To GM or not to GM

[Estidn]

I personally don't care either way but seems to be a lot of debating. Might as well post reason why you want it and reasons why you don't want it here as well.

[Fizban]

It's overpowering, it also takes away the distinction between classes and the purpose of them and makes everyone be the same class or two that has great tier 3 and 4 skills because they get the skills from all tier 2 classes anyways so whereas one class might be great because of its tier 2 skills it'll never be used by GM's.

[Virisin]

Basically what Fiz said.

It makes an otherwise potentially great tier system into a boring, 'let's all be the same' system. It basically makes us a classles system with classes. I see more potential for fun, and more indepth character design if GM were to be removed.

[erwin]

GM helps to kill high level mobs convieniently.

Put it this way, a T4L50 thief (non GM) can kill mobs up to T4L50 easily, with just regular combat (with backstab, encircle).

However, the thief faces problems with higher level mobs, in the sense that other skills 'poison weapon' don't work on them, immune to backstab, etc. Encircle helps, but that's the only skill which does so.

So I GM for buffs, and cure critic, which makes it easier for me to kill such mobs. If there wasn't GM, I'd probably go for either hunter or priest, just because the other classes unique skills/spells tend to not work on higher level mobs who seem to be immune to them.

On second thought, how about having skills like tinker, manipulate, poison weapon, etc, limited to the person who performs the skill. Eg, if I tinker a weapon, I should be the only one that can wield it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from just levelling a T4L50 (class), that can do that, and then pass a weapon to their main character?

[Fizban]

Hmm, curious checking the level of the highest level mobs I've seen Fizban manage to take.  Tier 4 Level 65

[Estidn]

How about a fifth tier with better skills/spells only unlockable after you've went through all the other classes?

[Virisin]

Erwin is right, if we remove GM, we need to stop making all the mobs - !disarm, !sleep, !poison, !DEATH . Etc. That just suits GM's. And removes even more class differentiation.

On second thought, how about having skills like tinker, manipulate, poison weapon, etc, limited to the person who performs the skill. Eg, if I tinker a weapon, I should be the only one that can wield it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from just levelling a T4L50 (class), that can do that, and then pass a weapon to their main character?

The thing with this is, it removes some economics from the game. But.. We don't seem to have much anyway with inflation, and timers and the like so. I agree.

I don't agree with a tier 5 though, it's unneccessary. Removing GM and having 4 good tiers so you can either specialise or multiclass would be better.

[Iwku]

I voted yes that I would prefer GM be removed.

I love being a melee class.  That's all I know and all I want to be.  I hate that all the time and money I spend practicing skills just disappears when I have to go to another class.  I would prefer to specialize.  I am apprehensive about having to go through all the magic classes, which I know nothing about, just to end up a melee class.

There are a few good things I see in GM. One is what I saw from Erwin in the Galdiator arena -priests can kick ass and are cool.  I would never have guessed that. Another reason is that having to go through all the classses gives a better personal understanding of weakness and strengths of all the classes - which is good.

I would prefer differentiation based on skills.  Although there is such secrecy and fear of giving out quest information or being a part of helping in quests, that I can't ever see someone asking a thief to group and help pick a lock even if classes were differentiated.

Anyway, yes was my answer to the poll question. However, I don't know anything about what GM means to really make an informative decsison.

[Molly]

I am no big fan of GM either, so I voted yes too.
Mainly because I like the variety that classes give, and since GM seems a bit overpowered to me.
(Of course the recent KOTM showed that GM isn't everything, fighting skills do still count). 

Anyhow, I think you should get SOME reward after you run through all classes, but not nearly as large as present.

Perhaps a couple of extra skills/spells, and perhaps you should be able to choose from which class you want them? Or even choose which extra skills/spells you want (probably with some exceptions)?

This is just out of the top of my head, I haven't really thought through it. 
So maybe the bonus suggestions had better come from the experienced players.

[Virisin]

Anyhow, I think you should get SOME reward after you run through all classes, but not nearly as large as present.

Perhaps a couple of extra skills/spells, and perhaps you should be able to choose from which class you want them? Or even choose which extra skills/spells you want (probably with some exceptions)?

This is just out of the top of my head, I haven't really thought through it. 
So maybe the bonus suggestions had better come from the experienced players.

*coughterribleideacough*

That would just be a slightly weaker GM.. It'd mean everyone would be striving for it, more levelling, more remorting.. Same old, same old.

