Award Points

[Virisin]

I would be casting 'magic missile' from afar, it would help the RP session progress trust me.

[kitolani]

People that just hand out award points for nothing are what cheapen them. Why Virisin has over four hundred points is baffling, as I've never seen him roleplay, and that INCLUDES during the world-wide RP event. 
Then again, while Virisin was gone, I'd make the clannies roleplay and they'd get NOTHING for it. Well, they were amused, so I suppose that's something.
Award points aren't that easy to get. I've told several people that've asked me for points to fuck off, as they haven't done a damn thing to earn them. Do I fancy a great deal in the term 'roleplaying'? Absolutely. Sell it.
Hopefully, now that Natalya is back (you'd better stay -_-), we can get something exciting underway for people that want to gain points for pretitles, restrings, whatever.
Also, Sarias. I'd also roleplay with you if our schedules ever coincide.

[Molly]

Good discussion, keep the ideas coming and we will do something about it.

I particulatly like Asmodeus' thoughts about the logs. When we ran the big Qualinesti event, all the logs posted had been cleaned of spam and everything else not related to the roleplay situation, and we actually even corrected typos in them. (This was done by the staff, and it entailed a lot of work, so it's not something that I am willing to do again myself, since although I am positive to RP, it isn't my main priority - I am first and foremost a builder).

RP sessions should in my opinion mainly be initiated and run by morts. The global events we've run all meant a lot of extra work for the staff, to a point where it became a burden, instead of fun.
One problem that we need to adress is that the RPLs don't have the chance to collect RP points for themselves. That mean that the RPLs lack an incentive that other players have. I am aware that being able to award yourself RP points could be massively abused, but actually being able to award them to you buddies for nothing could be just as easy to abuse.
So maybe the reward for being a RPL shouldn't be the ability to hand out Award points at all, but instead just access to a few RP related commands, like echo and the ability to switch into mobs.

Oh, and I know, I know - RP should be its own reward, and you shouldn't even need to get anything extra for it - but that's in an ideal world. usually you need some sort of incentive to get people off their butts. And as far as I know, even RPIs use rewards to encourage good RP.

So maybe we should get away from the system where certain morts can give award points on line totally, and reserve the awards for documented events - i.e. logs.

As a suggestion, I propose is that everyone that posts a RP log has to do the cleaning up job first, and without it the log won't even be judged. Then maybe a small committee should decide the number of award points that each participant gets, and the one that did the cleaning and posting job gets a bit extra for that. The committee could consist of some imms and some RPLs, and possibly even contain the possibility for all players to rank the session from 1-10.


Opinions?

[Xeriuth]

Of course yes, all logs need all the spam cut out, and only the stuff relevant to the rp session is left.

[Asmodeus]

Interesting Molly!  

First, thoughts on the RP points.  Award points aren't going to be used for anything other than RP rewards, correct?  If thats the case, then i think 1 of 2 things happens.  Either 1, it stays sort of like it is now, and the RPLs cant award themselves, but they have to just be given the rewards for being RPL.  The way it is now, they have a title and can do the login/logout messages, but they dont have the higher rewards like the personalized long desc, or entrance/exit desc (if those are even coded in, as Thotter seems to think they're not), nor a way to get them.  Half the time I rp has been with smaller groups to help encourage them to do so, and although I take part, I am not going to sit there and award myself, that would be dumb/abusive.  I've also held riddler contests where the awards were in RP points and not tokens.  But by that way of thinking, i dont ever get points so i cant ever earn the higher rewards.  Of course, this might not cause enough incentive for RPLs, but maybe the things i'm going to talk about in a minute might be (molly's ideas).  Then obviously, the other option is to give them the award self and make them earn the rewards like everyone else.  This seems a bit weird though... i can't imagine a time where I or anyone else thinks their own RP wasnt worth the full 5 or whatever points a session can give, while at the same time you're judging other's RP and can make that decision.  Personally, I like the first option where you have the rewards already and can just worry about the RP and being a good judge of character and giving them out to other deserving RPers (again, this is as long as award points arent used for anything else other than RP rewards, which i dont think they should be)

