Revamping artifact system

[Jaros]

What?  I don't understand where you're coming from on this.

You think new players don't have enough to work out already?  You think we're asking that artefacts be downgraded for them?  You think oldbies aren't important?  What??

I don't follow.

[Asmodeus]

Now that timers actually work and things crumble when they're supposed to, that fixes part of the problem.  But there are still artis on people who are never going to log in and have their equipment crumble, which causes a problem.  Unless you don't have to be online for them to crumble, in which case, ignore anything after sentence 1.  Hell, you can probably just ignore this post all together, I'm sick and half asleep while I'm writing this.

[Diandra]

Yay, I still have the ability to confuzzle someone. 

Jaros this thread started by Loria/Kvetch who wanted to 4d-world to know when an arti came available in the game. This way the (new) players (no matter how long they have played) knows: oh I can go look for an arti.

So far that part.

Half way this thread someone (well you actually following Xeriuth's poll) asked for the timers on arti's to be removed. Then someone else mentioned to remove the maxload and whatnot also.

If this happens (the removing of all restrictions) then in my eyes the arti's just become like any other item ingame but it has just some higher stats than the normal equipment. So to me that is downgrading them to normal eq. In your eyes it means: yes! they're available all the time, 'no' restrictions at all, so you may consider it upgrading.

And the second part has nothing to do with the first part.

So hopefully this clarifies a bit what I meant.

As for the rest, even if he is tired and sick (hope you feel better soon Asmo), Asmodeus hit the nail actually.

[Jaros]

Stop winking at me, it's creeping me out.

I still don't see what you're adding to this thread.

[horus]

Your point being, Diandra? You are worried artifacts might become normal eq because we remove timers and max_loads?

Lets look at facts - I can get a silver-topped cane, gold waist watch, gold brow ring, and probably 20 of the best eq on this mud within an hour or two, some in ten mins (like the Robin's Dagger). And yet, these arent max_loaded, nor are they timered.

It will take me sometimes up to several weeks of constant killing to get one artifact. And how easy do you think it is to kill Voltron? I wouldnt call spending a few hours to kill him fun. All so these items can disappear in a very short period of time, so that we have to do it again and again?

What is the point of us doing the same shit again and again so that we can have our eq back?

[Kvetch]

If we make it so there are no maxloads on artifacts so everyone is running around with a 15d15 badaxe of slaying, does that mean I can up the damage a level 50 mob does and its hitpoints so it balances the mob compared to what the normal mortals are wielding?  Artifacts are really supposed to be unique items that not everyone can have - hence why they're called artifacts.  I do understand why players wouldn't want maxloads ("they have it so I want to have it now") or timers ("if it crumbles someone else may be able to get it before I'm able to get it back - that's not fair").  I think a reason to have timers is to give everyone a chance to have the item.  If you really like that item then yes, you'll have to go get it again, if you're not willing to do that then maybe you didn't like that item as much as you thought you did.  To go with what Di said, if there are no timers or max loads then, yes, they are just another piece of "normal" eq that is only more difficult to get that everyone can have at the same time.  What's the fun in that?

[Jaros]

Can we hear an actual player argue against removing timers from arti's instead of just IMMs?  Otherwise I consider the argument void.

[Kvetch]

Why the hell would any player (other than possibly a newbie that realizes unless there are timers there is no way they will ever get the "badaxe of 15d15" because they are all taken by oldbies) want to have timers on items?  I'll admit that if I plkayed and had all of the "badaxe of 15d15's" and "amor of you can't touch this", I wouldn't want to have timers either.  But just because as a player I wouldn't want it, doesn't mean that as an IMM I don't see the reason for it. 

Or, maybe I should put it another way, what if we took off timers and then pwhiped so everyone has a "fair shot" of getting the artifacts.  But wait.. Let me also let everyone else play for a week before you have your shot at getting any artifact. Would you still be so keen on not having timers then?

[Jason Orsini]

Diandra is utterly wrong, 118 100 told me so.

[Once]

I think everyone is arguing about the wrong problem here. We're not dealing with the problem of  "Should timers be removed from artifacts".  We're dealing with the problem of "How do we make artifacts a more interesting and usable system, because currently it isn't."


