Player Wipe (PWipe)

[Kvetch]

I've been itching to reply to this for days (dang that internet connection and the fact I couldn't remember my password - since it's in my laptop, I don't need to know it), so now I've got the option.

Is the main issue here pwipe or no-pwipe?  It seems with the amount of change that goes in, you would, in fact have to get rid of the characters themselves.  A character that already has all these skills/spells/etc probalby would not fit into the new system completely well.  The new system being that you really have to chose how you want your character to advance, not just "oh, it's a fighter skill so I'm gonna go get me some of it..."  I think wit the amount of change, the character pwipe has to happen....

That leaves the inventory pwipe.  Part of our issues on 4D is the fact that gold has no meaning.  I mean, you get it but seriously, what do you spend it on?  We don't have eq that gets worn through use so you don't spend money to keep them repaired (that's something I would love to see back in.  I'm told the basic code had it so it must have been taken out for some reason years ago).  Sure, you spend money on potions, but we've had to up the cost so much on those that newbies can barely afford them and they're really the ones that need them.  It's the whole inflation thing.  And letting "oldbies" (which, btw: needs a definition if you want to continue an arguement about it) keep their stuff won't help the whole inflation thing.  We'd still have to have overpriced items just so hopefully they'll spend their money (if they decide to leave recall).

My thought is this - any player (oldbie or newish) should get something for having spent their time with us before a pwipe.  My suggestion (so only my opinion, not those of the other IMM's on 4D) is that each player that is currently with us (yes, this would include Darvus even though he is so completely new) should get something because they are losing a character.  My thought?  Either a basic crashproof house, or a perz mount (though there would have to be a stable somewhere so you can use it).  I understand there'd probably be a bit of resistance to this, after all Darvus has been with us for a few months and some of you have spent years (many, many years) collecting your horde of items.  But 1) seriously, do you need all that crap you're hording? 2) why is you losing your character any more of a blow than Darvus losing his?  Darvus has spent a lot of time actually playing his character - and rping.  More than quite a few "oldbies" that I've seen around lately.  Shoot, I got names popping up on my screen that I didn't even know as a mort - and that's like 5 years now.  So, they (even though they've not played for 5 years and just rejoined us in the last 2 weeks) should get more than someone that's been playing virtually every day for the last 4 (or so) months just because they're an "oldbie"?  Like I said, that term really needs to get defined.  I wouldn't consider Cati an oldbie, but like I've said it's been like 5 years.

I may also be willing to throw in 1 (yes, one) perz item into the bribe, but as said, it should apply equally to everyone that is currently with the game.  The only reason I think people should get something is because they have spent years with us - some of those frustraiting years - and deserve "something", but not everything.  If it goes for one, it goes for all.

[Virisin]

Thanks for a well thought out post Kvetch.

I dislike rewarding players for just having played before, one of the best things about starting fresh is that everyone is equal. Giving everyone that is currently playing a crashproof or mount or something would be a very bad idea I think, it'd devalue houses or whatever right from the very start of the new code and then leads to devalued tokens as has been pointed out in this thread before.

[Tocharaeh]

Let me try and tackle this one at a time:

Why would losing our hoards matter?

It's not the hoards we care about. It's the fact that we spent time in earning, and perzing them. There is zero reason why we should lose perzes. On the topic of awarded eq like say Best Dressed of 2007, or some RP rewarded eq, those are awards that should never be lost. They earned those, and unless a DT happens or it's been perzed, there is no reason why they should vanish.

Mounts:
We paid for it. Why are we paying for it again?

Houses:
So, not only did we invest hundreds of hours into a game that gives very little payout in terms of player satisfaction. What do we have to show for the time we've invested in the game? Houses, mounts, and perzes. Why would you want to take what we have rightfully earned and invested?
 Houses are something I have completely against taking away from players who earned the tokens, and built the houses. They made them their own, and spent a lot of time customizing them. What right does someone have to say "We're putting in a new combat/skill system, so we're going to take away YOUR investment in us away. You're not getting it back. Go earn and build all over again."
 Now if you think I'm all like this because I have a house, you're dead wrong. I don't have one. I have a mount, and like 3 perzes.


We're going to update a shitty system to something that is actually worth playing in. We were fine in old code back in those simpler times. New code came around and things got complicated, and half assed. Don't get me wrong. I am for pwipes when it's for the right thing. However, I do not see the need for a pwipe in this instance.

