Skill Tree System

[Prometheus]

My biggest concern is that right now we only have two active coders and I know for a fact I'm not going to be too useful for making new skills so it is going to fall on Molzilla to code this and with all of the bugs etc that need fixing I think we need to fix the current bugs first then we can discuss maybe adding some new skills but adding this many skills I'm going to see a whole boatload of bugs / balance fixes. The best way to work on this to me would be it to be coded and tested on a beta port and then we can see how things work out.

I think we should introduce some basics "new" skills and see how people like those then maybe add more. I can't see putting in 50 new skills without major issues. Now if we add like 1 new skills / spell for each class and see how it goes then we can work on adding more skills. I'm concerned about changing too much too quick and making in confusing for newbies and older players alike.

And what about trainers as well?

Prometheus

[Tocharaeh]

I wouldn't do the shadow magic thing only because shadow magic itself is aligned based.

ERm.. who says Shadow magic HAS to be alignment based? 

Well, if you know anything about Shadow magic, it IS evil. You can't say otehrwise. The very EMBODIMENTS of Good and Evil is Light and Darkness. These are very two different entities you're dealing with here. Shadow is evil. there is no way around it.

Not to be a dick, but instead to trying to challenge my "views" on things, I would advise actually looking into this kind of stuff. When it comes down to it, there are very clear rules and definitions that have become universal over the past 30 years of systems writing, and clarifications. I don't make this stuff up. My input isn't single system based, and it never has been. I hold a lot of knowledge in multiple systems that despite their very different worlds, and so on still abide the bare bones rules of how the cosmos work, be it fantasy, dark fantasy, or sci-fi. There are some very clear universal definitions.

-Toch

[Iwku]

I think I’m with the majority in saying that I too would love it if there were more differentiation between the classes. The skill tree idea looks great.

However, at the end of the day after all the work is done, I think we will just end up with more classes (i.e. right now there are 8 classes and the tree would make it 16 classes). I can’t see that much will really change after the addition.

Currently, every class is pretty self sufficient. Everyone has tons of money to buy tons of great potions/scrolls/wands and everyone is able to use all those things. Also at least half of the time you have partial skills from two classes as you work your way up the remort system. There is no need to rely much on anyone else.

Also, there is no conflict with anyone else. Why even have the ‘detect alignment’ spell. Who cares? Personally I stay neutral so I can use the majority of the equipment and run back to my clan hall if my alignment changes to evil to prevent any aligned equipment falling off in the middle of a fight. I stay always neutral or good which seems weird to me since I am in an evil clan. I like Asmoday’s idea of having the priest class having to chose between good and evil.

So here is what I think after having a few beers:
1)   Limit the use of scrolls and wands to appropriate classes (esper, mage, priest, etc) to increase the reliance of the non-magical classes on magical classes. Increase cost of using the healer near recall.
2)   Keep the existing 8 classes or do the tree thing, but after remorting, start fresh with a new class (no carry over skills) so each class will be pure and unique and their skills/spells might be requested by someone in another class.
3)   Either increase the cost of potions/scrolls/wands drastically or reduce the money on mobs.  There is currently no fear or cause for concern about anything because we all have more money than we know what to do with. By the way, I agree with Tocharaeh that potions weigh too much. It just creates more work.
4)   Make people be evilly aligned, good aligned or neutrally aligned when they join a clan to help encourage conflict. This would probably entail a look at the equipment stats.
5)   The pk system shouldn’t be that a 60 time remorted player can kill and full loot a 2 time remorted player. Yah, yah I know you all went through it and survived it. But considering the work it takes to fully re-equip with quest equipment, the current system isn’t worth joining. PK adds an element of conflict and excitement to the game and a reason to try role playing.

So to sum up, I’m not convinced that making more skills/spells will change much. After people try out the new skills/spells/classes and the newness of it fades, I think people will go back to sitting at recall, being afk at recall or questing/grinding/exploring by themselves. I think after the newness fades we will all just go back to the social aspect of the gossip channel and most of us do our own thing and not interact with each other in a role play sort of way. I think conflict and a real need to have other classes help you would revitalize more than new skills/spells.

PS Tier One Gypsy killing a small mouse - Backstab, watch screen scroll by, watch screen scroll by, watch screen scroll by, flee, flee, Lay still you are dead.

[Molly]

If this volunteer is up for the work, perhaps he/she can start on a bunch of other stuff in the meantime, because this change requires a lot of brainstorming before any actual coding.

Well, I agree on both points.