For what it's worth, I agree that in the current system removing the element of a timer and max load to artifacts would make them indistinguishable from a normal item. There may be something that makes them more special with regards to the quests you have to complete or the mobs you have to kill to gain the artifact, but beyond that they actually would be a normal item. That's not really negative or positive, it's just what making a change like that would do.


I think however, that this argument over timers is distracting us from the real goal. How do we make artifacts more engaging for "mid range" players who are currently for the most part cut out of artifacts because of the current QIC system's maxloads? I think one step forward in that regard is to start talking about what a proper artifacts system should be. What would make artifacts cool? Don't focus on the exact system, but the "higher level" vision of what artifacts should be. What is their purpose? Why would you bother getting an artifact as a player? Why should the game even have artifacts as a system?


Once we get some answers to those questions we'll be on our way to actually being able to build a proper design and then from there steps away from implementing it.

[Kvetch]

eek... don't tell anyone I said this but... I agree with Once.

[Virisin]

Once upon a time artifacts were held dear to everyone's hearts. I saw the Golden Horns of the Sun-Oxen sell for over a gold token once. That wasn't surprising, that was because artifacts were beloved. Then timers were added and the stats were nerfed and from that point on, no one gave two shits about artifacts.

So if we remove timers and give them better stats again and maybe limit players from wearing more than 3 at a time... We're making them just like boring normal equipment again?

I don't understand where you're coming from here Kvetch or Diandra.

Also what is this 15d15 badass axe of slaying you keep referring to Kvetch? There are no artifacts near that good.

[Virisin]

Or, maybe I should put it another way, what if we took off timers and then pwhiped so everyone has a "fair shot" of getting the artifacts.  But wait.. Let me also let everyone else play for a week before you have your shot at getting any artifact. Would you still be so keen on not having timers then?

Yes this is legitimately a good idea. Pwipe would do wonders.

[Tor]

I think Once is on the best track I've seen here.

It may just be my not being a good player, having not heard anything that has pointed me towards where artifacts are located, or some combination of both. But I've spent considerable time in some of the zones mentioned earlier in this thread and not found anything I recognized as an artifact. I was once given one, and was able to use it briefly, until the bug report that it could be used by someone that hadn't earned it was acted upon. Then I promptly found myself dead the next time I brought it into play, heck of a reward for being a guinea pig. 

It would be my guess that some of the mobs that drop these artifacts have been beat down to near death and then handed over to a buddy to finish off. Heck, I helped someone kill Greenie so they could wear the dragon legs, way back. Admittedly not as efficiently and with the finesse of the big boys would.

In the past I've been told of certain players having stockpiles of items that have been removed from the game, not artifacts, but determined to be overpowered and removed or changed. If this was or is the case, then I'm sure that some players would try to limit the supply by insuring a max load situation. Especially in a PK situation, I'd only want my allies to have the power pieces.

While I'd like to have the

"badaxe of 15d15's" and "amor of you can't touch this"

and would not want them to disappear, especially in the middle of a battle, with no warning.

Don't these artifacts as is, contribute to the imbalance and "perfect set of equipment" complained of in another thread? And not having timers on them would just continue this. I didn't see any complaints of timers when a few knew that as long as they wore, held or wielded the item it didn't crumble or dissolve. 

I have a problem with a one time announcement that an artifact unless it was a note to all, and had a date, time stamp. Otherwise people not online at the moment of the announcement would not know, and if they read the announcement several days later there probably would be little sense in hunting it. If they are like me they wouldn't know where to start hunting anyway.

After a pwipe, unless the artifacts are moved around, wouldn't the same players would have them again? So why bother.

Once's idea makes the most sense to me. That's a bit hard to say. 

Okay, that's my opinion, now shoot it apart.

[Jaros]

Artifacts would be cool if they were worth having, worth sharing and worth selling/buying.

That means removing timers and making them powerful.

I also think restricting how many a player can wear would be a good idea, to free up their extras to be shared with friends or sold.

A one time notification that 'An artifact has loaded' could be fun, so if you're lucky enough to be on at the time you can race to track it down.