4Dimensions Forum
General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Topic started by: erwin on May 23, 2008, 02:50:54 am
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I think creating a new thread here for more suggestions of trainers would be easier, and not clutter up the News and Annoucements thread.
I'd believe however, it would be easier to go through zones one by one to pick out trainers, instead of going over spells/skills one by one to pick out trainers. Eg, a Priest in a random zone should be able to teach a curative spell, ICwise, but it seems that only a select few are able to do so.
I'm hoping that eventually all ICly mobs are able to teach some form of skill/spell, though I suspect that would take a lot of work from the imms to do so, so it's best to make do with what we can. While it is true that there will be a lot of redundancy, say, maybe 10-20 mobs teaching the same skill/spell, it would seem more 'realistic', and give players less of the feel that trainers have been planted arbitarily in the game.
Ideally, everyone should pick a favourite zone, comb through it for all mobs, and give suggestions to what skills/spells they teach. So for those who level in VE for example, can help by giving good suggestions as to what skills/spells the VE mobs can teach...
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A list of all the zones. I'll bold those which I've scouted through (as a reminder to myself mostly), and colour zones green/red for those which I can't think of any mobs inside to be trainers. Of course, everyone else can participate and throw out ideas as well :)
4D Central and Travel Agency
4D school
Stone Age I
Robber Baron Castle I
Dry Gulch
Android Factory
Battle Field
The Chicken Casino
The Newbie Arena
Realms of the Traders (Olde Yorke)
Old Carthage
Prehistoric Forest
Stone Age II
Crete
Labyrinth of Knossos
Greek Archipelago
Aegean Sea
Northwest Cyklades
Southeast Cyklades
Realms of Thetis
West Mediterranean Sea
The Odyssey
The River Nile
The Egyptian Desert
Temple of Hatshepsut
Lower Egypt
The Valley Of Kings
The Realms of Hades
The Greek Mainland
Greek Cities I
Mediterranean Sea
Carthage Bay
Aegean Islands
Ali Baba's Cave
Arabian Desert
The Land of Punt
Upper Nile
The Desert of Wawat
The Land of Kush
Olde Yorke
Tournament Place
Robber Baron Castle II
Sherwood Forest
Viking ship
Pirate galley
Convent and nunnery
Camelot
Castle of Mirkheim
Elven Forest
Metropolis of the elves
Sanctuary Haze
Tower of Rapunzel
Troll Forest
Osten Ard
Ice Palace
Mount Winter
The Temple of the Damned
Dun-Shivaar
The Serf Village
The Township of Odessin
The Lostlands
Fenizia
A Rip in Time
Mother Goose
The Midlands
Dragon Island
Enchanted Lands
City Of the Tulipek
Mount Kuromeru
The Citadel of Thandar
The Town of Ta-Beneth
The Dragon Caves
The Royal Forest
The NightDragon Realms
Dodge City
The Range
Legend
The Gold Mine
Hole In The Wall
The Prairie
Tombstone
The Dirt Farm
Westward Ho!
Llano Estacado
Dry Gulch II
Buffalo Bills's Circus
The Racecourse
The Mine
The Ranch
Fort Sutter and Mills
Sutter's Mines
The California Trails
San Francisco Harbour
Victorian England
Future Golf Course
Android Punk Concert
Star Wars
Planet Endor
Planet Dagobah
Planet Tattooine
Planet Hoth
Death Star
Necromunda II
Spaceship Titanic
Little Italy
Queltorian Sector
The Space Harbour
Jurassic Park
Pleasure Planet
New Goznemia
Down Under
Terramort
The Outback
Outer Space Grid
Corellian Sector Grid
Earth Atmosphere Grid
Alpha Centauri Grid
Alpha Centauri Planets
Planet Lovenbroy
Planet Slunch
Planet Yalc
Planet Yudore
Asteroid 95739-A
Planet Poon
Quixotica
Cosmo Canyon
The Game Grid
Jurassic Ocean
Planet Reptilia
The Orbiter
The Dark Planet
The Planet Whotvar
Whotvar II
The Spaceport Mall
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Here are some suggestions for some Recall Zones.
<Note from Kvetch: Blue = done, red = aggro so not done, green = question see my post>
4D Central
Bart - drunk
Healer - cure light, cure blind, prot evil, manifest
Road Guard - melee, kick
Virisin - mind spam, cult personality
4D school
squire - kick, melee, mount, riding
cook - filet
Bart - drunk
cowboy -firearm, mount, riding
Mr Smith the gunsmith - firearm
barmaid - drunk
doc holiday - cure light, cure blind
captain - firearm, melee
commanding officer - firearm, melee
gym master - melee, hand to hand
apollo - minor identify (god of wisdom), forsee
Stone Age I
Neanderthal woman - filet
Neanderthal man/Cro Magnon Man/leader - forage
Joje/Neanderthal child - hide
Robber Baron Castle I
Cook - filet
Dry Gulch
Jim - drunk
Big Ben - hand to hand, melee
cowboy - firearm, mount, riding
Sheriff - firearm
Deputy Sheriff - firearm
Android Factory
galactic service guard - kick, melee
The Newbie Arena
Starsoul the Hunter - hide/ forage / sling
Training officer - firearm
Major - firearm
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Animate Dead?
Ghost Traveller
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That wasnt a suggestion by the way, the spell is missing from the list.
Demonshreak is also missing fromt he list.
Add electric blast to the missing list.
Ice Shield
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The list is missing tier 3 and 4.. Don't point out each and every tier 3 and 4 skill/spell that's not there. I imagine Molly will post what she will of those lists when she gets time.
That's a great list Erwin, it should give the newbie areas some more atmosphere when all the IC mobs are teaching IC skills/spells.
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I posted the Tier 3 and 4 skills/spells in a reply to the first post, since the buffer couldn't handle the entire list.
Are there really skills missing from the list?
I'm too tired to check now, but I'm pretty sure Demonshriek was in my list at least.
