Player Wipe (PWipe)

[Virisin]

That should be pretty obvious. Yes you can.

[Tocharaeh]

I first want to be made very clear. I support the pwipe if the mud can truly benefit from it.

I hear lots of talk about inflation, but I'm not entirely clear on how pwiping everyone including their quest flags can prevent this. Here is what I'm talking about.

The Dodo Bird has done every known major quest possible, and has recorded all information regarding these quests, and thus can run through them all again very quickly. He has the gear now, and has perzed everything. He is also privy to token farming spots where he can easily earn whatever he needs.

Dodo Bird has now been pwiped.

Dodo Bird still has all information and all he needs to do is level, and re-earn everything with ease. He is also aware of how to avoid major hazards to get wherever he needs to go. He knows all of the tricks, and top notch areas for prime leveling along with appropriate eq for every 10-20 lvl increase increments.

How does this stop inflation? Personally I don't think it does. All it means is that you've slowed Dodo Bird down slightly, but once he is where he wants to be, he'll take off again, and BAM, he has everything at his fingertips, meanwhile, the lesser experienced/quest oriented players will still be where they were before they pwiped.

To be honest if you keep the perzes as they are, and keep the quest flags to prevent the players from re-doing the quests and getting equal reward of what they had already earned in the past...

Keep the flags, and you prevent the players from taking advantage of everything that they have already done. Unless you're going to change quests themselves individually to make sure us experienced players don't earn so much so fast, wiping our perzes and making us re-earn everything isn't really going to change much at all. In fact, because a lot of us HAVE written everything down, HAVE mapped everything, and so on...we're just going to earn things THAT much faster than before because we know the who, what, where of the major quests and once we're of proper "strength" to tackle them...we'll beat the zone faster than the others. The only wrench in our gears would be the tedious leveling, that's all.

If you just make us re-earn them..it still doesn't change the fact that hey, now we have multiples of a one timer.

I'm not sure how this will actually fix inflation. Just keep our gear, keep the flags where they are. Set our gold to 0. Leave our tokens be, or cut them down by half. Leave rp rewards alone, and keep people who are married, married along with keeping their rings.

If you keep everything people have already paid for then all that is changed is that we're in a new system without being completely messed over. No new additional tokens can be earned because we've already earned them. Our FLAGS dictate what we can access now, and so long as you keep those flags, we'll be prevented from taking advantage of everything we already have previous knowledge of.

I hope this made sense.

Like I said, I'm for a pwipe, but for the right reasons. Wiping everything won't prevent inflation because we already have mastery over quest knowledge..so we can recall it at any point in time and earn things that much faster.

Now if you want us to not be able to USE the perzes until a certain level, hey, put a min level requirement on them. that will make things better. We can't take advantage of what gear we do have, and everything is hunky dory. I'm down with not being able to use what I've already paid for until a certain level. Doesn't hurt me none. What hurts me is that you're taking OUR investments, and wiping the slate clean. This isn't about "printing more money", this is about not screwing your shareholders.

[Virisin]

Inflation is not related to quest knowledge. Gold inflation is mostly because of places like Prehistoric Forest and Dark Planet which used to have mobs dropping millions of coins each. This has been fixed. There have also been more gold sinks added to the game. Token inflation is mostly because of things like farming and lumber-jacking as well as old duplicate bugs. This has been fixed.

With a PWipe we could also fix the other broken aspects of the economy, it is very hard to fix the economy once it is already broken by simply adding more gold sinks and things in order to remove players gold. The trainer system, for instance, is an annoying equation that has a whole bundle of multipliers depending on level, tier, remorts, etc.. It is a rather nice gold sink, but it's actually not all that easy to gain gold anymore, and it's possibly too expensive now. Same with recover costs. This hasn't actually affected the people it was intended at overly, Xeriuth still has 30 billion coins. He probably hasn't even remorted once since the trainer system, and so hasn't been affected by it at all. I doubt he dies all that often either, rendering high recovery costs fairly useless too.

Yes, a gold wipe would help solve this, and yes we do have solutions to prevent future inflation including balancing the cost of consumables with the money supply. This is why we want to PWipe, to fix the economy.

