Skyrim

[Virisin]

4d should try to steal some of Skyrim's better worked features:

Weapon proficiencies,
Trainers,
Skill trees.

[Bane]

I dont have skyrim, so maybe you could enlighten us .

[Virisin]

Alright, I'll try to elaborate.

Skyrim is terribly repetitive in a lot of ways, but their main character development system syncs up really well and is very playable. It basically revolves around their skill tree system, level up system, and skill proficiency system.

Every time you go up a level you get the choice to increase your magic, health or stamina. This is the first major way Skyrim allows players to specialize into caster / fighter styles. A mage would want to increase their overall magic otherwise they would barely be able to pump out even one high level spell per fight, fighters would want health and anyone looking to use many skills in battle would want to up their stamina too.

Secondly, every time you go up a level you get one practice session which can be spent in the skill trees which are simple but quite well crafted. I'll copy out the exact skill trees in a later post because they'd probably be a good template to use if we ever got around to it.

As you use skills/spells from whichever skill tree they are from, they gain proficiency ranks, 0-100. Certain perks in the skill trees can only be obtained once the proficiency rank is high enough.

Trainers are relatively frequent throughout the world offering training for a price. Every character level you are allowed to train up to 5 times from trainers. So if I'm level 1 I can train my light armor skill 5 times so it's proficiency rank is 5/100 and my trainer rank is 5/5 for this level. Next level it will reset and I will have 5 more opportunities for training, or I could just go increase them through use.

[Bane]

thats a neat concept, be neat to be able to remove the race bonus's and then through the skill trees those certain perks could be perks that make up for the lack of those bonus's except this time you get to choose.

I love the fact on choosing the hp, stam, and str. You would really have unique chars.


We really need to dig into one of these ideas and start working on them. But this fits into our skill tree system pretty good.

You are also on the idea on wanting to remove classes  if im not mistaken?

[Virisin]

[Virisin]

I'm currently level 24 and I have the Destruction tree quite fleshed out now, I'm only missing Disintegrate, Expert Destruction and Master Destruction. However because I'm so specialized, the only other things from other trees I have so far are: Novice Conjuration, Conjuration Dual Casting, Novice Illusion, Novice Restoration, Regeneration, Apprentice Restoration, Restoration Dual Casting and 1/2 of Recovery, Armsman (1/5).. And that's all.

So I'm a Destruction mage that dabbles in a bit of Restoration (mainly because the Restoration tree has Recovery which allows magicka to regenerate 25% faster), can do the most basic of conjuration to conjure up familiars and atronachs to fight with me, a lonely point in illusion which I don't really need, and a bonus to one handed for when my magicka has run out and I don't have any potions to restore it and need to fight with a weapon - of which I decided one handed was my style.

[Jaros]

i like the sneak tree. the left side makes you more evasive and the right side gives you sneak attack bonuses.

i like the idea of using a pickpocket perk to slip poisons into people somehow.  and the idea of pickpocketing equipped items.

[Jaros]

also i like that these are really just perk trees. anyone can learn any skill but its value depends on what perks you have.  in terms of 4D, it would be good to open up more skills to more people but create proficiency that reduces stamina cost for certain classes of skill.  so anyone could learn heal but its effectiveness would depend on how much they invested in priest perks / proficiency at the expense of everything else, proficiency being as simple as a sliding scale adjusted according to how often you use an element or weapon type.  perks could be anything.  just fantasizing here.

[Calypso]

I was reading about Skyrim's skill tree and had similar thoughts at the time. I would love to see 4D do something like that. This is a great post, Viri and Jaros. Thanks for taking the time to write down all the specific ideas you had about it. I hope we get the chance to see it come to something.