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No, he just didn't realise there were NO tier 3 or 4 spells/skills up yet.. :P
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Old Egypt (including the two temples down the Nile)
Royal Guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
Soldier - melee / rescue
Ramose the priest - cure light / cure blind
Roju the physician - cure light / fortify body
Peasant Woman - Bless
Horus - dispel evil / mind fire (sun god)
Isis Priestess - create food / absolve
Sobek Priest - Battle rage / strength
Valley of the Kings
Old Mother - Minor identify
Embalmer - Steal / Sense Life
Egyptian Desert
Pekharu - antidote 1 / antidote 2
Old man - confuse
Royal Guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
Hatshesput's Temple
Temple Guard - melee / kick / advanced melee
Thoth - detect magic
Hatshepsut's ka - Detect align
Ptah - Fortify Mind
Khabekhnet - cure light / cure critic
Neferura's ka - dodge
Old Carthage
Mike Donovan / Greta Hummerlein - Locate object
Carthage Bay
Marie le Farge - Locate Object
Camp Guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
Ali Baba's Cave
Sentry Guard - melee / hand to hand
Thief - steal / sneak
Cook - Filet
Ali Baba - melee / steal / kick
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I love you Erwin.
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You're just not my type :(
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Wow. Erwin's sure been busy.
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Wow. Erwin's sure been busy.
Wanna have a go at adding them in your spare time, Kvetch?
If you do, just mark the lists in this thread blue or red when finished.
And how about adding electric blast and mind electricity on R2D2?
By the way, if anyone thinks we should NOT add these new trainers, speak now or forever be silent!
I would've highlighted this in blue but it already was so I can only say: DONE!
Kvetchy
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I'm not sure someone in spaceport mall should get locate object.. It's a kinda super easy zone and a tier 3 spell.
I think I'll do a list for Outback later tonight.
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Wanna have a go at adding them in your spare time, Kvetch?
If you do, just mark the lists in this thread blue or red when finished.
And how about adding electric blast and mind electricity on R2D2?
*sigh* I knew I should've kept my mouth shut... ;)
Actually though, I'd be happy to do this, but I think I'll give people more time to shift through all of Erwin's ideas and point out things like Viri did. I've got 3 days off this week *woot* I should be able to do something on this.
Kvetchy
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I'm not sure someone in spaceport mall should get locate object.. It's a kinda super easy zone and a tier 3 spell.
That's true...though the original mob for locate object *seems* rather easy to get to. Trying to match the difficulty. And who really goes to the space port mall? :p
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Here is the list of trainers of Future Zones (sans Outback and Outer Space Grid, which Virisin will do).
<Note: Means Done, Means Aggro, not done Means there's a question, see another post, Means I can't find the dang mob. I need help because the mob listed here doesn't show up on anything I can look for.
Whotvar
Krelloc/Basilisk - charge or trample
Grenco - flight
an old ghost - bless
Whotvar II
Dr Bitters - Embue Armor / (maybe recharge, with his machines)
Space Captain - Firearm / melee / retreat / rescue
Mrs Bitters - water to wine / antidote 1 (she is an amateur alchemist)
Planet Reptilia
Croc Warrior - kick / hand to hand
Small fox - Hide
Siren - Sweet dreams / sleep / (maybe charm?)
Sala - filet / forage
Kermit - drunk
Scali the mighty - bash / kick
Flieat the powerful - bash / kick
General Greenskin - melee / retreat / focus /advanced melee
Reptile King - hide / sneak
Cosmo Canyon
Chocobob - Mount / Tame
Scientist - Fortify Mind
Wandering Mercenary - melee / dual / disarm
Ignatius - Burning Hands / Fireball / Manifest
Thundara - Shocking Grasp / Static Shield / Manifest
Aquarius - Cone of cold / Chill touch / Manifest
Fezzik - drunk
Elder Bugah / Elder Hargo - Detect Alignment
Chef Motukei - Filet
Bugenhagen - Devine mind
Shinra Manager - Steal / Sneak
Game Grid
Crom - fortify mind
Theta / Sark - kick
MCP - confuse
Golf Course
Harem Honker's Bartender - Drunk
Fred in Magic Emporium - Colour Spray / Manifest
Dr Curly Howard - cure light / cure blind
Dr Moe Howard - cure light / cure blind
Dr Larry Howard - cure light / cure blind
Sheila the Museum Curator - Minor Identify
Phil the Bartender - Drunk
Little Italy
Rosie - Drunk
A Bodyguard - Melee / Hand to Hand / Kick / Backstab
Cassandra - Drunk
Bugsy Malone - Firearm / Backstab / Steal
Don Nick Orsini - Dodge / Backstab / Sneak / Blackjack
Orsini Personal Guard - Melee / Advanced Melee / Hand to hand / Backstab
A Mobster (in the secret hideout) - Backstab / Blackjack
An Embalmer - Sense Life / Steal
Android Punk Concert
A Bum - Drunk
The van guys - Sweet Dreams / Colour Spray (Say no to drugs!)
Pot Smoker - Confuse
Heroin Addict - Corrupt Armor
A Beastly Bouncer - melee / advanced melee / hand to hand / push
Head Bouncer - melee / advanced melee / face / hand to hand / push
Craig - sleep / sweet dreams / energy drain
Planet Hoth
R2D2 - Shocking Grasp
Planet Endor
Ewok Shaman - Mana Transfer / Fortify Mind / Manifest
Ewok Chief - Track / Melee / Hand to Hand
Planet Dagobah
Luke Skywalker - forsee / melee
Darth Vader - forsee / melee / brace
Planet Tatooine
Rabbashykk - firearm
Opa Ki Shena - firearm / cure critic
the bartender - drunk
Princess Leia - armor
Jabba the Hutt - backstab / melee / blackjack / grip
Rancor - bash
Han Solo - firearm / throw
Chewbacca - firearm / throw
Death Star
A hangar guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
A Nibolian Spy - Sneak / Hide
Darth Vader - Forsee / brace / battle rage / weaken
A Medical Droid - Life Transfer / Cure Blind / Cure Light
An Assassin Droid - Firearm / Shocking Grasp
General Veers - Firearm / Bash / Retreat
The Emperor - Firearm / Blindness / Protection from Good
Necromunda
Arms Dealer - Firearm / Sneak / Hide
The Bouncer Girl - Push
Karl Alfred - Detect Poison / Antidote 1
Old Red Eye - Firearm
A Surgeon - Cure light / Cure Crit
A Goliath Member splashing around the ice cubes - Prot. Cold
Goliath Lieutenant - Prot. Fire / Berserk
Spaceship Titanic
Control Room Defense System - Static Shield / Armor
Ball Retriever Robot - Throw
A Huge Cockroach - Dodge / TrampleActually, this is the queen - there is no huge cockroach on Titanic.