Next, the whole "should RPLs have the power to award or not."  I think taking this power from them would make it a pain for Imms.  I know you guys like to see the rp that happens, for entertainment and for the satisfaction of knowing it happens, but just think if every little session/event/contest dealing with award points had to be sent in to be judged... thats going to pile on more work for you guys.  Especially if you're having a committee doing the judging.  Although i do like the idea maybe for bigger events/possibilities for larger amounts of award points, im thinking 'how many big events actually happen... do you really want to go through that for all the smaller rps that happen?'  I say allow RPLs to keep the ability to give out points (dont know of a time that this has been abused... has it?  other than maybe whoever gave virisin that many points... thats just wrong), and when a large event rolls around, have the committee idea come into play to decide about points.  whos in it is up to you... some imms, some RPLs does sound like a good idea.  Also, this way I can run my riddler events and give awards to those deserving :p  (is there a cap on points still?  i think i remember not being able to award everyone in those past events who should get them)

As for HAVING to document the RP and post it or send it in, i don't think that is necessary (see above reasons).  I think yes, its necessary if you want points for it and there are no RPLs or Imms participating in the event, but not necessary over all.  Maybe give some sort of extra incentive to post your RP for everyone to see on the forum to help encourage RP?  A few extra points or something to the poster, or to all involved?  Just an idea

Now, the interesting part... switching into mobs.  I know personally, this would encourage me to get more RP going... dont know about the other RPLs, but i can say that in past events, ive had to make new characters to participate in things because Asmodeus isn't someone whos going to be involved in certain rp.  Not to mention its hard to RP with existing mobs when you have to schedule a time with an imm to be there to control them.  Being able to be those mobs yourself would open up so many possibilities.

As for echo, rpls have recho already... do you think we really need any more than that? i think its enough.

Finally, just something that bugs me... why do Heros have the award command?

"The Hero option was for oldtime players, with reasonably good reputation, who
may have tired of the mortal game, but still like 4D enough to regard it as a
home. A Hero title is a badge of honour, but also a position of trust. Heros
that abuse their position risk to lose their abilities or, in bad cases, even
their Hero char."

They have award to start rp sessions and rp quests... i thought this is what RPLs were for, why do the powers cross over into hero?  hero powers aren't crossing over to rpl.  you could argue heros need it to get questing and rp occuring, but you could also argue silence and freeze could come in handy for an rpl if someone is completely ruining the rp by being an idiot.  seems either they should each have their own perks/set of commands (and those who want to be involved with both should get both flags) or they should be fused into one title (hero is almost pointless anyway)... doesn't seem right that the rp-related commands are given to a hero who doesn't even have to be an rp character.

[Asmodeus]

holy hell, i didnt realize how long that was!

[Virisin]

I'm not reading it you bastard.

[Asmodeus]

you'll read it... you refresh every 10 seconds, pretty soon you'll get bored when theres nothing else to read... it will break you!

[kitolani]

Grats, Asmodeus, you made my eyes bleed.
Can we use gossip when we roleplay please?
Also, can we make the "IC" channel dark cyan or something?
I think the whole idea of having a system of incentives to roleplay is ok, but there are simpler ways to attract people into liking it. Asmodeus is a great RPL, and I trust his ideas as well.

[Virisin]

Ok I finally read all that, and although I don't have a very strong opinion either way because I'm not too fussed with RP I agree with all the points you made. Especially nerfing HERO's. Down with HERO's!

[Natalya B.]

I agree with removing the award point system. It's actually a nice idea in theory, to be able to reward people for RPing, but by the same token it shouldn't reeeally be necessary. I think things like pretitles and such could be bought with gold, or tokens (hello, way to help with inflation/economy a little!). And I think a RolePlayer leader should just be able to do things that normal morts cant. No award system, just the ability to run events and do cool emotes and such =p And just have events/logs noted or judged, and also have awards (Roleplayer of the year?).

As for Hero, I think that flag should be removed entirely. I mean, honestly, where's the use for it? Especially under the current playerbase.

The purpose of a Hero, aside from trying to make older players feel pretty, was namely to deal with some in-game conflicts, effectively, am I right?

They award, they silence, they can do stuff. None of that stuff is ever done or used. Nor should they need to award someone, or have the ability to do so, IMO.

As for the silence ability from Heroes?... I bring back my idea I mentioned years ago. It would especially work under the new system (and I can see it's going to piss me off because I'll always be low level once that happens, but meh).