[Kvetch]

If you were going to do a skill tree(s) like skyrim using 4D skills, how would you do it?  For help, I've listed all the skills here.

advanced melee           [100%] [L:10 T:3]  Requires: melee
 backstab                 [100%] [L: 5 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 bash                     [100%] [L:45 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 behead                   [100%] [L:12 T:4]  Requires: longarm and face
 berserk                  [100%] [L: 8 T:3]  Requires: melee
 blackjack                [100%] [L:27 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 bladedance               [100%] [L:29 T:4]
 bow                      [100%] [L: 8 T:1]
 brace                    [100%] [L:40 T:1]
 brew                     [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 charge                   [100%] [L:26 T:3]  Requires: advanced melee
 cleave                   [100%] [L:12 T:4]  Requires: longarm and grip
 crossbow                 [100%] [L:20 T:1]
 disarm                   [100%] [L: 9 T:2]  Requires: melee
 dodge                    [100%] [L: 4 T:3]  Requires: melee
 drunk                    [100%] [L:24 T:1]
 dual                     [100%] [L:27 T:1]
 encircle                 [100%] [L:10 T:4]  Requires: backstab and melee
 face                     [100%] [L:20 T:3]  Requires: melee
 filet                    [100%] [L:14 T:1]
 firearm                  [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 flank                    [100%] [L:48 T:3]
 focus                    [100%] [L:24 T:2]
forage                   [100%] [L:28 T:1]
 fortify                  [100%] [L:11 T:3]
 grapple                  [100%] [L:17 T:4]  Requires: hand-to-hand and advanced melee
 grip                     [100%] [L:49 T:1]
 hamstring                [100%] [L:10 T:4]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 hand-to-hand             [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 hide                     [100%] [L: 8 T:1]
 holy strength            [100%] [L: 5 T:2]
 hyperactivity            [100%] [L:36 T:4]
 joust                    [100%] [L:29 T:3]  Requires: hand-to-hand and mounted combat
 kick                     [100%] [L: 2 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 longarm                  [100%] [L:10 T:3]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 manifest                 [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 manipulate               [100%] [L:49 T:3]
 martial arts             [100%] [L:26 T:4]
 master melee             [100%] [L:10 T:4]  Requires: advanced melee and melee
 meditate                 [100%] [L:30 T:2]
 melee                    [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 mount                    [100%] [L: 2 T:1]
 mounted combat           [100%] [L:14 T:2]  Requires: riding
 parry                    [100%] [L:30 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 phase                    [100%] [L:17 T:3]
 pick lock                [100%] [L:49 T:1]
poison weapon            [100%] [L: 5 T:3]
 push                     [100%] [L:12 T:1]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 rescue                   [100%] [L:27 T:1]
 retreat                  [100%] [L:12 T:2]
 riding                   [100%] [L: 3 T:1]
 scalp                    [100%] [L:40 T:2]
 scan                     [100%] [L:31 T:1]
 scribe                   [100%] [L:39 T:1]
 short blade              [100%] [L:10 T:3]  Requires: hand-to-hand
 sling                    [100%] [L:12 T:1]
 slip                     [100%] [L: 9 T:3]
 slit                     [100%] [L:12 T:4]  Requires: hand-to-hand and backstab
 smash                    [100%] [L:40 T:3]  Requires: melee
 snare                    [100%] [L:47 T:1]
 sneak                    [100%] [L: 8 T:1]
 steal                    [100%] [L: 1 T:1]
 strangle                 [100%] [L:29 T:3]
 tame                     [100%] [L:24 T:1]
 throw                    [100%] [L:22 T:1]
 thrust                   [100%] [L:12 T:4]  Requires: hand-to-hand and longarm
 tinker                   [100%] [L: 3 T:3]
 track                    [100%] [L:27 T:1]
 trample                  [100%] [L:18 T:3]  Requires: hand-to-hand and mounted combat
trap aware               [100%] [L: 5 T:3]
 true strike              [100%] [L:48 T:3]
 woodsing               

[Prometheus]

Lol figures Virisin would use Skyrim in an forum post. If we do skills trees it needs to be done right and gives people options. But otherwise .........

Prometheus

[Virisin]

Most of our skills are the just different names for 3 basic skills: BUFF, CRIPPLE, HURT, and if you add spells in then you can add HEAL to the list of skills and spells we do and give different names for. If we were basing our system off Skyrim's I would not really focus on our own current skills and spells at all...

That's the other thing Skyrim does well, spells are just 'spell tomes' you can find or buy or trade or whatever, anyone can learn every single spell if they so choose. The only problem is the cost/benefit ratio of using spells is totally different for different players. If I put all my points into Health and Stamina over Magicka, I won't even be able to cast the high level spells whether I have them or not. And unless I get perks like 'Master Destruction Spells cost 50% less Magicka' then I'll be useless with them. The specialization of the character is totally up to the character. You can literally do whatever you like thanks to the skill tree system.