Queltorian Sector
Bartender - Drunk
Sales Droid (drugstore) - mana transfer / life transfer
Evil Space Lord - Prot. Good / Teleport
Follower of Queltor - Bless / Holy Word
Queltor - Absolve / Holy Shout (I think Queltor is a bit hard to get to, for a T1 spell holy word)
Deadly Goralot - melee / advanced melee / charge / smash
A Demon Spirit - weaken / dispel good
A Blood Beast - poison
Ghost Pilot (he's actually in the spaceship DRW 17) - Nightmare / Energy Drain
Dark Planet
Gojira - trample / smash
Space Harbour
Hangar Guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
Cid Highwind - infravision / strength
Roger Young Cadet - firearm
Captain Lalana - firearm
Monique the Bartender - drunk
A medical nurse - cure light / cure blind
Pleasure Planet
Xetan Hangar Guard - melee / kick / hand to hand
Captain of the Security Guards - firearm / brace / rescue
Android Bartender - Drunk
Sewer Maintenance Worker - Infravision / Sense life
Mistress Narcista - Confuse
Ohlalalalahna - Sweet Dreams
Madame Alda - Sleep
Mugger - Sneak / Hide / Blackjack
Thief - Hide / Sneak / Steal
Shade - Sleep / Drunk
Ossobucco - forsee
Crapshooter / Croupier - forsee
Esmeralda - forsee / manifest
Gym Master - Melee / Push
Quixotica
Karol - Drunk
Lord Balo the Cosmic Jester - Mirror shield / Mana shield
Jake - manipulate
Astrologist - forsee
Space lieutenant - firearm / melee
Jurassic Park
Stacy - forage / filet
Nate Von Mourich - forage / filet / track
Terramort
Colonel Clary - melee / hand to hand / kick
Brigadier Thyme - melee / hand to hand / kick
Pakatugg Treefleet - Hide / Sneak
Abbot Bernard - holy strength / holy shield / Manifest
Friar Alder - Create Food / Create Water
Brother Hubert - Fortify Mind
A Greedy Ferret - Steal
Bigtail - Scan / Melee / Short Blade
New Goznemia
Guard of the City - Sleep / Melee / Hand to Hand
Large Silver Machine - Kick / Steelskin
Stela - cure light / cure critic Is Aggro_evil
Rebels - melee / hand to hand / kick
Down Under
A Hangar Guard - melee / hand to hand / kick
A lunatic - confuse
Bartenders - Drunk
A Dark Figure - Sneak / Hide / Backstab
A little girl - Push
Surfer - Protection from Cold
Aboriginal Man - Track / Forage
Captain Cook - Scan / Bash / Drunk
Sister - Stoneskin / Earthquake / Earth Elemental
Katlyn - Antidote 1 / Antidote 2 / Vitalize
Herbalist - Antidote 1 / Antidote 2
Environment Minister - Control WeatherStrange.. this appeared after i printed this list this morning...
Ministers - Slip
Spaceport Mall
Juan Martinez - Firearm / Hamstring
Mary Lou - Drunk
Gold Digger - Locate Object
The Orbiter
Cryer - Fortify Body
Demu - melee / kick / hand to hand
Cygnostic merchant - Forsee
Yudore
Herbie - Detect Invis / Sense Life
Lovenbroy
Bogans - Firearm / Melee / Advanced Melee
Hangar Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand
Slunch
President of Roller Skating - Haste
Asteroid
Space Captain - Firearm / Retreat / Phase
Sam - Firearm / Bash
Yalc
Yalcans in Marsh - Drunk
Groaci - melee / kick / hand to hand
Poon
Gipp - Protection from Cold
Url Yum - Track / Filet
Surgeon - cure light / cure crit / cure blind / heal
Jackspurt - Hide / Sneak
Alicia - Drunk
Ai-Poppy-Googy - Absolve
Hank Arapoulous - Drunk
Colonel Saddlesore - Firearm / Melee
Captain Pluckwyn - Kick / Hand to Hand / Melee
General Clawhammer - Firearm / Melee / Advanced Melee
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Here are some suggestions for some Recall Zones.
4D Central
Bart - drunk
Healer - cure light, cure blind, prot evil, manifest
Road Guard - melee, kick
Virisin - mind spam, cult personality
You know.. I don't know how many times I've read this post (and even printed it) and I just saw that you included Virisin in the 4D Central list. :) And I love your choice of things he should train.
Kvetchy
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It's not my idea though, it's Palathas'.
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<Note: Means Done, Means Aggro, not done Means there's a question, see another post, Means I can't find the dang mob. I need help because the mob listed here doesn't show up on anything I can look for.>
Medieval
Olde Yorke
Vagabond -blackjack / backstab
Thief - steal / backstab
Pickpocket - hide / steal / sneak
Cityguard - shield, melee
Beggar - forage
Bartender - drunk
Town drunk - drunk
Gambler - forsee
Jailer - push
Merlin (shopkeeper) - word of recall / detect invis / colour spray / manifest
Grocer - detect poison (iffy, detecting poison in the food he sells)
Lionel (armourer) - shield
Archer - bow
Captain of the archers - crossbow / bow
Dwarf - push / fortify body
Robber - hide / throw
Barmaid (golden bridge inn) - drunk
Tournament Place
A French Knight - Joust / Mount / Riding
Squire - Mount / Riding
Tournament Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand
Named Knights - Joust / Mount / Riding
Healer - Cure Light / Cure Blind
Archer - Bow / Crossbow
Robin of Locksley - Crossbow
Fat Abbot - Create Food / Create Water
Minstrel - Sweet Dreams
Robber Baron Castle
Healer (in safe house) - Cure Light / Cure Crit / Antidote 1
A Hungry Ghost - Corrupt Armor
Footman George - Sleep / Melee
Archer - Bow / Crossbow
Captain of the Guards - Bow
Vampire Bat - Infravision
Sherwood Forest
Fat Monk - Create food / create water
The Grocer - Detect poison / filet
The Baker - Detect poison
Young Priest - Cure Light / Cure Blind / Antidote
Wicked Witch - Mana Shield / Corrupt Armor
Deputy Sheriff - Push
Town Drunk/Barmaid - Drunk
Escort Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to hand
Captain of the Guards - Kick / Melee / Hand to hand / Dual
A Greencoat - Bow
Sheriff of Nottingham - Push / Rescue
Red Will - Bash
A Leprechaun - Colour Spray / Midas touch (?)