For those that harass, abuse, insult, etc, we could have the ability to THUMP someone to silence them for 5 minutes.

The catch to this is, you have to be 10 or 20 levels higher than them (for example). In the current system it would most likely be you'd have to be a few remorts higher than the person to be able to thump them.

And you can only use thump say.. three times every 30 minutes. Put some kind of limit on it so you can't harass people with silencing them.

And ofcourse, everytime someone is thumped it could always be logged away. You could even have it so when you thump someone, you need to attach the reason for thumping.

thump Jason because he called my mother a hotdog.

Just not have the reaosn show up, that would be purely for log purposes.

So, thats my two cents. Remove award points for RPing, have RPers just there to be able to initiate and create events with cool social-related abilities, and remove heroes. Or at least stop giving the flag to those that shouldn't have it (I still maintain removing mine because LionHeart was being a dick with his Heroes flag was a right move).

[Sarias]

I agree with removing the award point system. It's actually a nice idea in theory, to be able to reward people for RPing, but by the same token it shouldn't reeeally be necessary. I think things like pretitles and such could be bought with gold, or tokens (hello, way to help with inflation/economy a little!). And I think a RolePlayer leader should just be able to do things that normal morts cant. No award system, just the ability to run events and do cool emotes and such =p And just have events/logs noted or judged, and also have awards (Roleplayer of the year?).

I don't even think you actually read the thread. I think you read one post at the very top and based your whole argument from it. Let me give you an example of what this mud is, it's a hack-n-slash mud, where people usually are either questing, leveling, or pking. This isn't a mud that is based around roleplaying, but roleplaying is still encouraged. If this was a roleplaying mud, then I would agree with you that awarding people isn't really that necessary, but like Molly said even rpi's give out rewards for good roleplay. (and I would know because I'm apart of quite a few.) So by taking away the award point system, there is no way you could actually "encourage" roleplay. You're pretty much just stabbing it and letting it lie there dead. As for me I don't care if I don't get another point in my life, but there's something awesome about newbie's being able to be recognized for their little venture into rp. They usually become excited and they continue roleplaying.

As for your second suggestion about pretitles should be bought with gold/tokens. I do not agree with this one bit and don't even see how it would help the over inflated economy. pretitles, exits, entrances, really should be reserved for roleplayers who actually put some time and effort into their characters. Now, I did read what lh said about some pretitles coinciding with certain quests or achievements, and I think that would be a good idea. I'm all for awarding people that complete things. But that's all that it should be for: people that either gain achievements or roleplay. Not people that have a crap ton of gold/tokens and just feel the urge to put a pretitle in front of their name. Half of the time the pretitles are stupid anyways and don't even mean anything to their characters.

[Prometheus]

I agree that we need guidelines and maybe immortal approval before award points are given. I know that hero's can give rp points not sure if RPL can.

Prometheus

[Asmodeus]

rpls can give points, and i think should be able to.

heroes can give points, and i think shouldn't be able to

i think committees are good for larger RP events, but points for small every day events between a couple people, and contests should be able to be handled by RP leaders.

(see my last post for my reasonings)

[Molly]

I pretty much agree with Asmodeus.
The award points provide a carrot for Roleplaying, and we really need carrots since we are not RP enforced.

RPLs were implemented solely to initiate and encourage RP, so they should be able to give Award points on the spot, because it too often gets forgotten if you leave it till later. (As an example, I have still not remembered to give Sarias the Award points I promised for her nice chronicles).

Heroes were made for other resasons, and have nothing really to do with RP, so they really should have award points either. Anyone, including Heroes, who wants to take some active interest in RP, can just apply for a RPL.

However, Award points should never be given out randomly, without any RP even taking place, and particularly not being handed out to buddies. With the RPL abilities also come responsibilities.
To get a RPL, you have to apply for it, and prove that you are serious. If you abuse it in any way, you'll lose it.
We should also set up some guidelines for RPL, and the current and prospective RP Leaders can assist in that, preferably by responding to this thread. In fact, anyone interested in RP should give input. If you are not, don't bother.

To make sure that we have some way to check against potential abuse, I suggest two things:
1. When awardpoints are given out, a note to imm with a short motivation about who received it and why will be obligatory.
2. All Award points activities, will be logged, just like token transactions, so that we can go in and check, in case there are any suspicions about abuse.