[Bane]

Kvetch is it possible for you to list all the spells also? I wouldnt mind taking a stab at breaking down our skills into a tree.

[Kvetch]

All the 4D spells along with the elemental they're part of and their delays if any.

absolve                  [100%] [L:30 T:1][Mana:41  ][spirit     ][Delay of 100 sec]
 acid arrow               [100%] [L:50 T:2][Mana:27  ][water      ]
 air elemental            [100%] [L:25 T:1][Mana:98  ][air        ][Delay of 600 sec]
 animate dead             [100%] [L:40 T:3][Mana:16  ][death      ][Delay of 120 sec]
 antidote 1               [100%] [L:34 T:1][Mana:9   ][fire       ]
 antidote 2               [100%] [L:34 T:2][Mana:18  ][fire       ]
 antidote 3               [100%] [L:34 T:4][Mana:44  ][earth      ]
 armor                    [100%] [L:25 T:1][Mana:20  ][earth      ][Delay of  30 sec]
 battle rage              [100%] [L:40 T:1][Mana:34  ][fire       ]
 bless                    [100%] [L:15 T:2][Mana:6   ][spirit     ][Delay of  20 sec]
 blindness                [100%] [L:50 T:2][Mana:41  ][light      ][Delay of  30 sec]
 burning hands            [100%] [L:30 T:1][Mana:11  ][fire       ]
 burning skull            [100%] [L:24 T:3][Mana:68  ][fire       ][Delay of   5 sec]
 call lightning           [100%] [L:32 T:2][Mana:34  ][electricity][Delay of  15 sec]
 chain lightning          [100%] [L:34 T:3][Mana:41  ][electricity][Delay of  30 sec]
 charm                    [100%] [L:30 T:3][Mana:69  ][mind       ]
 chill touch              [100%] [L: 2 T:1][Mana:13  ][ice        ]
 clone                    [100%] [L: 5 T:2][Mana:90  ][mind       ][Delay of 180 sec]
 colour spray             [100%] [L:20 T:1][Mana:20  ][light      ]
 cone of cold             [100%] [L:35 T:1][Mana:13  ][ice        ]
 confuse                  [100%] [L:10 T:1][Mana:41  ][mind       ]
 control weather          [100%] [L:20 T:4][Mana:41  ][air        ]
 corrupt armor            [100%] [L:12 T:1][Mana:41  ][earth      ]
 create food              [100%] [L:21 T:1][Mana:6   ][earth      ][Delay of   1 sec]
 create water             [100%] [L:28 T:1][Mana:6   ][water      ]
 cure blind               [100%] [L: 5 T:1][Mana:6   ][light      ]
 cure critic              [100%] [L:10 T:2][Mana:27  ][spirit     ]
 cure light               [100%] [L: 5 T:1][Mana:13  ][spirit     ]
 curse                    [100%] [L: 9 T:4][Mana:69  ][mind       ]
 darkness                 [100%] [L:21 T:1][Mana:5   ][dark       ][Delay of   1 sec]
 demonshriek              [100%] [L:32 T:4][Mana:98  ][death      ]
 detect alignment         [100%] [L:25 T:1][Mana:11  ][dark       ]
 detect invisibility      [100%] [L:15 T:1][Mana:11  ][dark       ]
 detect magic             [100%] [L:35 T:1][Mana:11  ][dark       ]
 detect poison            [100%] [L: 3 T:1][Mana:5   ][dark       ]
 dispel bubble            [100%] [L:40 T:3][Mana:69  ][spirit     ]
dispel evil              [100%] [L:30 T:2][Mana:34  ][spirit     ]
 dispel good              [100%] [L:30 T:3][Mana:28  ][fire       ]
 dispel sanctuary         [100%] [L:21 T:3][Mana:49  ][death      ]
 divine mind              [100%] [L: 5 T:2][Mana:41  ][mind       ]
 earth elemental          [100%] [L:25 T:3][Mana:83  ][earth      ][Delay of 600 sec]
 earthquake               [100%] [L:24 T:2][Mana:34  ][earth      ]
 electric blast           [100%] [L:15 T:4][Mana:174 ][electricity][Delay of 100 sec]
 embue armor              [100%] [L:30 T:2][Mana:91  ][fire       ]
 enchant weapon           [100%] [L:40 T:3][Mana:139 ][spirit     ][Delay of  30 sec]