Molly is against the locking oldbies away. I don't know why but whatever. Who are we to decide who are oldbies. Pretty easy to pick us all out if you ask me. Obviously darvus wouldn't be included. What about completely inactive accounts? Well, they can log back on like I did and find my character gone. Their fault for not playing.

Hoarding in houses: Get rid of everything that isn't perzes or nailed to the floor. Simple as that. If it's furniture, leave it alone.

Pwipes for the wrong reason are lazy and irresponsible. They can be completely avoided. I honestly don't see why we would need it to convert to a new system. I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

make a simple recall command that we all have to type in order to move from old skills to new skills. Send are asses back to creation to pick our stuff or however the menu system is going to work. While we're busy doing that, we can safely store our eq in the houses. Most muds with reclass systems (if not all of them) when you go into the recreate, you lose everything you're holding/wearing anyhow. Go put things away.

next thing: make eq level required. I've always been supportive of requiring people to be certain levels to wear pieces. Guess what, if ya did that you could completely avoid a pwipe, AND force everyone to be on equal footing. Wow, that wasn't hard at all. Need people to go through and put the level requirements on all the quest gear? you've got people who will work. use them.

Pwipe = lazy
level req gear = the perfect balancing system for eq if you want everyone to always be on equal footing eq wise.

[Virisin]

If you don't lose perzes but get to repeat the quests then you get more tokens than you should have been able to. It leads to inflation and devaluing of tokens I have stated this repeatedly throughout the thread Toch and I'm beginning to wonder if you're ignoring me on purpose. A broken economy leads to a crappy game. It's quite simple. I hate how you keep saying people 'earnt' these things. All they did was get enough tokens to buy perzes, it's very easy to re-'earn' them again as long as you redo the quests which you will do anyway.

I understand the sentiment behind keeping things that actually were actually rewarded - Boba's for instance. Not that I ever look at my two of them, my name on a plaque is good enough for me and that's not changing. However I don't think anyone would really be opposed to people having Best Dressed of 2007 reloaded for them. I wouldn't really like it seeing as we're essentially starting a new port but eh, it doesn't fuss me if they really help you sleep at night.

You pay for mounts again because you are regaining the tokens you used to pay for mounts in the first place, again. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is what it essentially all comes down to.

If you think you've invested hundreds of hours into a game for very little satisfaction then I don't understand why you're still playing. I want to take away your houses and perzes and mounts because YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! It is very easy to earn them again, and I don't want a new port to be fucked right from the start. Quite simple, I've said it so many times this thread my arguments are degenerating.

And stop misrepresenting what I'm saying too, it's quite clear in this thread that houses will not be destroyed, the building work will not disappear, I was even open to them staying in the mud, you just have to re-earn the tokens before you get to become owner of them again. Please read the thread Toch. I have like 4 houses and about 30 perzes, the only people close to the amount of wealth I have in this game are Hayato and Xeriuth, and Jaros because he has access to all the same houses. We (bar Jaros because I havn't spoken to him, but I will make him agree with me) are the three that stand to lose the most and we are not complaining. Stop pretending you are complaining for all those people out there that have houses and simply arn't around to talk.

I'm not sure what your next paragraph after houses actually says, doesn't seem to have any relevance to anything cept maybe the last line: this is about the only instance I can think of in which a pwipe is a needed.

It's quite obvious why Molly is against the idea, her post is only a few posts up from yours. Locking oldbies away is a ridiculous idea that solves nothing, again though that has been properly explained earlier in the thread. What about completely inactive accounts? I see no reason why 4d should give two tosses about what completely inactive accounts think.

Sure it would be easy to avoid a pwipe, if we want to continue to play the flawed current system with better gameplay.

Level based equipment is also a horrible idea, I don't want to be penalized and not wear good equipment just because immortals didn't expect someone to complete one of the harder quests at like level 5... That kind of thing really annoys me, and as far as lazyness goes, minlevel is about as lazy as it gets.

[Prometheus]

After much reading and wanting to digest a few people for long posts I will be brutally honest.

If we do pwipe I doubt Fiachra would ever be back. My immortal would stay. But I have a different view since I don't own any perzs or a house.

So my question is for Horus who will be coding the skills trees:
Would it be easier to do it from scratch or build on what we have?

