Darvus, I think what Horus was trying to point out is that it isn't that there is NO reason that some people want things to be changed, but maybe that it's a reason that you're not seeing. Horus wants things changed, Molly wants things changed, heck, even *I* want things changed (the obvious one here is that Viri wants things changed). The thing is, everything ISN'T working fine and that's what the problem is and what we want to change. I'm not a coder so I've not looked at the code, but from talking to the coders it's obviously a bunch of hacked together stuff that looks like a cat threw up - not a pretty picture. The way to really get things working right is to start from scratch - coding wise first. Right now, if we just fix things that are broken, all we're doing is putting a patch on it and making the pile of cat vomit look even worse. That's not where we want to be. We want to have clean code and if we're going to have that, why not put in new things that work with how 4D was meant to work? Instead of having all skills/spells be basically the same (kid you not, Mord did say something to me once about coming up with new names and basically basing it off something else - so that's no surprise that all our skill/spells are virtually identical) why not have some depth to them? Why not make people choose how they want their character to be - instead of everyone basically getting all skill/spells that they can handle/find at their level. Make players become their character and not become something "just because they have said skill/spell" even though that wouldn't be character driven.
Don't get me wrong, I do love 4D, but there have always been things I hated about it.
Let me liken what's going on here (and perhaps this should go more under the pwipe thing than here, but here I am so here it is) with what happen years ago with a company called Wizards of the Coast. That company had a little game called Dungeons and Dragons (usually referred to as D&D). For years, they'd put out items to make the game... better.. more interesting for players. They went from "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" to "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" to "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons second edition" where they happily stayed for some time. People like me that got into D&D when they were kids (yes, I am that old) had to work through the system. AD&D could work with second edition - not much change there. But there was one item of D&D that I could not get a handle on without writing out a chart - THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0). Basically, what number do I need to roll on my 20 sided die to hit the f'ing creature in front of me? SEriously, every game, I wrote out that chart. I started to detest playing BECAUSE of THAC0, but I loved the game - I loved the imagery - I loved the friendships I gained through the game.
What does this have to do with 4D? A few years back, Wizards of the Coast did something outrageous. They revamped the whole system. They dared to move away from AD&D and come out with something called Dungeons and Dragons 3.0. The system was completely different and... quite frankly... better. The same conversations we're having here with a possible pwipe of 4D has already occured on the forums about the change between AD&D and D&D 3.0 - before 3.0 was even released -before anyone even saw it to give it a chance. It was a change - a major change - and people inherently do not like change. Thac0 worked.. why change it? Because the 3.0 AC system is better. If you're not wearing any clothes (and aren't a mob that has some natural ac), I know that I have to hit AC10 (not0, not -10) which means, unless I have bonuses because of Strength (melee) or Dex (ranged) I have to roll a 10 on a d20. I don't have to figure out the negatives to get a positive any more.
D&D 3.0 has a system quite a bit like the one explained to me by Anubis and Toch. But, from what I've heard from most people - it's not the SYSTEM that's the problem - most like the thought of the tree skills once it gets explained to them - it's the thought of a pwipe. It's the thought of losing everything you've worked for. Guess what - I lost everything when Wizards of the Coast went from AD&D to D&D 3.0, but you know what? With the new system, it was worth it. It helped me figure out HOW I wanted my characters to be. It helped me actually RUN games. It helped me become better at playing because I understood the mechanics of it. It made me WANT to build worlds - areas - themes. It made me able to do what I do today.
This may seem like a rambling point on not much that has to do with Viri's posts, or the posts on pwipe, or the posts on the new skill tree system, but truthfully, it's a post on all of it. I do not WANT a pwipe, but I do think it would be better for all if we had one. yes, everyone has spent time on a game that they will lose - yes, I know it hurts. I could point out that even if GM's got something and the rest got nothing, it would still hurt people like me that never made it to GM - because you're saying that my 5+ years of playing was lesss important than yours (admittedly I have an IMM and rarely log in my mort any more, but what of the others like me that finally decided GM wasn't worth the headache of playing a class you didn't want to play? - ie: I hate casters and if I had every remorted again, I was going to go back to the class I really liked - the one I enjoyed playing and that was Hunter).
I know I'll get shot for this post, but so be it. Viri, Tochy, Jason, whoever feels like it, rip it to shreds. The information stands as it is. D&D got better when they revamped, 4D shall too.
Kvetch
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