A Gamewarden - Hide / Track / Bow
Viking Ship
King Soldier - Melee / Kick
Bertram the Baker - Detect poison
Jack Tar - Sleep
Barmaid - Drunk
Some Vikings - Bash
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Kvetch said ‘speak now or forever be silent’.
I’m kind of coming to see how the training mobs might be a good idea. I guess I’m guilty of sticking to the zones I know, and venturing out ever so slowly and cautiously. Maybe it’s the kick I need to get me out exploring new areas.
Thank you for adding the zone name to the list of T3 & T4 skills/spells rather than just listing the dimension. It’s still very hard because most of those zones are in scary future or pre-historic places or hard dessert places but it’s better than it was. It also seems frustrating and confusing when there are a few mobs with the same name but only one of them teaches the particular skill/spell (maybe that has been changed or fixed?). It might be hard in some of the zones, like the Punk Concert, RIP and the Nile, to find trainers because you get attacked at lower levels, but it just could be something about me that made them attack.
I still don’t fully see why all the information (i.e. mob name) isn’t available to all tiers, since people or clans can give out or post that information as it becomes known. Within a few months, all the names will be posted in clan halls, so why not list it now? And I still don’t get the argument that the training mobs are to get people exploring but yet there is some magical cut off in information between T2 & T3.
It seems to make it harder for new people, who are probably loners in their first class at T3 & T4. They might not even know they can ask for that information. On the other hand, if they come into the game expecting to search for training mobs, then it might not be as big of a deal to them just getting the zone information at T3 and they’ll just accept it.
It’s great that more mobs will train skills/spells. Thanks Erwin for making all those suggestions. Most of the extra training mobs just seem to be for T1 & T2 skills/spells. Are there any plans to make some more training mobs for T3 & T4 (maybe for encircle the guard in New Goz. or that RIP guy?) and is it still being discussed to list mob names for T3 & T4? Either way I can live with it how it is now.
Thank you for listening and allowing us all to give input.
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We don't want as many trainers for tier 3 and 4 as we do for tier 1 and 2. While we might add more trainers, they'll all be of similar difficulty as the ones now. We're working on making the skills/spells more balanced, so you shouldn't NEED encircle.
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Most of the extra training mobs just seem to be for T1 & T2 skills/spells.
Yes, I'm trying to get a list of all the mobs that are likely to teach skills in the game, and distribute them T1/T2 skills/spells. Only when the entire list is done then it'll be relooked at to see which mob can also teach T3/T4 skills/spells. Of course, certain mobs which are *perfect* for a T3/T4 skill/spell at first glance will be given it as well.
To all, help out :)
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Kvetch said ‘speak now or forever be silent’.
I did? Cool. I'm not even on for 2 days and I say things. ;) I'll be trying to work on adding Erwin's skills/spells to the mobs mentioned over the next few days. What's the verdict on that spaceport mall/locate object thingy? Adding it or not?
Kvetchy
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Here are some suggestions for some Recall Zones.
<Note from Kvetch: Blue = done, red = aggro so not done, green = question see my post>
4D Central
Bart - drunk
Healer - cure light, cure blind, prot evil, manifest
Road Guard - melee, kick
Virisin - mind spam, cult personality
4D school
squire - kick, melee, mount, riding
cook - filet
Bart - drunk
cowboy -firearm, mount, riding
Mr Smith the gunsmith - firearm
barmaid - drunk
doc holiday - cure light, cure blind
Ok, question about doc holiday is that it is his ghost that is in the mud school, is his ghost supposed to teach these things?
Overall question: Do we really want to have so many different mobs in such a small zone teach the same things? I mean, Old West mudschool is 12 rooms - if you count the "Welcome to..." and the "An open grave..." And we've got Bart and the barmaid teaching drunk, a cowboy AND Mr Smith teaching firearm. Personally, I'd rather have named mobs teaching things when we can. In this case I'd choose having Bart teach drunk and Mr. Smith teach firearm over any old barmaid or any ol' cowboy. I'm sure it's going to be that way throughout the rest of the list too, so before I go any farther, I think I'll wait for this question to be answered:
How many mobs per zone do we want to have teach the same thing? How many per dimension? Yes, T1 and T2 skills/spells should be easy to find/get to, but to have every person that sells a drink teach drunk? I think it's too much. It wouldn't make the trainer system easier, just harder as every mob will have a [T] by their name and you'd have to keep typing practice to find out what they teach.
My 2+ cents for the day.
Kvetch
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It's partly for atmosphere. Mobs that ICly suit a skill/spell, and are difficult enough to get said skill/spell can have it.
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Well, I'd rather go for too many than too few, and the trainers I listed are there for IC reasons. My reasoning is that if a mob looks able to teach a skill, then it should teach it.
I would think the most common grouse of the new trainer system is that spells/skills are located on 1-2 mobs, but these mobs are not the only IC-wise mobs that could teach them that.
An example, I'd be a bit pissed as a newbie if the place I'm levelling at (eg, Pleasure Planet) has many bartenders, yet I'd have to head to The Golf Course to learn drunk.
As for one zone having similar trainers, I myself feel that it would add to the atmosphere of the game, that the mobs are more 'realistic' than just a generic level x mob to kill. Though, I'm not sure if the [T] makes the difficulty of finding trainers harder, especially if mobs teach skills/spells ICly. I mean, a generic swordman in a zone is more likely to teach melee rather than cleave.
Oh..and I just thought of it. Bart should have word of recall, only because of his "I am new here", "Pay up, punk", "Darkness is forever", "In chaos is something" scripts.
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But should we really resort to having trainers every other room? To me that makes this training system stupid. Sorry to use the word. I admit that T! skills/spells should be easily found and on a variety of mobs, but not every mob, or damn near close to it, should be a trainer. Just because you know how to drink doesn't mean you know how to teach someone how to fight while drunk. That is only an example, but it applies as much to other skills as it does to drunk. Just because you can DO it, it doesn't mean you know how to TEACH it.
Kvetch
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That's true. But I don't think the current trainers were selected based on that criteria.
For example, Bigfoot from Mount Winter, Drunken golfer from Golf Course, Vikings from Pirate Ship, R2D2 with steelskin, sphinx with stoneskin..etc.
While I'm not saying that "because the first trainers were like that, all subsequent trainers should be", but it's something to take note of.