Now, even though you mixed up your whole post and I think you might be somehow referring to equipment inflation (correct me if I'm wrong), I think that was a simple mistake on your part and I will now address the issues you have, which are unrelated to the economy.

Dodo Bird still has all information and all he needs to do is level, and re-earn everything with ease. He is also aware of how to avoid major hazards to get wherever he needs to go. He knows all of the tricks, and top notch areas for prime leveling along with appropriate eq for every 10-20 lvl increase increments.

Yes indeed, Dodo Bird is a good player and will do very well after a PWipe. I am very happy to see him or her prosper. Dodo Bird reminds me of Hayato, of Xeriuth, of myself. I am fairly sure Dodo Bird welcomes these changes because Dodo Bird sounds like someone that would love to play in a properly balanced game.

we're just going to earn things THAT much faster than before because we know the who, what, where of the major quests and once we're of proper "strength" to tackle them...we'll beat the zone faster than the others. The only wrench in our gears would be the tedious leveling, that's all.

Exactly, it's really not that hard at all. Good old Dodo Bird has a huge advantage over others, and benefits greatly for his hard work in the past. In fact, the only people that are hurt by a loss of all equipment are those that don't remember how to get the equipment, or never really knew in the first place and just followed their friends around in the quests and then perzed the item - cementing their ability to never have to think about that quest again. You refer to 'tedious leveling', I also dislike leveling to a certain extent but it will always have a place in 4d and I am content with that. You yourself were actually content with that earlier in this thread, when you mentioned wanting to lock up 'Tocharaeh' and play as an alternative character anyway. You didn't mind being set back to level 1, it was the equipment that bothered you - so I'll continue to focus on equipment and not levels.

As Horus has already pointed out, there is no good reason to keep anything other than sentimental value and attachment to your character as it is now. Any kind of half-assed attempt at a PWipe will end badly, there will always be people who draw the short straw.. It is extremely hard to find some FAIR solution that will satisfy everyone. In your own solution I can already find fault: allowing everyone to keep flags and then setting gold by 0 and cutting tokens in half does not affect the people it is aimed at. Xeriuth and Hayato still have 10+ gold tokens left over, and already have houses and things and so nothing to spend it on. However, poor old Dodo Bird junior has finally saved up 4 gold tokens and is so close to buying a house, only to be cut back to 2 gold tokens and still have all his flags so his potential gold token limit was just cut by 2 gold tokens, meaning it's going to be ever harder for him to afford a house. His only solution is to recreate, however forcing Dodo Bird junior to recreate because you want to keep some of your stuff is not fair.

Honestly, the mud truly CAN benefit from a complete PWipe, and any halfassed measure will simply lead to more problems in the future. A revitalization is needed.

[Vivek]

I support the houses costs one timer. I'm not forget the tedious leveling, that's all.

In fact, because of everything that has recorded all that will make sure how this made sense. Like I first want to re-earn everything at overly, Xeriuth still doesn't change quests and thus can be honest if you have multiples of the crashproof element. Then you keep the slate clean. This has been more money", this made sense. Like I support the quest flags where they are, and keep everything people have already earned because we do have, and earn things that often either, rendering high recovery costs fairly useless too. The houses is also been pwiped. Dodo Bird has been fixed. With a one gold.

The houses will still be the quests and it's actually fix inflation. Just keep people it would be downright stupid to the rest is what I've already paid for the drain. Another thing to get wherever he is that hey, now been fixed. There have to have mastery over quest flags where they have multiples of everything with ease. He is also fix inflation. Just keep our gold to get them all that we're of things that went on.


-Vivek

[Virisin]

You strike a good point there, Vivek. I will ponder further.

[Once]

If you ask me, most of you are being about as logical and well reasoned as Vivek here.


Read up on Opportunity Cost and Macroeconomic theories.

HINT: Knowing which quests to solve has nothing whatsoever to do with inflation. That's like claiming that since you know carpentry and can earn a wage the USD will just get inflated again.

A pwipe coupled with proper rebalancing can lead to a well structured economy with reasonable inputs and reasonable sinks for each of the currencies to ensure things are both fun and that a vibrant economy can be established.

If you're still feeling apprehensive about the pwipe after reading this, ask yourself:

Are you actually playing rather than socializing now anyway?