I think that we should have the option of specialising in a class (getting to tier 4) or multi-classing (doing 4 different tier 1 classes). Or even trying a 2-2 style with 2 tiers of 2 different classes, or a 3-1; same again. And that all of these option could make for an equally strong player in different ways.

Currently, we do potentially have the option to do this, but they're not equal at all. Not in the time and effort to achieve, nor the strength  of the options at the end. And everyone just shoots for GM anyway.

What I don't want to see, are rewards for mindless levelling further than is necessary to make your character the way you like it.

There's a lot more to it, but unless we get a descision to start working on the change.. I'll leave it at that for now.

[erwin]

I think one of the steps to move away from a GM culture would be to make mobs not have any immunities, save for cases in which it makes sense. Makes sense as in there should be an RP reason why a mob should be immune to certain skills/spells, rather than "because the mob is high level / a quest mob"

Of course, if this happens, there are some things that has to be set, eg.

-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.
-Directional spells should work on all mobs, BUT the mob should be able to track them. (Perhaps turn un-aggro if aggressive, and maybe return to its lair if not pursued by the player after a set amount of time.)


Because if you think about it, there are 8 different classes, and each class should have his (or her) unique way in vanquishing the obstacles in their path, possibly should be something like the below.

Priest - Heal spells, defensive spells, minor damage spells
Mage - Offensive status spells, offensive spells
Esper - Defensive status spells, Offensive status spells, Offensive spells
Thief - Steal, (if failure) Poison Weapon
Gypsy - Steal, (if failure), spells, tinkered weapons
Ranger - Not much unfortunately..Kick? Maybe upgrade bow/crossbow for it to be viable?
Hunter - Direct damage in combat, cure crit, behead
Warrior - Direct damage in combat, bash, cleave

Hmm, maybe meld pick lock and knock together into one skill/spell too. While 'pick lock' is the standard fare skill for rogue classes, it seems to have little importance here, because many doors are unpickable. Knock has the same restrictions as pick lock, but has the additional fact that it opens all openable doors, which is a rather convenient door opener for the lazy

[Fizban]

-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.

That there's actually the only part I disagree with, as long as the mob attacks on a failed steal attempt i don't see any reason to limit any more than you'd limit it to how many times a warrior could kill the mob.

[kitolani]

I think that we should have the option of specialising in a class (getting to tier 4) or multi-classing (doing 4 different tier 1 classes). Or even trying a 2-2 style with 2 tiers of 2 different classes, or a 3-1; same again. And that all of these option could make for an equally strong player in different ways.

When I had initially come to 4d, I was under the impression that the remort system worked in this fashion, and that theoretically I could mold a unique character by either jumping from one class to another to gather a variety of low tier skills/spells, or stick with one class and grind it through to tier 4 for that classes' particular fancy tricks. As it stands, I have little to no interest in making an effort to attain GM...not because I don't care for leveling in the least, but because ...well yeah. Mostly because I hate leveling. It seems like a terrible waste of energy to go through every class, and like Virisin said, end up being all the same.

Ranger - Not much unfortunately..Kick? Maybe upgrade bow/crossbow for it to be viable?

Indeed. I've been playing with bows/crossbows/guns a lot lately,both for RP and for fun. However, outside of those two occasions I find they are damn near useless...

[erwin]

-Mobs can only be stolen from once, period. If you succeed in stealing the Fabulous and Mighty Dragon Slaying Sword from the level 150 Balrog in the first try, then you can keep it. If not, you have to kill it.

That there's actually the only part I disagree with, as long as the mob attacks on a failed steal attempt i don't see any reason to limit any more than you'd limit it to how many times a warrior could kill the mob.

But where would the supposed 'difficulty' be if such mobs can be stolen again repeatedly. Perhaps put a wait flag on it for 1-2 mud hours before you can steal again. There has to be a balance certainly between choosing to steal (quest) items and to kill the mob. Or maybe lag the person for a few rounds after stealing, so that rogue classes aren't chosen just because 'they can steal and avoid combat'.

                                                         

[Fizban]

If a failed steal attempt initiates combat there is no safety. Also the item would load on the mob, to steal more than one of the item the mob would still need to be killed eventually. Also why would you pick thief because they can avoid combat? That might get you the piece of eq, but last I checked experience points were deducted and not rewarded to the player when they fled from combat.