricted to crafted items only.

We also want to try to keep crafting alive, and not just have it die after everyone makes what they want. So somethings as of right now will be restricted, or have a durability to them.


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To make my point, who here reads through the trip on the boat to RIP in time every time they go there by boat?  And how many of you have said "it's so boring", or "it takes too long"?

The initial idea to keep it from being boring, is to make it interactive. Where player's will need to interact with something while they are in the process of crafting an item.. We plan on trying to make it some what of a mini games on parts that we can. If you look at how gardening is you have to fight off pests, or maybe the plants start to wilt and you need to water it.

For a forge, the flames starts to die down, you will have to add wood, or you  miss with the hammer and nick the blade you are crafting, you will have to fix the nick, Or you catch fire and have to put the flames out, too maybe thieves breaking in and defending them off.

I cant say for sure what the minigames themselves are, its just to try to keep it from being boring, we want to make it an interactive experience. Making it into a mini game will also help cut down on scripters. But in the end, there will always be the few who choose to write a script.

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In the end, I would hope that EVERY crafted item would be of much more value than any item you buy directly from a store - and most of the basic items you get from mobs.

For the most part items will always be better than current store bought items, but it also depends on the ammount of work that gets put into an item.

Quote
I do think that everybody shouldn't be able to have all the skills because it's about helping each other as players and for some of us getting us out of our "I want to do it on my own" shell.  There has to be a good reason for me to hunt down Bane, so he can create a part of something for me, because in the end, I have to trust he's going to give it back after he's done his step (which is why player ran shops would be a good idea).

I apologize for parts being missing off the craft faqs that explained how many crafts a player can learn. Im still stumped on how it happened. But yes in the end we want to see players working together to craft an item. We hope that by limiting it to two hard crafts and one soft craft will make players interact more.

The trust part will all be left up to a player to earn that.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:42:17 pm by Bane »

Offline Tor

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 02:16:58 am »
Locked Thread: I think that locking the main thread, in addition to "keeping it clean", will limit player input. It also can make some think that only inputs that support certain opinions will make the final cut.

Realism: As far I see the crafting plan to be quite unrealistic at present. eg: Hilt must be made by woodworker. I have numerous quality bladed tools, none of them have a wooden handle. Any material, that comes to mind, that can be shaped/finished with woodworking tools and skills can be done with those used in shaping and finishing metal. Metal cannot be tooled with woodworking tools. Fire has long been used in shaping, hardening and decorating wood items. Pommels are both decorative and provide a balance for the blade, as far as I know there is nothing that says they must be a jewel stone.

Skill Limit: Prevents there being a “renaissance man” in the game, but actually encourages players to have multiple alternates to skirt the issue. As Kvetch has already pointed out, if I understood her post correctly.

Player Interaction: Role playing makes blindly trusting the members of some clans, and esp. some players a foolish endeavor. There are numerous examples of this that I'm sure any player can come up with.

These are just my initial reactions to some of the questions brought up. I'll think on them some more as well as give some consideration to the other questions.

Offline Bane

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 10:59:43 pm »
I just want to start off by saying, don't take my posts as fighting for the system that Me, Molly, and Rynald have designed. When you post an opinion on a subject, I will do my best to give you as much additional information as I can. I do want this to be a good discussion, with new ideas and changes being added. But i do want to make sure I can give you as much information as I can, since the Crafting Faqs was more of a overview on very large design.

Locked Thread: I think that locking the main thread, in addition to "keeping it clean", will limit player input. It also can make some think that only inputs that support certain opinions will make the final cut.
I really think this is silly. If someone wants to not post their opinion because I want a post that clearly follows the crafting project without having to skim through players discussions, then i don't know what to tell them. This is an enormous task for Me, Molly, and Rynald. If they truly cant write their response in this thread or their own, Then personally I would think they really must not care that much then.

No one in the group is going to be playing favorites on whose input we go with. It will be determined mostly by the popular vote. Everyone input will be taken seriously.