However, I would like to think that the lists on the forum (yay my ego) shows at least every conceivable mob that *has the potential to teach skills/spells, so at least the mobs can be selected from these.
But, I'd like for at least each zone to teach a wide range of skills/spells. Reason being, a T1 warrior learning kick up to 30 percent in one zone, can continue on practicing after he remorts in another (tougher) zone, with no break in his questing/exploring/levelling. Gives a sense of continuity, instead of some artificial pause, run back to old zone to train, go back and resume business feeling.
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So.. are we saying that every bartender (since they sell drinks) and every drunk (since they drink) should teach drunk? If so, let's just make this easy and I can do a keyword search and just put it on everyone that registers under those two keywords. All you guys would have to do is find the ones that don't have keyword drunk or bartender in them.
I understand the point of why does R2D2 have the ability to teach steelskin just because his skin is made out of steel - I'd say not, but then again who do you have teach it then.
*sigh*
My issue is mainly with the number of trainers though I agree that more than the first list from Molly was needed. I still don't understand why you need 2 people in a 10 room zone to teach something - that was what was irking me when I started it. Old West in mudschool is only 12 rooms, do we really need 2 people in that 12 rooms to teach drunk, or firearm, or mount, or ride? Putting so many trainers in is just making it so finding a trainer doesn't feel "special".
It's not that I don't want to work. Adding trainers is easy - one good hour and I could probably have your lists done - I just want to make sure I'm not going to be double working when people go "There's too many...I found this one guy and thought he'd teach something different, but NOOOO.. it's the same as the last million guys..." and then I'd have to go in and delete a bunch.
Anyway my.. whatever cents.
Kvetch
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Don't worry so much Iwku, I mean Kvetch. :P
The skills/spells that are recurring are very generic ones. Melee, hand-to-hand, mount, riding, drunk.. those kind of skills that are usefull for everyone to have, can be dumped on loads of trainers for atmosphere, and to help the newbies out. It's not like every second mob has a t3 or t4 skill/spell, so it'll still feel awesome when you finally find the trainer with encircle for instance.
As for keyword searching, that's a great idea. When I originally made the lists I put down: bartenders for drunk. And thieves for backstab. I was hoping someone could do a keyword search to get it on all of them... Some of those lowly tier 1 skills/spells that fit onto generic mobs would be great for keyword search placements..
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*Thinks of shooting Virisin but realizes he'd somehow survive so turns the gun on herself.*
BANG!
*dead*
Sorry, that was my thought of the keyword searches. Yeah, I know I mentioned it and I'll go crawl into a hole now and die.
*croaks*
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Actually, why not take it further?
Since there are Normal mobs, Rogue mobs, Caster mobs, Warrior mobs, have it such that the rogue mobs teach backstab, blackjack, caster mobs teach manifest, chill touch, and warrior mobs teach melee, hand to hand..
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THAT is a handy idea..
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No comment... just...
*whimper*
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One list down, 3 to go.. so far. :P
Kvetchy
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Ptah - Fortify Mind
My question is this. He's supposed to look like a statue (he's got the color to do so), I think having a cyan [T] in front of his name would give it away. Should it still be done?
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Uh, not sure. Can't remember why I picked him though.
*Edit. Oh. Seth and the sphinx were statues, but they were set as trainer mobs too :)
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Ghost Pilot (he's actually in the spaceship DRW 17) - Nightmare / Energy Drain
I hesitate to add this because this mob is wizinvis. Isn't part of the trainer thing to find people with [T] in front of their names so you know they're a trainer? With a wizinvis mob you should never know the mob's there. I'm told there is at least one other mob in the game like this and I think that is against the trainer system purpose.
Kvetch
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Well yeah, I guess so. I'd say put him in the helpfiles, like herbie is in the helpfile for Brace. Sort of encourage people to look out for wizinvis mobs and explore outer space. Or perhaps as an Easter Egg for these T4 spells since there's already another trainer in the game. But realistically, I guess he shouldn't be a trainer because of his wizinvis.
Though, I can't even remember how I found him.
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The only way to find a wizinviz trainer mob would be to walk into every room and type practice (or whatever the word is to find out what a trainer trains). My understanding is that wizinviz mobs can't be seen even with detect invis (hence the wizinvis and not just invis). I really don't want this training system to become a move, type practice, nope - no trainer, move, type practice...
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Rebels - melee / hand to hand / kick
I can not find any "Rebels" in New Goznemia. I can only assume this is like the "van guys" where they are other mobs put under one title. Need help here.
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Kvetch is right.
Herbie is the only exception that was allowed as a wizinvis trainer mob.
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Good point. So we'll scratch that pilot then. Or put him in as a bonus trainer since there's already some nightmare and energy drain trainers out there. Come to think of it, what is his purpose anyway though?
For the rebels, that'll be the guys in the way way way way north of New Goz, 1s, 1e 1d, and for the President of Roller Skating, that'd be Frederik in the new Slunch (not the old Slunch). For the Down Under mobs..I think some are locations of quest mobs so I'll tell you when you get online. But surely Herbie can be added to the trainers, since he originally teaches brace?
But yeah, thanks Kvetch for adding in all the fututre trainers :)
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Various Islands and Landmarks in the Seas of Prehistoric. Some T3/T4 skills/spells, need vetting through.
<Note: Means Done, Means Aggro, not done Means there's a question, see another post, Means I can't find the dang mob. I need help because the mob listed here doesn't show up on anything I can look for.
Old Carthage>
Muscular Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to hand
Prince Maneros - Push
Realms of Thetis
Thetis - Protection from cold / Waterwalk
Seas
Lorelei - Protection from Cold
Tenedos
Thimaea - Antidote 1 / Antidote 2
Greek soldier - melee / hand to hand / kick
Greek Commander - advanced melee / longarm / melee
Rebels - melee / hand to hand / kick / sneak
Alexias - advanced melee / sneak / longarm / melee
Lemnos
Teenagers - Colour Spray / Drunk
Priestess of Hephaistos - fireball / holy strength / manifest
Imbros
Priest of Cabeiri Twins - waterwalk / manifest / protection from cold (Cabeiri Twins protected and came to the aid of sailors..so..)