 energy drain             [100%] [L:30 T:3][Mana:41  ][death      ]
 evil eye                 [100%] [L:40 T:3][Mana:49  ][death      ][Delay of 200 sec]
 facemelt                 [100%] [L:42 T:3][Mana:68  ][fire       ][Delay of  10 sec]
 fire elemental           [100%] [L:25 T:4][Mana:80  ][fire       ][Delay of 600 sec]
 fire shield              [100%] [L:37 T:3][Mana:34  ][fire       ]
 fireball                 [100%] [L:40 T:1][Mana:22  ][fire       ]
 flame arrow              [100%] [L:43 T:3][Mana:22  ][fire       ]
 flight                   [100%] [L: 3 T:4][Mana:49  ][air        ]
 forsee                   [100%] [L: 3 T:1][Mana:41  ][light      ]
 fortify body             [100%] [L:12 T:1][Mana:41  ][spirit     ]
fortify mind             [100%] [L: 2 T:1][Mana:41  ][mind       ]
 gate                     [100%] [L:40 T:3][Mana:69  ][mind       ][Delay of  30 sec]
 group armor              [100%] [L:20 T:3][Mana:41  ][earth      ][Delay of  20 sec]
 group heal               [100%] [L: 3 T:4][Mana:55  ][spirit     ]  Requires: heal
 group recall             [100%] [L:24 T:3][Mana:41  ][mind       ][Delay of  20 sec]  Requires: word of recall
 group shield             [100%] [L:12 T:3][Mana:57  ][air        ]  Requires: shield
 harm                     [100%] [L:30 T:1][Mana:74  ][death      ]
 haste                    [100%] [L:16 T:2][Mana:57  ][air        ][Delay of  70 sec]
 heal                     [100%] [L:32 T:3][Mana:48  ][spirit     ][Delay of   1 sec]  Requires: cure critic
 heart squeeze            [100%] [L: 7 T:4][Mana:98  ][air        ][Delay of  10 sec]
 hold person              [100%] [L:16 T:3][Mana:55  ][ice        ][Delay of 120 sec]
 holy shield              [100%] [L:22 T:2][Mana:41  ][spirit     ]
 holy shout               [100%] [L:13 T:3][Mana:62  ][spirit     ]  Requires: holy word
 holy word                [100%] [L:13 T:1][Mana:20  ][spirit     ]
 ice shield               [100%] [L:16 T:4][Mana:41  ][ice        ]
inferno                  [100%] [L:15 T:4][Mana:143 ][fire       ][Delay of  30 sec]
 infravision              [100%] [L: 3 T:1][Mana:13  ][light      ]
 invisibility             [100%] [L:32 T:2][Mana:34  ][light      ][Delay of  20 sec]
 knock                    [100%] [L:43 T:2][Mana:16  ][air        ]
 life transfer            [100%] [L: 1 T:1][Mana:20  ][spirit     ]
 lifesuck                 [100%] [L:48 T:2][Mana:98  ][death      ]
 lightning bolt           [100%] [L:37 T:3][Mana:30  ][electricity]
 locate object            [100%] [L: 6 T:3][Mana:27  ][mind       ]
 locate person            [100%] [L: 4 T:2][Mana:69  ][mind       ]
 magic bubble             [100%] [L:14 T:4][Mana:49  ][death      ]
 magic missile            [100%] [L:20 T:1][Mana:49  ][air        ]
 mana blast               [100%] [L:50 T:4][Mana:1049][spirit     ]
 mana shield              [100%] [L:10 T:1][Mana:41  ][spirit     ]
 mana transfer            [100%] [L:30 T:1][Mana:13  ][spirit     ]
 meteor shower            [100%] [L:42 T:3][Mana:65  ][air        ][Delay of  40 sec]
 midas touch              [100%] [L: 4 T:3][Mana:139 ][earth      ][Delay of  30 sec]
 mind electricity         [100%] [L: 8 T:3][Mana:27  ][electricity][Delay of 500 sec]
 mind fire                [100%] [L: 4 T:4][Mana:22  ][fire       ][Delay of 400 sec]
 mind ice                 [100%] [L:12 T:4][Mana:27  ][ice        ][Delay of 500 sec]
 mind water               [100%] [L: 8 T:3][Mana:27  ][water      ][Delay of 300 sec]