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Realism: As far I see the crafting plan to be quite unrealistic at present. eg: Hilt must be made by woodworker. I have numerous quality bladed tools, none of them have a wooden handle. Any material, that comes to mind, that can be shaped/finished with woodworking tools and skills can be done with those used in shaping and finishing metal. Metal cannot be tooled with woodworking tools. Fire has long been used in shaping, hardening and decorating wood items. Pommels are both decorative and provide a balance for the blade, as far as I know there is nothing that says they must be a jewel stone.

I just want to state The sword is just being used to show an example. The actual receipes have not been all drawn out yet. The sword was to be used as merely an example of showing how other Crafting types would be needed. Im sure a metal worker could make his own hilt for his blade, it just might not give as good as stats as a another hilt made by another crafting skill

I've seen plenty of swords made with a wooden hilt, ivory hilt, and even a metal hilt. There wouldnt just be one type of material that can make a hilt. but several that could be made by different Crafting skills. It would just depend on the type of material used to determine who can craft it. If you have a good understanding on blades, then your input would be valuable when it comes to making recipes.

I dont understand where you are going with Using wood tools for metal work?

And a gem doesnt make a pommel. The gem just decorates a pommel. You would have different ways to decorate a pommel.

I do myself have my doubts on making a system like this, with a small player base. But it would be a very unique system. With the chance to attract new players and old. I do think it would be a rough start, but I think it would pay off in the end. We can still make an easier system if majority of players disagree.

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Skill Limit: Prevents there being a “renaissance man” in the game, but actually encourages players to multiple alternates to skirt the issue. As Kvetch has already pointed out, if I understood her post correctly.

Unless we make it so there is no restriction on the ammount of skills learned, there will be really no good way to keep players from making an alt to craft. There will always be people who would make an alt. The concern here is if majority of people would choose to make an alt rather then trying to use another player to craft the best item.

One way to battle this with keeping a skill limit would be to put some type of restriction on the skills. Such as putting in a level and tier restriction to reach a certain level in crafting. A lot of crafting systems in games use this as a deterrent. I think we could possibly fine tune a system to fit our needs.

We really want to encourage more of player interaction. but me personally, I think if the only reason no one wants a skill limit is because of alts, I think we should discuss a type of deterrent before scraping the skill limit.

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Player Interaction: Role playing makes blindly trusting the members of some clans, and esp. some players a foolish endeavor. There are numerous examples of this that I'm sure any player can come up with.

Im not really sure what the issue is with the trust. The only time you would be handing some one something is say you gathered or bought raw materials and you want someone to craft it into something because you are not that craft skill.

If you are a metal worker, you wouldnt be handing a woodworker your blade so they can attach a wooden hilt to it. You would either craft your own metal hilt, or buy the wooden hilt from a player, or give the woodcutter the raw materials to build the wooden hilt you want, and then once you had all the pieces needed, you could combine them all.

So as far as the trust, I think I would need a better explanation of why people are worried. Because I just dont see the big issue. Its not like you will constantly be giving people items. Unless im missing something then It should be left up to a player to earn his reputation on that.

If I am missing something I can make a type of safe trading system.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 11:08:47 pm by Bane »

Offline Kvetch

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2015, 08:24:07 pm »
Personally, I wasn't saying to not limit the number of skills people can have - and it's always easier to up the number than to lower them at a later point in time.  I was just pointing out that people will make alts so they don't have to depend/trust anyone else with their stuff.

The trust issue happens when you have people pulling stupid things all the time so you never know who you can trust because their next "big trick" when you give them a gold coin or the components to make a hilt, could be "ha!  the trick is, you shouldn't have done that, now the (coin or resources) are mine."  Don't remember who used to do something akin to that in recall to "teach" newbies not to give tokens away.  It was very handy on teaching people to never trust anyone.  OH, and no, whoever it was never got me, but only because I saw them do it to someone else first.

I like the player shop aspect of it, but there are times you'll want someone that is on to work on your stuff so you can have it faster - and that's when the trust issue comes in.  I give you my stuff and hope you're as good as your word and do your thing and give it back...  But, I'm also not saying there needs to be a system in so you don't have to trust people.  As Bane said, if someone keeps stiffing people, it'll get around and their reputation will become moot.