Winery Owner - Drunk
Samothrace
Priestess of the Great Goddess - Earth Elemental / Earthquake / Manifest
High Priest of Zeus - Call Lightning / Shocking Grasp / Manifest
High Priest of the Great Gods - Manifest / Holy Strength / Meditate
Thasos
Innkeeper - drunk
Apollo Priest - fireball / protection from fire / manifest / burning hands (Did you know that Apollo was also known for archery?)
Athos
High Priest - Sweet dreams / Manifest
Parapethus
Nemesis - melee / advanced melee
Three Fates - forsee
Sciathus
Patros Kyriakos - Drunk
Scyros
Nurse - Cure Light
Tinos
Micopolos - drunkActually it's Micopoulos.
Thief - steal / picklock / sneak
Ingratia - drunk
Kitimos
Membos - Drunk
Delos
Priest - Protection from fire / Manifest
Mykonos
Alcinoos - Drunk
Siros
Oread - Invisibility
Paros
Apollo - Mind Fire / Flame Arrow / Protection from fire / Fireball / Fire Shield / Burning Hands / Inferno
Naxos
Wine King - Drunk
Artemis - Bow / Crossbow / Mounted Combat / Acid Arrow / Magic Missile
Ariadne - Drunk
I must admit, there may be some aggro mobs that snuck past me to this point.
Sifnos
Scorpios - Sneak / Steal
Marxites - Bash / Steal / Sneak
Amorgos
Dionysus - Confuse / Water to Wine / Drunk
Lesbos
Apollo Priest - Manifest / Burning Hands / Fireball / Protection from Fire / Flame Arrow
Innkeepers - Drunk
Dionysos Priest - Drunk / Confuse / Water to Wine / Manifest
Chios
Winery Owner - Drunk
Priest of Poseidon - Waterwalk / Protection from Cold / Manifest
Sultan (or Eunuch) - Hold Person
Anchusa/Calinia (or just Calinia) - Charm
Harem Girls - Sweet Dreams
Samos
Dionysus Priest - Drunk / Confuse / Water to Wine / Manifest
Agis - Drunk
Innkeeper - Drunk
Icaria
Pirate - Sneak / Hide
Overseer - Hold Person
Pirate Leader - Sneak / Hide / Short Blade / Encircle (tentative?)
Calymne
Falinos - Locate Object
Cos
Asclepios Priest - Cure Light / Cure Critic / Cure Blind / Manifest
Apollo Priest - Fortify Mind / Manifest
Artemis Priestess - Fortify Body / Group Heal / Manifest
Hera Priestess - Hyperactivity (um...) / Manifest
Aphrodite Priestess - Sweet Dreams / Manifest
Anaphe
Local Healer - Cure Light / Cure Critic / Cure Blind
Nisyrus
Egelos - Drunk
Syme
Euphrosyne - Drunk
Thalia - Create Food
Aglaia - Charm
Carpathos
Hermes Priest - Armor / Sanctuary / Manifest / Group Armor
Innkeeper - Drunk
Wine Merchant - Drunk
Rhodes
Queen's Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand
Baker - Detect Poison
Landlord - Drunk
Weaponsmith - Manipulate
Hera Priestess - Hyperactivity (um...) / Manifest
Athena Priestess - Devine Mind / Manifest
Actaea - Thorn Shield
Cyprus
Jeweller - Minor Identify
Baker - Detect Poison
Weaponsmith - Dual / Melee
Garden of the Hesperides
Ladon - Face Aggro - Evil
Erythia
Geryon - berserk / smash
Thrinakia
Helios - Mind Fire / Inferno / Fireball / Fire Shield / Protection from Fire (Iffy)
Island of the Sirens
Sirens - Sweet Dreams / Charm
Ithaka
Polybos - Drunk
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Yes, I knew Apollo was known for archery. :D Most of those Greek/Egyptian gods were known for loads of things.
Also, not sure about encircle + hyperactivity on those lists. Those mobs arn't that hard to find.
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I love how the Dionysus priest can do more than Dionysus himself can. *heh* You'd think as a god he'd be able to train more.
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Yeah, but gods shouldn't know how to manifest as they have the power naturally.
Nod at Viri, that's why the vetting. Though, I do admit I put in hyperactivity for fun, considering the role of the Hera priestess. However, I thought the Pirate Leader was as 'hidden' as the encircle trainers currently, if not more so.
Of course, if Kvetch gets the trainers in, the entire list could be deleted, since the Aegean Islands comprise of 40 islands and 1 small land mass called Euboea. Big..big..big..big..big..place.
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Anyway, what do you all think about adding in pre-req skills or "ICable" pre req skills to trainers?
For example, for mobs I gave advanced melee to, I also gave them melee, for Siren type mobs, I give them charm + sweet dreams. And for Gods that teach T4 spells/skills eg, Helios for Mind Fire, I gave him Fireball, Inferno, Fire Shield, on the basis if that he can teach a T4 spell/skill, he should be able to teach T1-T3 IC-like spells/skills as well.
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Old West
Victorian England
Mr Hyde - Smash / Drunk / Berserk
Burke and Hare - Sneak / Hide / Sense Life
Xian - Antidote 1
Li Wu - Sweet Dreams
Sweeney Todd (other) - filet / short blade
Margery - Detect Poison / Filet
Sherlock Holmes - Fortify Mind / Detect Poison / Detect Align / Pick lock (Iffy, but he *is* an expert cracksman, though I suppose, not as good as A.J. Raffles (Amateur Cracksman), or Arsene Lupin (Gentleman Thief))
A Tearful Woman - Poison
Jack the Ripper - Short Blade / Filet / Encircle (?)