Do you think having a reason to actively play would make the game more enjoyable and less of a chatroom?

[Jason Orsini]

the scimitar had nothing to do with my vote.
fuck the scimitar i still vote no a big fat NO

[Virisin]

This obviously means you have other cheat-items lying around, eh?

Could you please give me more substance to work with Jason? I know you have some reasons for not wanting a PWipe after you said this:

Jason says, 'hell I would have give the scimitar and all my tokens to charity if that meant the pwipe would go downhill'

Maybe you'll say something that hasn't been said before and actually convince people, as it is though, that kind of argument really works against you to be honest. Stubborn conservatism is not very persuasive.

[Virisin]

Ok after talking to Jason online, I realize he hasn't even read the thread and doesn't even realize he's voting the wrong way. He's actually a 'depends' voter not a 'no', he wants to lose his levels and gold and tokens, he just wants to keep his houses and equipment and perzes and quest flags. I wish I could get him to read the thread though, I think he might even move to a full yes vote if he did.

[Natalya B.]

I left this thread alone for a few days because I came to realize I was getting far too wrapped up in a game.

Here's a revised "two cents" from my part.

I don't really care anymore about the pwipe. I never cared about losing money or tokens at all, that wasn't even a factor for me, because I dont have any use for them at all, and making coin is relatively easy if you put the time in.

My reasons were nostalgic, yes. I've been here a long time, despite my breaks, and there have been times, numerous pwipes, recreations, returning arrivals, etc, where I - and others - have had to pay for the same things we already paid for over and over and over again.

I still maintain a total pwipe does seem like a bit of a punishment, and I agree with some of Toch's postings. Let's face it, I clearly have some kind of 'fondness' for 4D. Despite the crap, and despite the fact some people on here remember how much of an idiotic child I used to be, I still like to come back and see whats what and join in. I would love to be more of a part of the mud, the gaming environment, if I had the time.

By the same token though, and this goes a bit off track but it's still linked, toch says something along the lines of "So, you're going to pwipe and delete everything we've done repeatedly, after all the time and effort we've sunk into a game that is barely entertaining and not one for customer service?".

I'm sorry. I love some of you IMMs and all, but I have to agree. You guys pick and choose what cases you solve and what you don't. Rules are bent per person, things are let slide that you probably know shouldn't slide. When something isn't a players fault, or when something is deleted or bugged or changed, many times are we told to simply go fix it ourselves, or go get the item again. So, because you guys want to do something, whether it's a pwipe, or a change to the items, every single player has to PAY for that change? Imagine for a moment if we had 50, 100, 200+ players, and you keep pwiping, or changing items, or quests, or scripts, or things get bugged, or situations get fucked with, and every single time every player is told we have to go through it all again. HOW on earth would you think you'd keep that playerbase? Are you high? Have you not wondered why years ago we had a decent playerbase, but now we have barely anyone? Of course, just pin EVERYTHING down to needing a pwipe, and forget about the players. That solves everything.

This is not how games work. I play another online game, called Rappelz. I have a 143 Battle Summoner on there with some of the best gears in the game (it's not really a quest game, its more pvp orientated). It's free to play. But if anything gets scammed, deleted, bugged, we are not simply expected to go get it again ourselves, or go use our money, or our time, to replace everything we've spent years getting. No. It is replaced. Fixed. (Admittabely through a very tedious process of emails and discussions with GMs, but it IS usually sorted).

If we are harassed in that game, it is dealt with, professionally, with warnings, and then bannings ranging from 3 days to 30 days to permanent. It's dealt with mutings. If that game were to turn around and delete everyones stuff just because it wanted to upgrade, when our gears and such could be easily restored, well... I don't even know what to say? It wouldn't happen, because it's retarded, and they'd lose HUNDREDS of people.

I know 4D is obviously on a much smaller scale, nonetheless the principle still does apply. This game is a service, of sorts, and I know many people find themselves wondering why they stick around at all. For me, it's only because of the nostalgia, and because I just don't care. It's just a game.