I also understand locking the main thread- in theory, but whether wading there, here or elsewhere, you're still going to be wading through posts... well.. provided more people talk about this.  And then, to talk about that, I have to either have printed it out so I can read it and comment on it or basically have written everything I want to say in my word program to copy paste - because there's not arrowing down to the conversation to figure out what the heck I wanted to say next (which I've used about 5 times for this post).

Offline rynald

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 12:33:40 pm »
Player shops can be used so there's no trust needed. It could work like this:

A player needs a piece of armor repaired. He puts it into the shop of a metalworker and writes some kind of order which says what should be done with it. If he changes his mind, he can always remove the item from the shop, the owner doesn't have to be on. Nobody else can remove the item, including the owner. The owner can only do the job on the item specified by the order. This should prevent most tricks, if there are any others they can be discussed in the player shop thread, once it opens.

To be continued...

Offline Diandra

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2015, 12:46:45 pm »
The only mud I ever came accross with that had its own crafting system had it set up so, that the items made, deteriorated over time. So you either had to go to a repair-NPC to have them repaired or if the item finally broke or vanished, go find the items needed to create a new piece of equipment.  No idea if this is something to consider or if it was already mentioned, not gonna reread the whole FAQ-post again. Or if it's something worth for a player to actually learn but then you go back to the whole trust-issue, but that's beside the point now.

If my memory is correct you just had to collect the needed pieces, put in a command and you had your handmade equipment. Not really sure if mini-games or lenghty scripts as Kvetch already mentioned will keep the player's attention, especially not if you have to go through the whole mud to pick up just that particular item you need for whatever it is you want to make. (A huge world can be a drawback at times.) And yes some people that play, prefer to be self-efficient without having to depend on other players to get this or that.

But my other question is the cooking-part. When I started playing here, all those years ago, all I wanted to collect was Ma Brown's recipe book and start cooking. Well that didn't work out well, seeing the thing wasn't implemented.  :o

Anyway food in 4d, in my opinion, doesn't really serve a purpose. Ok, it helps regenerating your ...points faster but as a mort I went to fill the largest drinkcontainer I could find at the milkfountain east of Recall, go to my recovery-hide-out or waited for a restore. Otherwise I just turned off the 'you are hungry/thirsty'-messages.

In other mud/games, food is used to restore health, which in 4d is done with potions.

So how will you convince players to actually go find Ma Brown's Recipe book and start cooking if all you need to do is go drink milk till you're full?

Offline Bane

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Re: Player Response to Crafting FAQ?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 01:20:55 pm »
Sorry for the lack of response, I had to abruptly go out of town for a bit and didn't get back till last weekend, and Just hadn't had time to post here. Nor did I get any notification that we had new posts..

As far as cooking, I know molly is working on it, and Im not entirely sure on what the benefit she has in mind for cooking. I personally always like the way most other RPG's do it with eating gives you a better regen rate or some type of stamina,health,mana boost.

We could stick with the current being full gives you a higher regen, but maybe depending on the type of food you cook depends on how high that regen is. She would need to clarify I think on how she envision cooking. I believe she has it most of the way completed.

To keep down the amount of players from just making a new character to learn the other crafts their main char has I think the best route will be to put a character level limit on how high you can level your crafting skill. So if they want to make an alt to do other crafts they will also have to put in time to level that character up. I think this will be the best way to battle this.


Next time I lock a post, I will open a new thread with the post in it for discussion to make everyone happy. That way we can have a discussion thread and people can see the main topic.

We plan on making crafting items have a durability also. It deteriorate over time is a interesting thought. I think the initial idea was to deteriorate with use. its something that can be discussed.

 I personally dont like the idea of taking your item to be repaired at a NPC, but rather have a item that can be crafted to be used in repairing objects. Along with each time its repaired the total durability goes down. After so many repairs the item will no longer be reparable. That way it keeps crafting into a needed demand. And not something that will just phase out after everyone gets everything they have. Now not everything with have a durability to it. Like if we do decide to allow players to build their own houses, or room I dont think we will have it deteriorate on you :). Plus this willl still make quest rewards still good, and not take away from that. Since this is such a quest heavy mud, I do not way to ruin questing with crafting.

Im interested in hearing others thoughts on the durability aspect of items.
-Bane


« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 01:24:42 pm by Bane »