 minor identify           [100%] [L: 4 T:1][Mana:41  ][mind       ]
 mirror shield            [100%] [L: 3 T:1][Mana:41  ][light      ]
 nightmare                [100%] [L:26 T:4][Mana:41  ][mind       ]
 numb mind                [100%] [L: 1 T:4][Mana:41  ][ice        ]
 paralyze                 [100%] [L:29 T:4][Mana:90  ][ice        ][Delay of 300 sec]
 poison                   [100%] [L:40 T:1][Mana:27  ][water      ]
 poison 2                 [100%] [L:45 T:3][Mana:27  ][ice        ]
 poison 3                 [100%] [L:48 T:4][Mana:47  ][air        ]
 poison 4                 [100%] [L:51 T:4][Mana:62  ][death      ]
 protection from cold     [100%] [L:16 T:2][Mana:11  ][fire       ]
 protection from evil     [100%] [L: 2 T:1][Mana:13  ][light      ]
 protection from fire     [100%] [L: 4 T:1][Mana:13  ][water      ]
 protection from good     [100%] [L: 4 T:3][Mana:49  ][death      ]
 psi panic                [100%] [L:19 T:3][Mana:111 ][mind       ]
 recharge                 [100%] [L:43 T:1][Mana:111 ][electricity][Delay of 600 sec]
 remove alignment         [100%] [L:46 T:2][Mana:41  ][spirit     ]
 remove curse             [100%] [L: 5 T:2][Mana:34  ][spirit     ]
 sanctuary                [100%] [L:10 T:3][Mana:69  ][spirit     ][Delay of  20 sec]
 sense life               [100%] [L:41 T:1][Mana:13  ][light      ][Delay of 140 sec]
 shield                   [100%] [L: 7 T:1][Mana:32  ][air        ]
 shocking grasp           [100%] [L:31 T:1][Mana:20  ][electricity]
 sleep                    [100%] [L:12 T:1][Mana:34  ][mind       ][Delay of 180 sec]
 slowness                 [100%] [L:48 T:4][Mana:50  ][ice        ]
 soulsmash                [100%] [L:31 T:3][Mana:98  ][death      ]
 static shield            [100%] [L:20 T:1][Mana:41  ][electricity]
 steelskin                [100%] [L:48 T:3][Mana:33  ][earth      ]
 stoneskin                [100%] [L:47 T:2][Mana:20  ][earth      ]
 strength                 [100%] [L:25 T:1][Mana:55  ][earth      ]
 suffocate                [100%] [L:41 T:4][Mana:8   ][air        ][Delay of  30 sec]
 summon                   [100%] [L: 5 T:3][Mana:69  ][spirit     ][Delay of  30 sec]
 sweet dreams             [100%] [L:23 T:1][Mana:41  ][mind       ][Delay of 240 sec]
 teleport                 [100%] [L:10 T:2][Mana:69  ][mind       ]
 thorn shield             [100%] [L:13 T:2][Mana:41  ][earth      ]
 vitalize                 [100%] [L:30 T:3][Mana:49  ][air        ][Delay of   1 sec]
 wall of fire             [100%] [L:21 T:1][Mana:5   ][fire       ][Delay of   1 sec]
 wall of force            [100%] [L:21 T:1][Mana:6   ][spirit     ][Delay of   1 sec]
water elemental          [100%] [L:22 T:2][Mana:83  ][water      ][Delay of 600 sec]
 water to wine            [100%] [L:28 T:2][Mana:139 ][water      ][Delay of  30 sec]
 waterwalk                [100%] [L:15 T:3][Mana:27  ][water      ]
 weaken                   [100%] [L:17 T:2][Mana:41  ][earth      ]
 word of recall           [100%] [L: 3 T:1][Mana:13  ][mind       ]

[Bane]

@ Viri

I didnt want to clutter up esper thread with this discussion.


But I meant a perk tree.

My question is though, if something like this is implemented will we go back to using trainers instead of mike teaching them all? And I still think skills and spells will need pre req.

Also even with a perk tree, skills/spells need to be adjusted.

and as of right now I dont see something this big coming in over night thats why I was suggesting small changes on some spells. They can be used later down the road in a system like this.