However, that argument can be easily used against me. "It's just a game, so why should I care if there's a pwipe". Firstly, I do think it's a bit of a lazy way to do things when there are clearly other alternatives and compromises, even Xeriuth came up with some decent ideas (I thought). Convince yourself that a total pwipe is the ONLY way to fix EVERYTHING thats wrong with the mud. That must be the way to do it.

I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong. If you want to keep players, get some customer service going. Improvements are great, but if you're not going to support the efforts of the players that stick around to support you, there is no point.

I will most likely visit after said pwipe, but I maintain I won't be playing, for reasons previously mentioned (IE, currently I have the ability to log in and randomly level and have fun. If that's gone, well... I'm not going to be another level 50 tier 1 newbie with a star next to my name just chilling at recall).

PS: I *hate* the idea of level-based equipment. That's always been an instant turn-off for me in any game I've tried playing. There is definitely no way in hell I'd bother playing again if THAT happened.

[Virisin]

I don't really care anymore about the pwipe.

My reasons were nostalgic, yes. I've been here a long time, despite my breaks, and there have been times, numerous pwipes, recreations, returning arrivals, etc, where I - and others - have had to pay for the same things we already paid for over and over and over again.

2 PWipes isn't exactly numerous, and recreations or returning arrivals (arn't they the same thing?) are the players own fault. Either way, you make it sound like you've done it plenty of times already, yet you wouldn't do it one more time. Is there some arbitrary line in 4d that's kept secret but everyone knows about? The 'If I Have To Pay For Everything X Amount Of Times, That's It'? With the amount of change in the new system, including quite a large equipment change.. You'd be at a loss not to lose everything. Honestly.

So, because you guys want to do something, whether it's a pwipe, or a change to the items, every single player has to PAY for that change? Imagine for a moment if we had 50, 100, 200+ players, and you keep pwiping, or changing items, or quests, or scripts, or things get bugged, or situations get fucked with, and every single time every player is told we have to go through it all again. HOW on earth would you think you'd keep that playerbase? Are you high? Have you not wondered why years ago we had a decent playerbase, but now we have barely anyone? Of course, just pin EVERYTHING down to needing a pwipe, and forget about the players. That solves everything.

That is a very negative way of thinking about things, what we want to do is completely upgrade everything. And when I say everything I literally mean everything, there will be very few things unchanged after this, the only thing we're forcing the players to do is BENEFIT from the changes, and I'm afraid a PWipe is a good way of doing that.

Funnily enough, wondering that is what lead to all of this. And to be honest, these last few days we've actually had a playerbase getting close to where it once was. 4d never had a huge playerbase, and muds in general have been losing players. The 4d playerbase was actually getting smaller though, before we starting talking about all of this. You'd be surprised how many players are extremely excited about the prospects. We don't actually have all that many oldbies left around to disappoint.

I know 4D is obviously on a much smaller scale, nonetheless the principle still does apply. This game is a service, of sorts, and I know many people find themselves wondering why they stick around at all. For me, it's only because of the nostalgia, and because I just don't care. It's just a game.

I don't believe the principle applies at all. There is a huge difference between large muds and small muds, a PWipe when everything is obviously working well and they have >200 players would be a retarded thing to do.. No one is denying you that, however a PWipe when everything is obviously not working well and we have a playerbase of less <20 is a completely different thing.

I agree with the pwipe, I actually do. By the same token I don't agree with everyone losing everything. I think it's downright wrong.

Understood, however I think you think this more because you're frightened you won't remember where to get all your equipment again. It's essentially a scared and/or lazy feeling (not going to count nostalgic), most of the junk in your houses could easily be destroyed without you minding, you probably know your house needs to be cleared out currently anyway. What you're worried about is the set of equipment you're wearing. It honestly won't take you long to get it back, and it's extremely hard to be fair to everyone if we start wiping some bits of players and leaving other bits, as I mentioned in my reply to Tocharaeh.

I will most likely visit after said pwipe,

I believe 4d is an extremely personal mud, and to be honest I don't think we'd lose anyone after a PWipe. Everyone loves 4d too much to actually leave, they'd still come round and sit at recall. The funny thing is, this is essentially what everyone does currently.

PS: I *hate* the idea of level-based equipment. That's always been an instant turn-off for me in any game I've tried playing. There is definitely no way in hell I'd bother playing again if THAT happened.