However:

1. The volunteer is a seasoned coder, but comparatively new to 4D.
We already have 4 coders, all of whom know 4D from a long time back. They may be more or less inactive - mostly due to RL issues - but this also varies over time. So although I agree that there are bugs and other stuff that should have higher priorities, I also think that fixing those should better be done by the normal crew, who know the game and the code intimately, than by a relative newcomer. Thotter will of course be supervising the project, as current Head Coder, but his time is more needed on other things.

Revamping the skills/spells system is a huge project, but also an isolated one. By appointing someone to deal specifically with the project, and nothing else that would detract from time and concentration, we stand a better chance of it actually being completed. And even if it isn't finished, we haven't really lost anything, because the entire development work would be carried out and playtested in a separate port, and will consequently not affect the Gameport in any way, until we feel satisfied that the new system is fully viable and represents an improvement of what we've got.

2. Sure, the ideas need a lot of brainstorming before they can be formed into a viable system, and we definitlely count on a lot of input from all our players - old and new - throughout the entire development period.
I have hopes that we can find a system that builds on our current Classes, with just a different approach to the choices of developing your char, (a bit along the lines that Toch sketched in his post), by using skill trees. If managed the right way, we can create a system that doesn't mean a total upheaval of what we've got, just an improvement, to make it more interesting and varied.

The brainstorming has already started. A small development group has been formed and will continously post on the Forum as the project develops. And we hope there will be a continuous response along the road, from all players, old and new.

All ideas and other input are welcome. Criticism and fears as well.
We're not going to implement anything, until and unless we feel secure about it really being an improvement.
But here's a chance for you all to make an impact on your game.

[Tocharaeh]

Currently, every class is pretty self sufficient. Everyone has tons of money to buy tons of great potions/scrolls/wands and everyone is able to use all those things. Also at least half of the time you have partial skills from two classes as you work your way up the remort system. There is no need to rely much on anyone else.

Yup, pretty self sufficiant, but what we're looking for is more specialization so as to draw people. What happenes is that we bring people to instead of a "stock system" that's very bare bones to something that mudders/gamers generally understand.

5)   The pk system shouldn’t be that a 60 time remorted player can kill and full loot a 2 time remorted player. Yah, yah I know you all went through it and survived it. But considering the work it takes to fully re-equip with quest equipment, the current system isn’t worth joining. PK adds an element of conflict and excitement to the game and a reason to try role playing.

That is going to be the most difficult change that will probably never happen. The reason being is that dmg, and HP are way out of whack in a lot of sense. Ideas are being brought up about this in the future as to creating an rememdy...but don't hold your breath. The split second PK battles have been with 4D since their birth...so very hard to change/fix

2)   Keep the existing 8 classes or do the tree thing, but after remorting, start fresh with a new class (no carry over skills) so each class will be pure and unique and their skills/spells might be requested by someone in another class.

This is the old code system. You just remort, change classes, rmeort, change classes, and so on. no tiers just remorts. We can't try and force people to rely on each other again. Back then you could, but it was a different world of gaming. Everquest was just coming out, and so on. We were a simplier folk!

[Xeriuth]

I am still working on everything and when i have time I shall make a pretty large sized post explaining what will be going down, but I could use some input!
My idea roughly involves, keeping the tier system, and the four original classes, but instead of progressing into the same class you kind of essentially merge with another class to create a new one, it's more like a tree.
Ex. Tier 1 is the  original classes: Hunter, Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Gypsy, Esper, Mage, Priest
     Tier 2 is a merge of any combination: Warrior + Hunter = Savage where Savage would have many of the skills of both classes from tier 1 and some unique sets. From Tier 2 to 3, savage could then branch to a more. Where Tier 4 could just simply be a master of that Tier 3 class. Savage could lead to Barbarian and Viking, which leads to Barbarian Tier4 which is the mastered class of that.

Desirably at Tier 4 an individual can remort back to Tier 1 and work their way up again, exact stipulations can be worked on. Also with remorting the class that you mastered can be saved, and eventually you could master many classes, maybe small mastery bonuses? small because there may be a lot of tier 3 possibilities. 
Although it looks like we are adding tons of classes we are just simply condensing skillsets to make them all more unique, and of course with new names to add a little flare. On top of condensing skillsets new skills for the classes, maybe 1-3 unique skills  specific for the Tier 3 classes?

Here's my current listing of combination with names...