Orla - Antidote 1 / Antidote 2 / Detect Poison
Fat Man - Forage
Old Hag - Confuse
Frail Old Lady - Poison
Grinning Lunatic - Confuse
Chief Surgeon - Shocking Grasp
Captain Gawp N. Mouth - Drunk
San Francisco Harbour
Bartender in Sea Shanty - Drunk
Bartender in Captain's Daughters - Drunk
Sutter's Fort and Coloma River Valley
Young Indian Boy - Tame / Mount / Riding
Guards/Soldier - Firearm
Gatekeeper - Firearm / Scan
Elizabeth Winston - Detect Poison
Donald Anson - Filet
James the Gunsmith - Firearm
Brand Bergen, Blacksmith Extraordinaire - Manipulate
Captain Manuel Trujillo - Firearm / Retreat / Rescue
Doc Brown - Cure Light / Cure Critic
Mama Joe - Filet / Detect Poison
Jasper Schmidt - Antidote 1 / Antidote 2
John Sutter - Firearm / Locate Object
Tombstone
Hank Swilling - Firearm
A Trapper - Forage / Track
Luke Short - Forsee / Drunk
Bat Masterton - Forsee
Doc Holliday - Firearm / Cure Light
McLowery Brothers - Firearm
Frank Loving - Firearm
Joe Lowe - Drunk / Firearm
Stage Coach Guard - Firearm / Kick
Earp Brothers - Firearm
The Undertaker - Sense Life
Clanton Brothers - Firearm
Sheriff Behan - Firearm / Hold Person
Chop Suey - Filet / Detect Poison
Town Drunk - Drunk
Tom Smith - Mount / Riding / Tame
John Ringo / Curly Bill - Firearm
Mines
Gloin the Dwarf Repairman - Recharge
Torin the Dwarven Armourer - Embue Armor
Muscular Blacksmith - Manipulate
Bombur - Manipulate / Enchant Weapon
Balrog - Grapple (He grappled and threw me into the Abyss :( )
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I know, I know, this may sound a bit pointless, but.. I do have problems with Lionel the armorer of Olde Yorke training shield. I mean, if he was teaching them how to MAKE a shield I'd have no problem, but how to cast a spell? Problem. Just thought I'd note that even though I still put it in.
And, Robin of Locksley, as far as I know, was known for his bow, not for his crossbow skill. But still.. since no-one pointed it out, I put it in. *blah*
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Good point. Never really thought about it that way. Guess I got confused with the Robber Baron and King Arthur's knights teaching shield.
For the crossbow, that's a bit iffy. I put it in originally because I thought very few mobs (if any), use the crossbow, but come to think of it..there's actually a lot when I went through the zones. So I guess it can be taken out too.
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Just to finish off the Future Dimension
Outback
Harry - Strength
Old Guzzling Bartender - Drunk
Jimmy - Minor Identify / Steal
Mick - Mount / Riding / Tame
*I'm not sure whether the aborigines should get 'group' spells, since there isn't any IC reason except for the fact they are in groups, so I'll only give one group spell
Aboriginal Elder - Cure Blind / Antidote 1 / Antidote 2 / Heal / Group Heal / Cure Light / Cure Critic (Can a trainer teach these many spells? Else, just Heal and Group Heal)
Aborigines - Track / Filet / Forage / Scan
Jolly Swagman - Steal / Filet
Skippy the Kangaroo - Haste
Crocodile Dundee - track
Leprechaun - Locate Object
Rainbow Serpent - Control Weather / Create Water
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Just to finish off the Future Dimension
Really? I'm starting to think that's "Just to finish off Kvetchy's sanity..."
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Really? I'm starting to think that's "Just to finish off Kvetchy's sanity..."
That was gone ages ago.
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More Prehistoric Zones
Prehistoric Forest
Cleric of Lanseril - Cure Light / Cure Blind / Harm
Stone Age II
Neanderthals and Cro Magnons Adults - Hand to Hand / Melee / Kick
Shaman - Manifest / Detect Magic
Apprentice - Manifest
Crete
Satyr - Drunk
Overseer - Hold Person
Palace Guard - Kick / melee / Hand to Hand
Ariadne / Priestess - Manifest
Queen Pasiphae - Sweet Dreams
Bookmaker - Forsee
Actor the Trainer - Dodge
Labyrinth of Knossos
Ariadne (in the Maze) - Earth Elemental / Manifest
Minotaurus - Charge / Smash / Grapple
Realm of Hades
Pirithoos - sneak / blackjack / backstab
Hecate - Animate Dead / Curse
Theseus - Advanced Melee / Melee / Hand to Hand / Kick
Thanatos / Disease - Lifesuck
Ghost of Famous Warrior - Kick / Melee / Bash / Hand to Hand
Ajax - Advanced Melee / melee / Kick / Hand to Hand
Arabian Desert
Raider / Cactus - Hide / Sneak / Melee / Hand to Hand / Kick
Nyiam - Colour Spray / Manifest / Magic Bubble (iffy)
Behemoth - Trample / Smash
Upper Nile
Alchemist - Water to Wine / Antidote 1
Overseer - Hold Person
Innkeeper - Drunk
Priestess of Mut - Manifest / Protection from Evil / Fortify Mind
Amum Priest - Manifest
Wawat
Rogue Nomad - Steal / Backstab / Track
Egyptian Overseer - Hold Person
Egyptian Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand
Chief of the Guards - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand / Disarm
War Elephant - Charge / Trample
Nubian Archer - Bow
Commander of Fort Semna - Advanced Melee / Parry / Melee / Hand to Hand
Didu - Advanced Melee / Meditate / Melee / Hand to Hand
Land of Kush
Parbatqo - Manipulate
Kaloque - Melee / Hand to Hand / Kick
Anubis Priest - Manifest / Remove Curse / Detect Alignment
Anemapis, Priest of Amun - Manifest / Air Elemental (Amun was the god of air!)
Mut Priestess - Manifest / Protection from Evil / Fortify Mind
Priest of Apedemek - Manifest / Devine Mind / Fortify Mind
Guard - Kick / Melee / Hand to Hand
Shebanqy - Track / Hand to Hand / Melee / Kick
Pygmy Chief - Throw / Scalp
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Done done done.. and... done. Finally done with all of ERwin's lists. *cheers*
And.. my sanity is gone as well. Thank you very much. If you ever find it, let me know, will ya. I kinda miss it.. what little I had of it, that is.
Kvetchy
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*Fizban spots Kvetches sanity and remembers he was supposed to tell her if he did, but seeing as he hasn't eaten in a while he eats it instead.*
-- Fizban, the Eater of Sane Things
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Shoot.. that was probably hardly even an appitizer, Fizzy. You could've let it live.
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OK – thanks, Erwin for putting together these lists, and Kvetch, for setting the Trainers in OLC.
I think that even the players, who were against this change to start with, have come to realize that the new system actually encourages exploring, which after all is what 4D basically is about. I’ve come to realize myself, that publishing the names of the zones and Trainers actually will encourage this exploring too. Without any detailed info, some players will just give up and sit at Recall whining about things being too hard and intimidating. Knowing the name of the zone and the Trainer gives you a specific goal to look for. And hopefully, once you’ve managed to seek a trainer out in a specific zone that you never visited before, at least some of you might realize that there are a lot more interesting things in this game than just killing the same mobs in the same few zones over and over for experience.