Level-based equipment won't happen.

[Tocharaeh]

No offense to Viri or anything, but when are we going to see MORE responses from the IMMs on this thread than a single player who has been pushing  about pwipes for as long as I've been pushing for skill trees?

So far we're seeing only a few people actually post here, and they don't reflect the yes or no votes. This bothers me because I wonder if we're getting newbies who actually don't understand what kind of impact this could really have on the pbase.

While pwipes appear to be a good idea, you really need to take into consideration how much nostalgia ALWAYS plays in a pbase even if Virisin wont admit it. SOMETHING pulls him here.

Be it people, memories, and/or time investments these are all valid claims when something as drastic and highly unfair as complete pwipes.

You say "eq can be bought back with tokens, so nothing is really lost.", well I say to you, why are you wiping my hard earned claim to things I've already invested in because YOU don't have any care as to whether or not you lose something.

Newbies also need to understand that just because they may WANT us all to be on the same playing field, a pwipe isn't going to do that. There will never be a true balance in the game so long as those of us who have been here for longer than a couple months or even 12 years. Hate to break it to you guys but 98% of the pbase is made up of those 9+ years spent players. because of that, you'll never be on the same playing field as us until you've invested more time into the game, learned the areas, learned the eq combos, and mastered the toughest quests in the game.

A lot of us have done that. We have made an investment. 4D provides us with a service, and it would never survive for long if it were dead. Molly voiced this not but a while ago talking about her fears of 4D being shut down if the pbase didn't pick up. So what did I do? Busted my ass to get things thriving again. If activity is accurately PERCEIVED, then there will be a magnet effect. However, if they don't have any nostalgic ties to this game any longer, it is like a dead zone. No connection. 4D should count itself lucky that we still have a very loyal (albeit small) pbase, but I would like to think that every one of you are quality players that most muds would envy.

If you cut those ties, we're going to lose people and loser them quick. Prom has said it, and Natalya has said it. Just because a couple people have voiced it doesn't mean that some who have voted yes, or depends aren't thinking it. If you remove our ownership of things we rightfully own, you're going to find the pbase drop like a lead plate. How do I know this?

I have IMPed, and IMMed for other muds (mostly PK ones) and I've seen the effects of a pwipe, even if some supported it. those some gradually vanished. Why? Because they became bored of trying to reinvest their already spent time into a character they've built up over the years. Pwipes are a great thing when they're done responsibly. What I am seeing right now is the exact opposite.

We need more IMM input, and we need the IMMs to REALLY take time to consider each players point. Things need to be weighed. This is their responsibility as the now lively pbase could return to not but 3 weeks ago, and being in the red zone isn't very fun at all.

My solutions stand as they are, and they have support:
Keep quest flags.
Zap tokens and gold in bank/on hand
Keep perzes, houses, mounts, and furniture as they are. Do not remove ownership.
Keep any and all RP awards as they are.
If you suspicious of "cheater eq", then stat it, and purge it if needed.
If people are married, keep them that way and maintain their rings.

Now if you zap the tokens, and keep the flags as they are on each pfile, what do you think will happen? People who have already previous knowledge of each quest wont be able to reap the rewards. What does this mean? Well, you've zapped our bank accounts, we can reap the rewards of previously won quests...so we're already paying a big price. I'm happy with that, and I know many are too. We'll take the hit so long as we can keep what we rightfully own.

I've said my long winded piece. Can we get an IMM response from all staff rather than from players with a bias? (no offense viri ^^ )

[Kvetch]

I think most of the staff has already replied at least once on this thread.  I've had my 2 cents, just reading what others are saying now so I can "consider everything in the long run".  Yes, that means, I've not actually voted yet.

[Virisin]

Fraid I'm going to have to reply to a couple of these points. Others can feel free to add what they like to it though.

Nostalgia is mainly linked to the mud, not the equipment. People just pretend it's the equipment. Prom said he'd still imm, just not play, Natalya said she'd continue to drop by, just not play, Jason says he'd continue to run his clan, just not play, I don't imagine it'd be any different for you either. No one even plays anymore anyway, so personally I'm not too fussed if a couple people that just sit at recall all day are going to do the same thing after a PWipe.