I also suggest this which might not go over well:
Why not do an item purge / token / gold purge and reset it that way?

What I am reading from most of this is because of hoarders or people who have tons of items / houses / perzes.

And I have only seen Virisin make a mention of this about changing the leveling system. What do people think about that part of it?

I would like to see what people have to say before I go no my mortal will never return to maybe he might.

Prometheus aka Fiachra.

[Virisin]

To be brutally honest in response I have to wonder what logic you're using in order to come to your conclusions. We're having a complete gameplay overhaul and upgrade and you're saying you wouldn't bring your character back to actually play in the improved game. Yet you're happy to continue 'playing' as an immortal made redundant by the fact that we actually have proper coders now.

If you're suggesting an item/token/gold purge then I take it the only thing you're worried about is losing levels, you'd rather just be transferred into a new system, be level 100 or whatever and continue doing nothing.. Sounds awesome. Let me know how that goes.

Most of this is because the game is being changed significantly, coupled with the fact that the economy is broken and this code was essentially a beta version of 4d anyway, with a feckload of bugs and things that have been exploited over it's course.

[Hayato]

Cuz everyone worried about losing their stuff is playing the game so much amirite?

[horus]

The fact that skill trees is coming in is different to the issue of a pwipe. If there are compromises to be made, we can say provide compensation, so if you have a GM, we can always level you up to level 100 in the new system, and you go off and start choosing skills/spells branches of your choice. However, this will make you less appreciative of the new system, and I dare say, you will also create new alts that you will bond with even more because you built those characters up from scratch.

The issue of pwipe is really a chance to fix another fatal flaws common with badly designed muds - inflation and stagnation. Inflation is caused by quite a few issues, and I will try to explain some that are unique to 4d. Firstly, almost anything of worth for an experienced 4der does not cost gold, it costs tokens. Anything that is not useful to a 4der costs gold, but then because of inflation, newbies cant use them because its too bloody expensive for them. So do you see the irony there? Furthermore, because of the remort system, there are skills/spells you do keep from previous classes, or as a GM, you have a huge set of skills/spells, and so the need for potions is diminished quite dramatically.

To illustrate what I want to point out, I can give you a hypothetical situation - if I were to take out all healing spells, and all shopkeepers now sell healing potions, guess what? Suddenly, people will NEED gold to buy those healing potions, it becomes more valuable. If I were to take out all protective spells, shops like those in Asylum will be visited much much more. So what am I alluding to?

In the new skill system, there will be those that really want to specialise into a combat crazy machine, with absolutely no natural protection. They will be the ones who will have to go in search of protection potions etc, or group with another that specialises in protection abilities. The players who are jack-of-all trades will have most spells, but not in its most powerful forms, so they too will want to use certain potions, or services from caster mobs. We will get to a situation where, mobs will have different types of services, with different spell powers (spell ranks), unlike the current situation today, where all healers provide exactly the same thing.

For us to achieve an equitable system, and for this new system to have a greater chance to work, and be appreciated, we need to work off a clean slate. Those that gets to keep anything will end up skewing the balance of the system in ways unforeseen. As my example above illustrates, I am sure quite a few of you didnt appreciate what skill trees meant to the economy, and to the extent of ensuring not just a variety in different characters, but also a variety in what mobs can offer as well. So, quite a few of us will not be able to predict the extent of the impact of keeping perzes/houses/etc. I for one cannot predict it.

So, if we are going to do a pwipe, it has to be a all or nothing approach. We either pwipe EVERYTHING, or we dont do a pwipe at all. Simple as that. Its like Vista - trying to make older customers happy screwed MS up, Windows 7 ftw I say!

[Xeriuth]

Well maybe not everything, say people can keep one of a kind awards and such, that wouldn't really outbalance anything. Like boba's or rp awards like the favorites from Riley. Or even RP eq can carry over since they are restrings, not in game items. If people make a list for things that don't really give any much benefit and are just for show I can see them keeping those and wiping everything else. But if people complain not about losing levels, gold and tokens. And just equipment. They need to hit a DT and understand that that's all an eq wipe really is. It's say what's happened to me, having someone junk / loot everything in your house and hitting a DT.  You lose everything. Even though the house looting has happened once, And I've hit 12 DT's I still have a ton ton of stuff. And that's just from the playing I've done, there's been years I've probably just recall squatted and did nothing but slowly accumulate wealth... Sure it did take me years but I could re-earn everything I have in a month or two... Because totalled that's about the time I spent playing to get my stuff, granted a lot more for levels but that's a given.. we will lose our levels.  Sorry for the rambling, just what's on my mind. heh.