W + H = Savage
W + R = Swordsman
W + T = Bandit
W + G = Martial Artist
W + E = Mesmer
W + M = War Mage
W + P = Warrior Monk

H + w = Savage
H + R = Tracker
H + T = Assassin
H + G = Pathfinder
H + E = Tamer
H + M = Necromancer
H + P = Shaman

R + H = Tracker
R + w = Swordsman
R + T = Pirate
R + G = Cowboy
R + E = Horseman
R + M = Padawan
R + P = Druid

T + H = Assassin
T + R = Pirate
T + w = Bandit
T + G = Burgular
T + E = Trickster
T + M = Tempest
T + P = Crusader

G + H = Pathfinder
G + R = Cowboy
G + T = Burgular
G + W = Martial Artist
G + E = Illusionist
G + M = Wizard
G + P = Templar

E + H = Tamer
E + R = Horseman
E + T = Trickster
E + G = Illusionist
E + W = Mesmer
E + M = Conjurer
E + P = Monk

M + H = Necromancer
M + R = Padawan
M + T = Tempest
M + G = Wizard
M + E = Conjurer
M + W = War Mage
M + P = Cleric

P + H = Shaman
P + R = Druid
P + T = Crusader
P + G = Templar
P + E = Monk
P + M = Cleric
P + W = Warrior Monk

Many are redundant, like W + P and P + W but I put my chart typed out there. And of course since combining the two classes you arent going to double up with the same class, but maybe we'd want to allow that?
Comments, questions, concerns? A suggestion for this would be to have classes on who by like WarPri WaPr, something like that instead of having to know every single class, would make things simpler and would then just need helpfiles explaining the combination of the classes.
If anyone disagrees with what I did, that's fine. I think the idea has merit, many of the names could be reworked, and the idea tweaked.
But to top it off, here is a compilation of names of potential classes to rework into T2  or T3 as a continuation of some already listed: Beastmaster, Dragonmaster, Archer, Paladin, Cavalier, Barbarian, Knight, Jedi, Dark-Jedi, Sith, Jouster, Trapper, Cutpurse, Crook, Troubadour, Minstrel, Rock Star, Bard, Performer, Dancer, Juggler, Acrobat, Mind Reader, Pyromancer, Hydromancer, Magus, Magician. Sooo any ideas and all ideas etc would be appreciated. I can further develop this idea and add lots more information. Let the brainstorming begin!?!?

[Kvetch]

I hate posting another mud's website, but maybe looking at this link would help.  Dreamsmud is a mud I played on for a while before coming to 4Dimensions.  At the end, I left because they didn't need builders and I needed a place to ply my trade (or something like that).  At the end you end up being level 150 but every 50 levels you get to choose which "path" you want to follow (if I'm remembering right - it has been a few years).

http://www.dreamsmud.com/classes.htm

If nothing else, it may help someone to think of names or ideas for this thread.  Look at it or choose to ignore it as you wish.

[Xeriuth]

Psionicist Seer Mindbender Mercenary Curate that's about all the new class suggestions from Kvetch's site I got.

[Xeriuth]

Avatar, Enchanter, Witch, Warlock, Disc Jockey, Jungalier.. just a few from one of Tocharaeh's post.
and a few more from me,
Captain, Medic, Spy, Scout, Sniper, Infantry, Demonologist, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, Loremaster, Blackguard, Archemage, Duelist, Hierophant, Mystic, Lifedrinker, Soul Eater, Diabolist, Oracle, Liberator, Soldier, Pyrokineticist, slayer, Doomdreamer, Explorer, Vigilante, Virtuoso, Ghostwalker, Gladiator, Ninja, Samurai, Shinobi, Ravager, Avenger, Bladesinger, Wayfarer, Fatespinner, Champion, Apostle, Initiate, Sentinel, Skylord, Animal Lord, Streetfighter, Paragnostic, Exorcist, Blighter, Liberator, Saint, Executioner etc. More later when i have more time!

[Prometheus]

*heads starts to spin like crazy on Xeriuth's post*

Prometheus

[Estidn]

I kinda hate to burst the bubble on the idea but, while I do agree the current system needs work. I do not think it should be completely scrapped. I think in terms of getting players to our mud we need to focus on our strong point, which never has been our amazing code. I remember what drew me to 4d was the amazing zones and the (mostly) friendliness of the people that played here. I'll also point out that it seems that the player base has picked up significantly since grouping was brought back. I agree with Riley that 4d used to be a game for the casual gamer. And which direction do we want to take the mud in. That for the die hard gamers, or for the casual gamer who can't spend a redic amount of time online. But, do realize there are more casual gamers than there are die hard. I just feel that we could separate the classes more as they are now. Or like with what Toch said. Make some of them subclasses. In the end I just feel that our pbase will benefit more from us focusing on our zones instead of our code. It just seems that with every change in the code it takes a little away from zones. I could be completely wrong but please tear this apart as you feel fit.
Estidn

[horus]

What most of you dont realise is, you are totally totally spoilt by the great zones and great scripts that set 4d apart from most muds, and what that did was hide the flaws this code has. Not only is the code a mess, but the combat system is one of the most basic I have ever come across - I can say with confidence that the current combat system is almost as basic as the original diku code.