98% of the playerbase is not made up of players that have spent 9+ years here.. I'm not even that old yet, and I'm one of the oldest left around here, please don't exaggerate so blatantly.

Unfortunately, they'll never be on the same playing field as us even if they invest more time into the game, Jason has about 1k more HP as a Thief than it should be possible for him to get, thanks to old bugs, Xeriuth has about 2k more HP as a Priest than it should be possible for him to get, thanks to old bugs, lots of old players have enchanted weapons that are still 5dr 5hr, these are no longer possible to get. Lots of old players gained houses through lumberjacking, this is no longer possible. I'm afraid it's fairly simple: new players will never reach the level old players are at currently, and it's not because old players have invested 9+ years into the game, it's because old players are lucky enough to have been around for all the best bugs.

4d was indeed on the brink of shutting down I think, our playerbase was dismal and the players we did have never did anything anyway. Hence why 4d had to be open to almost any changes if it might mean more players. To be honest I don't believe you 'busted your ass to get things thriving again' other than arguing about skill trees with people like Estidn.

What Prom and Nat and Jason have said is that they won't play anymore, they will still come around. And in Prom's case, he will just code. I see nothing different to what is happening now.

Your solutions as they stand are not really your solutions, it's exactly what I suggested earlier in this thread as a compromise that was shot down when you guys wanted to just lock away your characters for a while. And don't simply say 'and they have support' in bold trying to convince people if that is not the solution that is chosen we will lose everyone that gives that 'support' to that solution. You have You, Natalya, Jason, Riley, Prom(?), Diandra(?)... As opposed to myself, Hayato, Xeriuth, Once, Anubis, Molly, Asmoday, Britnoth, Thotter, Asmodeus, Tynian and I forget the rest that are on whichever side. The poll quite clearly shows which option has more support.

'Your' solution I have already addressed in the last Dodo Bird posts, which you don't seem to have responded to. It will create just as many aggravated players as any other half-assed solution.

Please stop just repeating the same stuff over and over again, we understand where you're coming from, we've read all of the points you continue to make multiple times, and addressed 99% of them. You don't seem to actually respond to anything anyone has said. If you can come up with a solution that WILL satisfy everybody, and will not leave a lot of players aggravated they randomly had all their tokens zapped when lots of players got to keep their non-liquid tokens (houses) then feel free to post it, otherwise it's beginning to get fairly repetitive.

[Tocharaeh]

SO you're saying you haven't been here since 2000? If not, you're one of the oldest? I beg to differ

Let's see, I think Sarias has been here since 2002/3.
Riley earlier than Sarias I believe, but not by much.
Siresee, I remember when she was a newb. And she came not too long after me.
Emory, see above.
Tynian 1998, about the same time as me, a tad later. We became DJ assassins together.
Jason not too much later than that I think.
Belgarion, about the same as me. though now he's all invis and stuff. I may be wrong, maybe  a tad later than me..or earlier. I dun
              remember.
Xeriuth= ??
Hayato = ??
Yvei = He's popped in and out of here since 1999! I know because he's my little brother and I got him into mudding.
Once dates back to me.
Turin dates back to be.
Kvetch = hrm, 2004 maybe, correct me if i'm wrong kvetchie.
I would need numbers from Asmoday, and Asmodeus, but I think 2001/2ish for them. I could be wrong.
Natalya = ??
Virisin dates back to what? = You say you've not been here since 2000, so WHEN did you come here?

So we're really looking at what...7+ years? Nice. Not much of an exaggeration so far as I can tell. I ball parked it, I didn't exaggerate.


your opinions are your own, even if they're very STRONG ones. but listen. You cannot just say something is worth nothing when CLEARLY it is worth SOMETHING to someone. You're willing to cut your losses pbase wise to get what you want? That is not what playing and investing time into 4D is about. People didn't create chars, and build histories here to get screwed in the end.

So instead of debating how long the majority has been here, and whether or not something actual means anything to anyone. Let's have an actual constructive debate rather than bashing one's words time and time again. Viri, I hate to say it but your constant replies to every single post on here is more counter productive than anything. It is your idea, now leave it up to others to get their words in. Namely the IMMs.

btw- why do we have 20+ votes, and only like 5 people actually POSTING?