[Diandra]

Originally I didn't intend to even post here. Why? Because no matter what the outcome is, I can hide with an immortal character and I can just ignore all the changes and don't be part of it.

But as I already mentioned to someone else, other people can't, the same people who actually play this game, the people who left a mark in 4d with their character.

From what I have read, there's two different things being discussed in this thread:
- a pwipe because of the new skilltree changes
- a pwipe to solve the economy

Anubis was so kind to explain the skilltree system in more detail and I can see where putting each character at level 1 again, would be a benefit there.
So that each and every single player, can have a feel what the skilltree system is like, to see if the 'new' skills and spells they are going to choose at certain levels are to their liking or not. If they made a  mistake they can still rectify it within the next level(s), if not, you have to complete the padd you have choosen.

If, after the skilltree-change, people would get practices according to their current level/tier and would just randomly pick a skilltree, they might make a wrong decision which can not be undone.


Now to the part where a pwipe is needed to 'revive' the economy.

There's mainly talk about two different currencies in here: gold and tokens (and what was obtained with those tokens).

If putting every character at level 1 for the new treeskillsystem is the best way to go, I don't see a problem with putting everyone's gold at zero too. So everyone starts from scratch there too.

Now as for the tokenpart:
There are people ingame who have gained their tokens the 'legal' way, who have done quests or have gained their tokens through other ways (rp-contests-imm quests- etc) all by their hard work. Some have stored their  tokens so once they have the time, they can start with building a house. Some have just reached enough tokens to get the house they wanted and now if this pwipe goes through, all their efforts was for nothing. So yes, I  can see the point where those people no longer care. Those people will be punished for a system that didn't work and/or because of people abusing bugs or hoarding tokens.

And yes, it's easy to say to redo those quests. But has it occured that not everyone has the time or energy to just recreate their character and level it to the state they are now?

Every person plays this game differently, there's those who don't mind the mindless killing of mobs, who have different alts running around, who don't mind to start over and over again. And yes, those people won't mind  a pwipe and will redo the quests to regain what they have lost.

But not everyone plays that way, there's people who instead of putting time and energy into leveling, have put time and energy into their character and the socializing gameplay instead.

Those characters have been formed by situations that have happened in the mud, the history of 4d, by deciding which clan to join, by the rp'ing and interaction with other characters that have happened. Those characters  gained their wealth to build a house, to get a mount, in a more relaxed state and have seriously thought about what to do with that wealth. Some of them, go with the equipment they find ingame, and don't even bother to  go for the quests to give them the best item ingame. They don't mind that it takes months/years to collect what they need, as long as once they have collected it, they can actually spend it on what they had in mind.

And now if a complete pwipe would happen, you'll just delete the complete history of those characters. A character that probably is a friend to the person that is really behind the character. And yes again, you can say:  recreate. I can perfectly understand that people I mentioned in the last 'category' won't bother, they have spend months if not years, to be where they are now and now it would just be thrown away. Most of them probably  don't even care about the hack&slash or to be the first to solve a hard quest to get the best DR-item.

But to just delete all tokens/houses/mounts that those people worked hard for, with the idea that they'd finally have something in the mud that would fit their character and RP goes too far for me. Those houses have a  history behind them, the reason they were build has put a mark on 4d and the characters that made those houses possible.

Regain them tokens and buy the house again, you'll say? See my reason above, they play differently, at another pace.

Conclusion finding a solution that will fit each individual is very unlikely and no matter what the outcome of this thread will be, there will always be people who disagree, especially since different people, play the  game differently and focus on another part of the game to accomplish the goal they have set for them in here.


Uh yeah, if you thought I was finished think again ;-)


I know some people have already mentioned: it's all or nothing but what about the following:

Characterwise:
Do not delete the characters, just put them all at level 1 again, that leaves the history of the character intact. And yes, the difference between deleting/recreating them and setting them back at 1 is minimum, it's the  thought behind it (I'm sure there's at least a few people in 4d who will understand what I mean with this). People can continue where they left off socialwise, as those who just want the h&s can continue their way too.