What we want to achieve is to move the code to at least be worthy of the zones that are in 4d, and have a combat system that is more evolved and fun to play with. The changes made to the combat system will reflect the current zones, so that anything that is implemented will not require any zone modification, except perhaps to add variety to the zones to reflect the code changes.

[Prometheus]

Post to remind people to input input and INPUT more!

Prometheus.

[Estidn]

   Pfft Kitolani, once again I couldn't agree with you more. Why implement a huge change into the game when what we have can be fixed. Molly is right about traditions being a huge part of our game. Why throw the game out of balance again after it's just starting to get balanced again. I remember when tiers were first implemented and about a year and a half after that I could level Estidn with chill touch in dino's and they'd hit me maybe once a fight. The simple fact is the mud still isn't completely balanced from a system that was implemented years ago.
    The fact is we can set up classes so that they're different. You can have warriors doing 7000 damage in the time it takes a thief to do 1000 damage seven times. Skills can be reworked. But what you're asking for is something that can be done with a lot less impact on the mud. Thieves will never be able to truly thieves that sneak around and pick locks and the such. Our quests and zones won't allow that. Unless of course you want it so you can simply pick every lock in the covent. We can make this work with the classes we have instead of adding 60 more options and splitting them in two. Thief can be a dodger and Ranger a damage dealer. Warrior - a tank with huge damage but slow, Hunter able to set traps. Traps are easy to code and can be effective with ranged weapons. Set a trap in a room then fire an arrow or something, could be set up. Gypsy in my opinion is what it has always been and should be.  Mage, should be damage spells, maybe higher damage less often. Priest, I think is fine or highly nerf the damage they can do. Esper, I alway thought could be a awesome class. Confusing, blinding, all the aliments possible. Then they could use elementals for damage and have theirs sucks.

Like I said before. 4d works because of our zones. Every newbie who logs on is taken back by how well they're written.

Theirs my view for ya, Horus, again

[Tocharaeh]

I think you guys have missed the point entirely.

The skill tree system WILL in fact work with the way our zones are set up. The problem here is that the class system we have are so "slapped together" that it is embarrassing. 4D put all of their effort into building wonderful zones, and not once did they ever truly put any thought into our classes. I can even bet that their convo went a lot like this:

"Hey I have an idea"
"What?"
"Let's change the old fighting system, and add tiers to them."
"What is the point of that?"
"So it makes us APPEAR legit"
"Oh, not a bad idea. We are out of date.."
"Oh, and let's add a crap ton fo spells that really wont matter"
"Why?"
"Because it looks cool, and wastes peoples practice sessions"
"Sounds good to me, I love wasting their practice sessions!"
"One more thing."
"Hmm?"
"Lets add GM, and then gimp the hell out of it later just to mess with everyone, and piss off the ones who went through all of taht trouble to do it."
"Great!"

And what really makes me mad is the use of pick lock. You can't use it. Everything AND it's mother is !pick. Stop putting in skills that wont be used. There is no reason for it.

Point is is taht we have our classes which were thrown together, and never truly balanced. Ranger has YET to every truly be worked on. They figured "Oh, ranger can wield short and long weapons without pentalty, thats enough for him", yet do you SEE any rangers doing it? No, because dual wielding is a waste of time. The only reason to even level it up is for the mastery XP bonus...that's it.

The skill tree system has been deeply thought out, and planned. Every single player will have a niche in 4D that makes them not ONLY an asset to themselves, but to everyone else. The impact on the PBase would only go as far as you typing in a simple command to convert over from the shitty system to one that actually works. No Pwipe. And Molly has suggested that people get some sort of compensation for their efforts in the past system. That sounds pretty fair to me, in fact it is down right generous. Not only would you get a GREAT system, but also compensation. Can't complain much there!

The system is great, and the classes are wonderful. Gypsy has some great class depth now, as to many others.

-Tochie
back from midterms