I’ve made a total list of all the trainers, based on the original helpfile list and Erwin’s new lists. A few of the skills/ spells have been removed from it, since they didn’t make sense to us ICly, (above all the Grocers and Bakers getting detect poison). I’ve also added a few skills and spells that seemed natural to me).
I’ll publish this list on a new thread, to make it easier to find.
The list is set up after the system Dimension – Zone – Location – Mob Name. This means that you’ll have to look a bit to find a specific skill, but it still provides very good info for those who care to read.
Two more things:
1. Eventually we’ll also publish the list on the Main Website, but not quite yet.
First I want as many as possible to check it out and see if some of the trainers don’t make sense, or if we’ve missed something in the process. In both cases , please post corrections and additions on this thread, not the new one.
2. I know that we decided not to post any info about the Trainers for Behead and Cleave, but I’ve started to think that this is a mistake. My personal belief is that we should at least post the name of the zone where these trainers are. I’d like some input on this from as many players as possible, feel free to set up a poll if you like
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Cleave/behead/encircle need to be weakened a bit.. Currently they're like superskills. Then you can just list them like all the other skills/spells, which is how they should be.
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I would agree that it would be a mistake not to post the trainer/zone for behead and cleave, or for any skill/spell for that matter.
My experience with this new system has been limited because I was a Tier 4 thief when it started, and I am still a Tier 4 thief, and so I only had to find one or two trainers. One of the trainers I had to find was for encircle. I was initially opposed to the new system, especially when the clue for the encircle skill was .... well, no clue. The trainer could be anywhere in any dimension.
To me, such vagueness wasn't much fun or challenging. It was just frustrating and made me feel like calling it quits. When the zone where the encircle trainer was announced, it was a challenge because that zone was huge but it was fun. I tried stuff I never had before (like flying my own spaceship). I found a new really cool area, a really intriguing quest, a flag and got a token. And as a side bonus I encounted a few people on my travels to find where these skill trainers were and got into a conversation with them - something that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Those experiences made me warm somewhat to this new system.
The goal of the system is to get people exploring. So why single out hunters and warriers who might want to try behead or cleave? Why make it so difficult? If finding trainers is too hard, people just might bypass those skills and level on and then if they reach GM they won't even know what those skills are like and if they want to chose that class. Or even if they don't reach GM, they will miss out on some fun things of a class. Or, they might just say to themselves, this is stupid and too much of a hassle.
Anyway Virisin as far as encircle being overpowered...maybe it is, maybe not. But you lose kick when you reach level 4 thief so unless you have a mount that can trample you pretty much just sit there helpless and watch the fight on the screen scroll by. Encircle is essential! And behead and cleave are probably just as essential.
So my vote is for the more information the better.
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If finding trainers is too hard, people just might bypass those skills and level on and then if they reach GM they won't even know what those skills are like and if they want to chose that class. Or even if they don't reach GM, they will miss out on some fun things of a class. Or, they might just say to themselves, this is stupid and too much of a hassle.
Anyway Virisin as far as encircle being overpowered...maybe it is, maybe not. But you lose kick when you reach level 4 thief so unless you have a mount that can trample you pretty much just sit there helpless and watch the fight on the screen scroll by. Encircle is essential! And behead and cleave are probably just as essential.
If people bypass learning encircle/cleave/behead they'd learn a damn sight more about the class they were in than if they learnt the skills. Learning them just means you can forget every other skill the class knows, because all you need is that one skill.
Yes, yes, they're essential now, especially encircle because it's the only aggressive skill Thieves get.
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Well, considering the many zones in the mud, it is possible for a T4 low remort thief to remort entirely without getting encircle, just by exploring (and killing mobs along the way). However, yes, it is pretty boring.
Thieves do get more skills than encircle, but Virisin is right, encircle is the ONLY aggressive skill / useful currently.
Strangle - (subskills which help are currently locked in Fenizia, so strangle doesn't help that much). Even then, strangle only works on T0 mobs. T1, T2, T3, and T4 mobs ignore the effects and attack.
Flank - Skill not done
Poison Weapon (Most poison objects are locked in Fenizia, and most mobs which are a toughie are sadly !POISON)
Trap Aware - Bugged again, thieves can't flee and attack from the shadows, rather, they have to duke it out like a warrior style
Slip - Only useful in PK, mobs which hit hard surprisingly have very little inventory room to slip objects into, and as snare is a T1 skill, slip can easily backfire without trap aware.
If encircle were to get weakened, I'd say it should be done only after the above 4 skills are looked into, else thief would become worse than ranger :)
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I am currently working on revamping Fenizia, so it should be opened again in foreseeable time, with a cute new feature added.
As for poison weapon; if you provide a list with tough mobs immune to poison, I'll think about removing it from some of them, since it is a nice skill, which should be used more.
The entire Fenizia zone was once built around that single skill.
The rest is for the Coders to do something about. Regrettably they all seem to be more or less AWOL at present. *sigh*
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It's not as simple as just removing the poison immunity though... It needs some indepth coding behind it or poison WILL be overpowered. But yes, currently everyone basically fights like a warrior - duking it out with the mob till one of them dies. Even casters.. There's no seperation or uniqueness, cept for a different set of eq between casters and fighters/rogues.
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I play with directionals as caster, what fight like a warrior? :D
But..hmm..I'm not sure what constitutes as a tough mob, considering the percentage chance of poison affecting mobs. I'd say poison 1 is useless for tiered mobs level 60+ish, you can poison them with poison 1, they can remain poisoned for 3-4 days without reboots, and still be at full HP, since they regen more HP than poison. Poison 2, poison 3, and poison 4 should be the main weapons of a thief though, but given that they work rather infrequently (I'm not sure if poison 3ing or poison 4ing the balrog works), most of the time when the poison actually affects the mob, he's already half dead.
I have no idea what tough mobs are, sadly, since I do admit I use encircle on most of them.
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It's not as simple as just removing the poison immunity though... It needs some indepth coding behind it or poison WILL be overpowered. But yes, currently everyone basically fights like a warrior - duking it out with the mob till one of them dies. Even casters.. There's no seperation or uniqueness, cept for a different set of eq between casters and fighters/rogues.
Examples? Of code changes you feel would be needed if the immunities were removed that is.