One more thing though. If the characters are put back at one, also make sure their original stats are being put the same as a new player has them now. Over the years, some older characters still have badly rolled stats to begin with.

Goldwise:
Put everyone's cash the same as every newly created character.

Tokenwise:
Those with a house: keep their house (max 1) but lose all other tokens. (So that would also mean, lose them tokens that are not stored in the 'tokenbank'.)
Those without a house: let them keep their tokens with a max of 5 gold or whatever the price of a basic house will be, if it gets lowered.

Equipment & perzeswise:
Let the player keep whatever the player is wearing/wielding/holding. Delete all the other stuff including the inventory. (If that is easy to do.)
This way a person that only logs on a couple of times in a trimester and has no clue about the pwipe, can still continue to explore with the eq they have. They do not need to spend their time at regathering stuff that  would make them leave at once because they already have limited time to spend on the mud in the first place.

Even if this means that certain people keep items they have not gained themselves. How long would it take for them to get the item again some other way?

Content of Houses:
Keep the furniture/chests/whatever that was made with the house but delete all other content.

Anyway, just another option ontop of all the others. I know it's an all or nothing pwipe. But maybe the above solution, will let people, who care more about their character and its history, make them  more willing to stick around and try out the changes rather than seeing them completely leave with a complete pwipe.

[Xeriuth]

I like a lot of your suggestions Diandra, there are a few things I see that should be changed somehow. If someone has all their equipment, they are wielding, wearing, holding, etc, do they have all the flags to appropriately wearing them, or are we not doing away with the flags? And if we are not doing away with the flags and we have gotten rid of all of everyones tokens then how will they buy back the extra houses, perzes, etc they have with no quests left to earn tokens. Or if flags are removed wouldn't most of the equipment poof anyways? And then what was the point in keeping it? You'll have to redo those quests all over again anyhows.

Again what constitutes a house? One crashproof room and only 3 rooms? What if that person builds a 50 rooms mansion, that they put all that time into and slaved away, etc, I'm sure you get the picture. Do they keep all the rooms, or just a select 3? Also do you keep the current level the house is so all of the servants, and pets, and furntiture, and scripts, and mounts one has also spent a lot of time on can stay? Afterall, all are part of the house and add to the house.. the house wouldn't be the same without them. ..... To fix that do we just give them 3 rooms and cp room and they have to buy back everything else? Slowly tack on each room by room, each script by script, servant by servant, etc?

If people don't mind and everyone can keep their houses how they are minus the contents of the CP room, except for bought furniture.. even though some will have a much more stately house than others. Then we can just do that.

Now we could keep your idea just everyone is placed in a safezone they can stay at forever until they get bored or suceded and walk into the DT at the end, and re-incarnate persay and start a new life. Just a thought.

In all it's hard to meet everyones needs. There does need to be compromises. But how can you actually divide anything?

[Virisin]

Like Anubis, I think it should be all or nothing, but I certainly see the merits of what Diandra suggests, and would even be quite happy with that situation myself as long as there were one addition to what she suggests: do not delete quest flags if you are leaving people with houses. It will lead to people being able to get more tokens than they otherwise should. If people keep a set of equipment and a house, they need to keep all their quest flags.

We would still have to work out if perzes would be kept, and how many rooms and scripts in houses could be kept.

[Asmoday]

Hey
Ok , first i didn't agree with this whole pwipe thing , but after reading and reading pro's and against ideas i think i'v changed my mind into yes , do it . What the hell , i have i don't know , 4-5 chests full with sets of gear.. for what? i can retake it ( if i remember how ) but yeah , i'd do some amazing quests again , if i have the time , and id try to have it . Anyway the thing that bothers me is one single one
perzes . Meaning lets say i have 5 perzes , then before the pwipe , someone should write em down , and whenever i wanna perz something , get it for free , just because i allready had some
so if i have 5 perzes before pwipe , i sould get 5 perzes back , whenever i want on whatever i want
fair neh ?

[Virisin]

Woohoo, support is building.

I don't mind perzes still being in the game, as long as players have to get the item and the tokens back before getting the perz back.

[Asmodeus]

virisin, all you just said was that you should just have someone save the titles of your perzes and reuse them when you want an item perzed

I say be creative and get new stuff :p